On Salvation

[A Brethren IN CHRIST]

agreed..faith then works

 

[Ken]

works are the fruit.. not the root...

 

[Lotar]

works are the fruit.. not the root...

 

[Florida College]

I already pointed out that that Abram was accounted righteous simply for believing. And God KNOWS his people, He knew what Abraham would do. And consider this: Abraham was told by God to leave his father's house back in Genesis 12 - and Abraham didn't, not for years - not til his father died. God's punishment? none.

My point about Abraham is that Abraham’s faith prompted him to obey God when he was given a command. I believe that he obeyed God when he was instructed to leave Ur (Gen. 11:31-12:5 ; Acts 7:2-4 ; Heb. 11:8).

As I read your comments about Abraham, I am left with the distinct impression that Abraham delayed in obeying God? Is that indeed what you are trying to say, or am I mistaken? I understand from reading the various texts that Abraham left Ur and spent some time in Haran while on the way to Canaan. Terah died in Haran (Gen. 11:32).

Later in Abraham’s life, God commanded him to offer Isaac as a sacrifice. Abraham obeyed God (Gen. 22:1-19. The extent of Abraham’s faith is given in Heb. 11:17-19. James 2:21-24 uses this event to show the relationship of faith and works i.e. - - 22 & 24.

Ephesians 2:8 - 9, "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God; not of works, lest any man should boast." If faith is works, then this verse needs to be rewritten to: 'for by grace are saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is a gift of God: not of works except the work of faith, lest any man boast - except in his faith.' This verse shows that faith is not part of works.

The verse is just fine the way that it is written. Faith is a work (John 6:28-29). Eph. 2:8-9 is simply discussing works that one could boast about. God has produced all the evidence to generate faith. It is up to each person to accept the evidence. When a person believes, there is no room for boasting (Lk. 17:7-10).

That faith is not works is not the least contrary to John 6:28-29.
Jhn 6:28 Therefore they said to Him, "What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God?"
Jhn 6:29 Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent."

Now, Whose works are they? And consider these verses:
Jhn 6:44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.
Jhn 6:45 "It is written in the prophets, 'AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT OF GOD.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me.

Jhn 6:37 "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.

Jhn 6:39 "This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day.

Jhn 6:65 And He was saying, "For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father."
See the Father's role - He draws us, He teaches, He grants to us to come to Jjesus, and He gives us to Jesus. He knows who beleives and who doesn't really believe.

After considering all that you have said about John 6:28-29, here is what I still don’t understand: the Jews ask a question in verse 28, “What shall we do, that we may work the work of God?” I understand Jesus’ response in verse 29 to be, “This is the work of God [This is what God wants you to do], that you believe in Him whom He sent.” I think the key to understanding this verse is focusing on this key phrase - - “you believe in Him.” Belief is something that each individual is responsible for. God gives the evidence, but it is up to each individual to believe it. "Believe in him." This is what the Lord would have us do. Note Peter's response in vs. 69, "We have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." God gave the evidence, but it was up to each person whether or not to believe it.

Hbr 9:15 For this reason He is the mediator of a new covenant, so that, since a death has taken place for the redemption of the transgressions that were {committed} under the first covenant, those who have been called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.
Hbr 9:16 For where a covenant is, there must of necessity be the death of the one who made it.
Hbr 9:17 For a covenant is valid {only} when men are dead, for it is never in force while the one who made it lives.

The fact remains that the thief was on his cross for a crime, which isn't following any law, and he was forgiven for believing in Jesus Christ. Since his belief was in the mediator of the New Covenant, I beleive that a case could be made that he in the new Covennant - but it's a moot point.
He was saved because he believed. Not on the basis of works.

The thief on the cross was also saved while the law of Moses was in effect. Jesus testament was not yet in effect (Heb. 9:15-17).

Jesus had power on earth to forgive sins (Mark 2:1-12). Before we conclude that faith is all that is necessary for salvation today, it would be wise to examine others scriptures to make sure that we have not overlooked anything under Jesus’ testament that is required for salvation i.e. Acts 2:38 (yes, I read your point about the verse and I will deal with it when I get to that particular post) ; Acts 17:30 ; Acts 8:35-39 ; Acts 16:30-33 ; Acts 22:16.

But God's grace is seen throughout the whole bible - how many times did he forgive Israel? Isn't the fact that through the person of Jesus Christ, God himself made atonement for sin evidence of His grace? That the Tablets were put inside the Ark and the mercy seat put on top is also evidence of God's grace, for as James also says, "mercy triumphs over judgement."

By grace, the OT saints were saved through faith in a God's promise of the Seed of Abraham. Since Christ, we are saved by grace through faith in the realized promise of the Seed - Jesus Christ.

Grace (or favor) starts as early as Gen. 6:8. God’s favor (or grace) was apparent on individuals and nations throughout the Old and New Testament books. But I still do not see grace as being the emphasis of Hebrews chapter 11. Rather, faith is being emphasized.

And I believe you need to read scripture and interpret it IN CONTEXT.
Jhn 8:24 "Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am {He,} you will die in your sins."
That verse is talking about believing in Jesus as Messiah for eternal life, not about 'works'.

Look at the wording of John 8:24. "Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am {He,} you will die in your sins." Jesus direct statement told them (and us) that faith is up to the individual person - - "unless you believe . . . you will die." Belief is a work that we do. It is the work that God would have us do (John 6:28-29).

Jhn 12:42 Nevertheless many even of the rulers believed in Him, but because of the Pharisees they were not confessing {Him,} for fear that they would be put out of the synagogue;
Jhn 12:43 for they loved the approval of men rather than the approval of God.

Your answer is right there, really - they 'beleived', but not really, for they loved the approval of man over God. Again, there is no salvation for them unless God approves. I refer you again to John 6.

What is this stuff about “they believed, but not really.” Where is that in John 12:42-43? It is not there. They believed, but would not confess the Lord. Therefore, they were not approved of God. If "faith only" is necessary to please God, why did these rulers that had faith (that is what the verse says) not please God?

James 2:17 "Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone."
The book of James needs to be understood in light of all of scripture - and frequently I see it taken on it's own, outside of the rest of scripture and abused somewhat. As I stated, what we learn from James is that true faith is evidenced by our behaviour and deeds. This is a concept supported by the rest of scripture.

Your observations about James 2 are somewhat different than mine. I normally see most people totally ignore the latter part of the chapter. Usually, when I mention James 2:14-26, I am immediately referred to Eph. 2:8-9. But shouldn’t we believe “all scripture” (2 Tim. 3:16-17)? Each verse should be understood in its context, and then the understanding checked for harmony. I do not practice or teach salvation by works, but do practice and teach that we must work (obey God) in order to receive salvation (Heb. 5:8-9).

Let's put it this way: a person hears the gospel, says a prayer of repentence, asks Jesus into his heart one night...and then goes on to live a totally Godless life and never thinks of Christ again. Is he saved? no.God looks into the heart, sees the true intent, and has to grant salvation to the person. Afterall, it is God who forgives, and cleanses and seals with the Holy Spirit. Do you think an omnipotent, omniscient God can look at this person and know it isn't sincere? I do. ]

I agree - - God is all-powerful and all-knowing and looks upon the heart of the sinner coming to him. But what does one have to do to be saved? Is faith necessary? Is repentance necessary? Is confession necessary? Is baptism necessary? I think we are in agreement that faith prompts one to act. So, which of these commands do we have to obey in order to be saved?

and again, the demons know who Jesus is and temble - but there is no hope for them. there is no salvation plan for them. They believed while in God's presence, but didn't have the faith to stick with God over Satan. To make an analogy, it's like a person who says he believes in Jesus and makes lipservice about it, but never has evidence of it in his life. He doesn't truly believe, and he isn't saved - for God knows the true intent of the heart. Salvation is not at the whim of man, but granted to us from God upon true repentence and belief.

Free,

This reasoning does not fit the context of James 2:14-26 at all. Faith must be coupled with works (vs. 18). The demons have faith (vs. 19). Faith without works is dead (vs. 20). That is the extent of the illustration concerning demons.

I am reading your posts. They are lengthy. I will be responding to them as I get to them. I am reading and carefully considering every one of them. I ask only that you do the same.

You have said that I am snippy and offensive, and that I can't read a scripture in its context. I have no such foolish charges to make to you. I will let those who read the posts make their own determinations.

FC

 

[A Brethren IN CHRIST]

My point about Abraham is that Abraham’s faith prompted him to obey God when he was given a command. I believe that he obeyed God when he was instructed to leave Ur (Gen. 11:31-12:5 ; Acts 7:2-4 ; Heb. 11:8).

As I read your comments about Abraham, I am left with the distinct impression that Abraham delayed in obeying God? Is that indeed what you are trying to say, or am I mistaken? I understand from reading the various texts that Abraham left Ur and spent some time in Haran while on the way to Canaan. Terah died in Haran (Gen. 11:32). \
Lot his brother son gen 12:5 after in Gen 12:1 get thee away from thy kindred ...


who is Lot ...his kindred

Later in Abraham’s life, God commanded him to offer Isaac as a sacrifice. Abraham obeyed God (Gen. 22:1-19. The extent of Abraham’s faith is given in Heb. 11:17-19. James 2:21-24 uses this event to show the relationship of faith and works i.e. - - 22 & 24.[/color]



The verse is just fine the way that it is written. Faith is a work (John 6:28-29). Eph. 2:8-9 is simply discussing works that one could boast about. God has produced all the evidence to generate faith. It is up to each person to accept the evidence. When a person believes, there is no room for boasting (Lk. 17:7-10).



After considering all that you have said about John 6:28-29, here is what I still don’t understand: the Jews ask a question in verse 28, “What shall we do, that we may work the work of God?” I understand Jesus’ response in verse 29 to be, “This is the work of God [This is what God wants you to do], that you believe in Him whom He sent.” I think the key to understanding this verse is focusing on this key phrase - - “you believe in Him.”
In context it is God's work to have you believe not yours...... funny how you argue with simple english

Belief is something that each individual is responsible for. God gives the evidence, but it is up to each individual to believe it. "Believe in him." This is what the Lord would have us do. Note Peter's response in vs. 69, "We have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." God gave the evidence, but it was up to each person whether or not to believe it.



The thief on the cross was also saved while the law of Moses was in effect. Jesus testament was not yet in effect (Heb. 9:15-17).

Jesus had power on earth to forgive sins (Mark 2:1-12). Before we conclude that faith is all that is necessary for salvation today, it would be wise to examine others scriptures to make sure that we have not overlooked anything under Jesus’ testament that is required for salvation i.e. Acts 2:38 (yes, I read your point about the verse and I will deal with it when I get to that particular post) ; Acts 17:30 ; Acts 8:35-39 ; Acts 16:30-33 ; Acts 22:16.



Grace (or favor) starts as early as Gen. 6:8. God’s favor (or grace) was apparent on individuals and nations throughout the Old and New Testament books. But I still do not see grace as being the emphasis of Hebrews chapter 11. Rather, faith is being emphasized.



Look at the wording of John 8:24. "Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am {He,} you will die in your sins." Jesus direct statement told them (and us) that faith is up to the individual person - - "unless you believe . . . you will die." Belief is a work that we do. It is the work that God would have us do (John 6:28-29).



What is this stuff about “they believed, but not really.” Where is that in John 12:42-43? It is not there. They believed, but would not confess the Lord. Therefore, they were not approved of God. If "faith only" is necessary to please God, why did these rulers that had faith (that is what the verse says) not please God?



Your observations about James 2 are somewhat different than mine. I normally see most people totally ignore the latter part of the chapter. Usually, when I mention James 2:14-26, I am immediately referred to Eph. 2:8-9. But shouldn’t we believe “all scripture” (2 Tim. 3:16-17)? Each verse should be understood in its context, and then the understanding checked for harmony. I do not practice or teach salvation by works, but do practice and teach that we must work (obey God) in order to receive salvation (Heb. 5:8-9).

titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy, He saved us by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Spirit


2 tim 1:9 who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began...Eph 1:4


I agree - - God is all-powerful and all-knowing and looks upon the heart of the sinner coming to him. But what does one have to do to be saved?Romans 4:5 Is faith necessary? Gal 5:22 Is repentance necessary? romans 4:5 Is confession necessary?romans 4:5 Is baptism necessary?1 cor 12:13 I think we are in agreement that faith prompts one to act. So, which of these commands do we have to obey in order to be saved? NONE ....GOD DID ALL THE WORK ...why do we get crowns and throw back the crown back to God ....saying thou art worthy .........[thus saying we do not deserve this ....you do.]



Free,

This reasoning does not fit the context of James 2:14-26 at all. Faith must be coupled with works (vs. 18). The demons have faith (vs. 19). Faith without works is dead (vs. 20). That is the extent of the illustration concerning demons.

Demons got to meet face to face with the Lord thus that is by sight thus soulish believe like in exodus 4:30-31 that the Jews had and forgot about in exodus 6:9 since it was not spiritual belief

thus the demons did not have faith since that is Heb 11:1

I am reading your posts. They are lengthy. I will be responding to them as I get to them. I am reading and carefully considering every one of them. I ask only that you do the same.

You have said that I am snippy and offensive, and that I can't read a scripture in its context. I have no such foolish charges to make to you. I will let those who read the posts make their own determinations. I ditto his comments

FC

 

[western kentucky]

A Brethren,

You always turn to Romans 4:5 to rule out obedience.....

In Romans 4, "works" and "obedience" are different ideas.

In Romans 4:4, the "worker" is referred to as a man who God owes a debt because he earns his task flawlessly (grace is removed). In Rom. 4:5, the "non - worker" is the man to whom God owes nothing because he failed in his task.

In this chapter, Paul is approaching: One who claims to be righteous because he has done enough..... Paul's answer: Works is not the basis for justification.

This is the only way that Rom. 4:5 can be in harmony with the rest of the bible. How else could you harmonize Rom. 4:5 and James 2:17. I would like for you to explain that to me.

James 2:14-26 is a passage that approaches a different problem. Problem faced: One who claims to be righteous without doing anything. Answer: Works is the means for justifcation.

If 1 Cor. 12:13 is the baptism that Eph. 4:5 is talking about... then what about Acts 8:25-40. In previous discussions, I have explained myself enough regarding my position. Now, it is your turn to do the explaining. How do you "harmonize" 1 Cor. 12:13 and Acts 8:25-40?

 

[A Brethren IN CHRIST]

).

titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy, He saved us by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Spirit


2 tim 1:9 who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began...Eph 1:4



you for got these verses western kentucky

 

[FreeinChrist]

My point about Abraham is that Abraham’s faith prompted him to obey God when he was given a command. I believe that he obeyed God when he was instructed to leave Ur (Gen. 11:31-12:5 ; Acts 7:2-4 ; Heb. 11:8).

As I read your comments about Abraham, I am left with the distinct impression that Abraham delayed in obeying God? Is that indeed what you are trying to say, or am I mistaken? I understand from reading the various texts that Abraham left Ur and spent some time in Haran while on the way to Canaan. Terah died in Haran (Gen. 11:32).

I was studying this recently and because of some related scripture, we came to the conclusion, as I remember it, that he delayed. But that is not obvious in Genesis 12 or clearly stated, so I will back off that point. However, God did say, "Go forth from your country, and from your relatives, and from your father's house..." and Abraham took Lot, a relative. He didn't obey to the letter. Then later he goes to Eygpt, pretends he isn't married to Sarai, and didn't speak up when Pharoah took Sarai as wife....and God did not punish Abram, but punished Pharoah.
Then, after the covenant God made with Abram in Genesis 15, where he is accounted righteous, Abraham takes Hagar - helping God along, I suppose. And God did not punish him. Just said no, it will be with Sarai. But what do you think of that 'work'?

Later in Abraham’s life, God commanded him to offer Isaac as a sacrifice. Abraham obeyed God (Gen. 22:1-19. The extent of Abraham’s faith is given in Heb. 11:17-19. James 2:21-24 uses this event to show the relationship of faith and works i.e. - - 22 & 24.

Jam 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar?
Jam 2:22 You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected;
Jam 2:23 and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "AND ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS," and he was called the friend of God.
Jam 2:24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.
This passage includes that Abraham believed and was reckoned as righteous. Let's look at the word 'justify'. The Greek word is 'dikaloo'. Verbs ending in 'oo' often mean 'to bring out that which a person is or that which is desired'. Abraham was accounted righteous back in Genesis 15. When he obeyed God in taking Isaac to be sacrificed on Mt. Moriah - that showed his righteousness, his faith. To be plainer, he was saved back in Genesis 15, he was shown saved in Gen. 22.
This backs up what James is saying - You can claim to be rightous, claim to have faith, but if your actions don't show it, then you aren't saved and you don't have faith. Tht is the essence of what James is saying. Look at verse 14: Jam 2:14 What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him? Someone "says" he has faith...
It goes back to all that I have already written to you in regards to WHO does the work of salvation? It's God. And I have given alot of scripture to back it up.

Eph. 2:8-9 is simply discussing works that one could boast about.

That statement is a joke. I am sorry to be rude, but it is just plain ridiculous. You are totally ignoring what it says.
Eph 2:4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,
Eph 2:5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
Eph 2:6 and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly {places} in Christ Jesus,
Eph 2:7 so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, {it is} the gift of God;
Eph 2:9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.
It is not of ourselves! Not at all by any efoort on our part! It is a gift! We don't earn it.
And I have given you alot of scripture that you are ignoring.

The verse is just fine the way that it is written. Faith is a work (John 6:28-29).

}
Jhn 6:28 Therefore they said to Him, "What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God?"
Jhn 6:29 Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent."
God 'work' sent Jesus to the world. It's is God's plan of salvation at work when Jesus was on earth, went to the cross, bore our sins, was buried and rose again. Yikes, Florida - this IS Christianity 101!

After considering all that you have said about John 6:28-29, here is what I still don’t understand: the Jews ask a question in verse 28, “What shall we do, that we may work the work of God?” I understand Jesus’ response in verse 29 to be, “This is the work of God [This is what God wants you to do], that you believe in Him whom He sent.” I think the key to understanding this verse is focusing on this key phrase - - “you believe in Him.” Belief is something that each individual is responsible for. God gives the evidence, but it is up to each individual to believe it. "Believe in him." This is what the Lord would have us do. Note Peter's response in vs. 69, "We have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." God gave the evidence, but it was up to each person whether or not to believe it.

That is ok as stated - but you also need to look at Who does the work of salvation and also look at what else it says in John 6. I already posted it. We either believe or we don't - and it is God who looks into the heart and sees whether we do or not. Salvation is not at the whim of man.
And if we truly believe. it will show in our lives by changes, in our behaviours and attitudes, by our deeds.

The thief on the cross was also saved while the law of Moses was in effect. Jesus testament was not yet in effect (Heb. 9:15-17).

Proof, then, that salvation has always been by grace through faith.

 

[FreeinChrist]

).

titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy, He saved us by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Spirit


2 tim 1:9 who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began...Eph 1:4



you for got these verses western kentucky

AMEN!

 

[A Brethren IN CHRIST]

A Brethren,


If 1 Cor. 12:13 is the baptism that Eph. 4:5 is talking about... then what about Acts 8:25-40. In previous discussions, I have explained myself enough regarding my position. Now, it is your turn to do the explaining. How do you "harmonize" 1 Cor. 12:13 and Acts 8:25-40?

Act 8:27 is about an Eunch that was a believer in the dispensation of Law where they were promise land and blessings BUT we as the dispensation of Grace are promised a better promise as Hebrews 11:40 states ...

One such promise is John 17:20-24 is promised and realized in Act 2 of the Holy spirit, The Son and The Father resides in us.... and promised to the Church of being with God forever as the bride...

So in Acts 8:27 the Eunuch going to Jerusalem to worship ...OT believer

Phillip told him OT vs in 8:32,35

Eunuch believed that JC was God...Romans 4:5
act 8:37 in that moment he was 1cor 12:13

then he got water baptized to show he was a new man

 

[FreeinChrist]

Jesus had power on earth to forgive sins (Mark 2:1-12). Before we conclude that faith is all that is necessary for salvation today, it would be wise to examine others scriptures to make sure that we have not overlooked anything under Jesus’ testament that is required for salvation i.e. Acts 2:38 (yes, I read your point about the verse and I will deal with it when I get to that particular post) ; Acts 17:30 ; Acts 8:35-39 ; Acts 16:30-33 ; Acts 22:16.

Let's look at one passage you use in trying to support that water baptism saves, thus works are required (contrary to alot of scripture already posted):
Act 8:26 But an angel of the Lord spoke to Philip saying, "Get up and go south to the road that descends from Jerusalem to Gaza." (This is a desert {road.})
Act 8:27 So he got up and went; and there was an Ethiopian eunuch, a court official of Candace, queen of the Ethiopians, who was in charge of all her treasure; and he had come to Jerusalem to worship,
Act 8:28 and he was returning and sitting in his chariot, and was reading the prophet Isaiah.
Act 8:29 Then the Spirit said to Philip, "Go up and join this chariot."
Act 8:30 Philip ran up and heard him reading Isaiah the prophet, and said, "Do you understand what you are reading?"
Act 8:31 And he said, "Well, how could I, unless someone guides me?" And he invited Philip to come up and sit with him.
Act 8:32 Now the passage of Scripture which he was reading was this: "HE WAS LED AS A SHEEP TO SLAUGHTER; AND AS A LAMB BEFORE ITS SHEARER IS SILENT, SO HE DOES NOT OPEN HIS MOUTH.
Act 8:33 "IN HUMILIATION HIS JUDGMENT WAS TAKEN AWAY; WHO WILL RELATE HIS GENERATION? FOR HIS LIFE IS REMOVED FROM THE EARTH."
Act 8:34 The eunuch answered Philip and said, "Please {tell me,} of whom does the prophet say this? Of himself or of someone else?"
Act 8:35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and beginning from this Scripture he preached Jesus to him.
Act 8:36 As they went along the road they came to some water; and the eunuch *said, "Look! Water! What prevents me from being baptized?"
Act 8:37 [And Philip said, "If you believe with all your heart, you may." And he answered and said, "I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God."]
Act 8:38 And he ordered the chariot to stop; and they both went down into the water, Philip as well as the eunuch, and he baptized him.
Act 8:39 When they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord snatched Philip away; and the eunuch no longer saw him, but went on his way rejoicing.
Now let's look at what happened and what it says. The Eunuch was already being drawn to Jesus by the Spirit of God - he was reading Isaiah. The Spirit of God furthur moved to reach this eunuch by sending Phillip to him and the eunuch as open to learning what the word of God says. The eunuch believed and asked to be baptized, and he was. (God drew, granted and gave - see john 6)
Doe this passage say that he was saved after the baptism or before? It doesn't clearly state that salvation came after - and this passage does not back up your statements above.

Grace (or favor) starts as early as Gen. 6:8.

God's grace began in the garden of Eden, when God first 'sacrificed' an animal to make skins to cover the nakedness of Adam and Eve - 'covering' their sin. From then on, animal sacrifice 'covered' sin but never took it away - not till Christ. God's grace was apparent also in the garden with the promise of the 'seed of the woman' who would bruise the head of the seed of the serpent'. That is not a reference to men and snakes, but to Christ (seed of the woman) and Antichrist (seed of the serpent). He knew it and planned it all from the beginning:
Isa 46:9 "Remember the former things long past, For I am God, and there is no other; {I am} God, and there is no one like Me,
Isa 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things which have not been done, Saying, 'My purpose will be established, And I will accomplish all My good pleasure';
Isa 46:11 Calling a bird of prey from the east, The man of My purpose from a far country. Truly I have spoken; truly I will bring it to pass. I have planned {it, surely} I will do it.

Look at the wording of John 8:24. "Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am {He,} you will die in your sins." Jesus direct statement told them (and us) that faith is up to the individual person - - "unless you believe . . . you will die." Belief is a work that we do. It is the work that God would have us do (John 6:28-29).

"Belief" is not a 'work' - if so, then Paul and God are liars.
And I have already responded to John 6:28-29.
If you choose to disagree - fine. You are not backing your points up as far as I am concerned.

What is this stuff about “they believed, but not really.”

Ever read the parable of the soils? Ever meet someone who claimed to be a Christian, but never asked Christ in their heart? Never acknowledged their sin? No evidence of faith at all?
Our claiming belief is not enough - it has to be sincere in our heart. and God knows who is sincere and who isn't. He can see into our heart, Florida, and know:Hbr 4:12 For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart.
God knows - He draw, grants, gives, forgives, cleanses, mades new, makes alive, seals with the Holy Spirit of promise as a pledge of our inheritance...
We cannot take any credit.

 

[FreeinChrist]

Your observations about James 2 are somewhat different than mine. I normally see most people totally ignore the latter part of the chapter. Usually, when I mention James 2:14-26, I am immediately referred to Eph. 2:8-9. But shouldn’t we believe “all scripture” (2 Tim. 3:16-17)? Each verse should be understood in its context, and then the understanding checked for harmony. I do not practice or teach salvation by works, but do practice and teach that we must work (obey God) in order to receive salvation (Heb. 5:8-9).

Then you are not listening to all of scripture, and changing what doesn't fit your concept of James 2 says. I already wrote about the word for justify in James 2 in a post above. And yes, you are teaching salvation by works when you write, 'we must work (obey God) in order to receive salvation' - no, we have to believe, God must see that it is true belief, God must draw, grant, give.....
Hbr 5:7 In the days of His flesh, He offered up both prayers and supplications with loud crying and tears to the One able to save Him from death, and He was heard because of His piety.
Hbr 5:8 Although He was a Son, He learned obedience from the things which He suffered.
Hbr 5:9 And having been made perfect, He became to all those who obey Him the source of eternal salvation,
Hbr 5:10 being designated by God as a high priest according to the order of Melchizedek.
To obey unto salvation is to believe. The main conflict I see here is that you define works as believe and faith, and also as actions like baptising and mor. But I don't believe that scripture uses 'works' in that manner, nor does James. James is chiding folks for showing favortism to the rich, gossip, fighting, jealousies, etc. He is using works as what they are doing - i.e . what fruit they are showing.

Perhaps someone else can explain to you better.

I agree - - God is all-powerful and all-knowing and looks upon the heart of the sinner coming to him. But what does one have to do to be saved? Is faith necessary? Is repentance necessary? Is confession necessary? Is baptism necessary? I think we are in agreement that faith prompts one to act. So, which of these commands do we have to obey in order to be saved?

They are not 'works' as it is referring to in scripture, FC.
Yes, one must repent (involves confession) and believe.
But GOD does the work of salvation. It is He who 'baptizes with the Holy Spirit (seals us), and cleanses, renews regenerates...He does not do it at our whim, a momentary claim of belief, but if HE sees that it is sincere.

Water baptism is an outward confession of an inward change.
And in trying to make your case, you have made a broad definition of 'works' to include belief.
If our works are required for salvation, then God and Paul lied.

FC, I have given you scripture, and so have others. At length. I haven't seen that you really back your position up.

 

[western kentucky]

).

titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy, He saved us by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Spirit


2 tim 1:9 who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began...Eph 1:4



you for got these verses western kentucky

No, I did not forget these verses. Did you forget James 2:14-26? I am asking you to harmonize Rom. 4:5 with James 2:14-26. Instead, you use two other verses that pretty much fall in line with Romans 4:5.

Titus 3:5; 2 Tim. 1:9; Rom. 4:5; These passages all speak of the same point. We do not earn our salvation. God does not owe us anything. We all have sinned and we have all fallen short of his glory. We are saved by grace - meaning that we do not earn our salvation. Does this mean that we don't have to obey God's commands? How do you draw that idea from this passage.

Rom. 4:5 - non worker = justified
James 2:14-26 = works is the means for justification

How can you harmonize these passages? Rom. 4:5 says "but to the one who does not work," and James 2:17 says, "Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself."

It is not that difficult. Romans 4:5 is not drawing a parallel between "works" and "obedience." In Romans 4:5, works = the man God owes a debt to because he has earned his task flawlessly (grace is removed). James 2:14-26 is approaching a complete different problem. The problem faced: One who claims to be righteous without doing anything. The answer: Works is the means for justification.

A brethren, now it is your turn to harmonize Rom. 4:5 and James 2:14-26.....

 

[western kentucky]

Free in Christ,

You said, "Yes, one must repent (involves confession) and believe."

My response: So you believe that one must believe, repent, and confess - then they are saved. Can you explain to me your pick and choose process... If you believe that one is saved by "faith alone," then wouldn't that exclude repentance and confession. How did you come to the conclusion that scriptures teach that one must repent and confess, but yet not be baptized?

 

[Florida College]

I posted the scripture that faith is not works, how they are contrasted. I notice you do not reposnd to that, but just make the claim that faith is works. As you haven't backed it up - I'll stick with the scriptures.

Faith is a work according to John 6:28-29. A work that each person is responsible for. There is no getting around it - - God is not responsible for a person’s lack of faith. The person is solely responsible. Or would you contend that God is responsible when we don't have the faith that is required?

Now regarding water baptism, no - it doesn't save. You are really taking the verses out of their entire context. John the Baptist understood that we will be saved through a spiritual baptism when he said:
Mat 3:11 "As for me, I baptize you with water for repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, and I am not fit to remove His sandals; He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.
John baptized with water - and it did not remove a speck of sin, did it? It is because it was to be an outward show of repentence. And a picture of a future event - the death, burial of Christ, and His rising up from death to life. Salvation starts with repentence - which is why Christ was baptised to begin His ministry, and for the reason stated below.

If water baptism doesn’t save, then the apostle Peter really messed up when he wrote in 1 Pet. 3:20-21. (How did I take 1 Pet. 3:20-21 out of context?) Since God is responsible for “all scripture" (2 Tim. 3:16), then the implication becomes even more dangerous. Paul made it clear that baptism to wash away sins (Acts 22:16). After Philip preached "Jesus" to the eunuch, was the eunuch interested in baptism in water or a spiritual baptism (Acts 8:35-39)?

There seems to be a misunderstanding of the baptism of John and the baptism required under the gospel of Christ. John indeed baptized in water for repentance (Matt. 3:1-8). But John’s baptism is not the same as the baptism that puts one into Christ. Apollos was teaching the baptism of John in Acts 18:24-26. Aquila and Priscilla explained to him the way of God more accurately. Paul corrected this same misunderstanding among disciples at Ephesus (Acts 19:2-5). The baptism in the name of Jesus Christ is for the remission (Greek aphesis - - 1.) release from bondage or imprisonment 2.) forgiveness or pardon Strong’s Analytical Concordance) of sins (Acts 2:38).

[Paul baptized very few people - and don't you think he would have water baptised all that he could if he beleived it was necessary for salvation????? But he understood that it was a spiritual baptism that saved.
Tts 3:4 But when the kindness of God our Savior and {His} love for mankind appeared,
Tts 3:5 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,
Tts 3:6 whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior,
Tts 3:7 so that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to {the} hope of eternal life.

Speaking of contexts, is Paul telling us that baptism is unnecessary for salvation in 1 Cor. 1:10-17? No, he is not. He is condemning the division that existed in Corinth. The division was based on who had done the teaching and converting of the various members in Corith. In light of this division, Paul states that he is glad that he baptized only a few (1:14,16). Concerning the necessity of baptism, Paul clearly stated what Ananias commanded him to do in Acts 22:16. I conclude that having one's sins washed away is of importance. Do you disagree?

Concerning Titus 3:5 and the washing of regeneration, closely consider Rom. 6:3-11, John 3:3-5, and then spend a few minutes with the eunuch’s response to Philip’s preaching of “Jesus” in Acts 8:35-39. The washing of regeneration is just another way of saying being born again. That occurs in baptism. That was what the eunuch desired after hearing Jesus preached to him.

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You can be dipped repeatedly in water and never be saved - it is the spiritual change caused by the Holy Spirit that saves. The point of water baptism is to show WHO you identify with. In I Cor. 10:2, those who came out of Egypt are referred to as having been "baptized unto Moses" - they wre identified with the purpose of Moses. Were they dipped or sprinkled with water? NO Yet the same word is used for baptized in this verse as in the ones you provided. When Jesus was baptized by John, it was not because He needed to repent, but to identify with John tht He was the Messiah.

Again in Romans 6, it is not the water bptism that saves - it just illustrates our identification with Christ who died, was buried, and raised again to eternal life.

THAT is what I mean when I refer to interpreting scripture in light of ALL of scripture.
[/size]

Free,

I agree, being dipped repeatedly in water will not result in salvation. The Lord said that both faith and baptism are necessary for salvation (Mk. 16:16 - - I will be posting some additional comments about whether this verse belongs with scripture or not). Philip also taught that faith and is required for baptism The eunuch also made the good confession before he was baptized (Acts 8:35-39). Peter also taught the Jews that were convicted of crucifying the Son of God that both repentance and baptism were necessary for the remission of sins (Acts 2:38).

“The point of water baptism is to show WHO you identify with.” Generally speaking, I beg to differ with you on that point. According to 1 Cor. 1:12-13, being baptized should identify the Christian as following the Lord, and not whoever converted them. But the purpose of baptism is generally stated as it relates to salvation. The purpose can be easily determined in Mk. 16:16 ; Acts 2:38 ; Acts 22:16 ; & 1 Pet. 3:20-21.

Closely examine 1 Cor. 10:1-12. In what sense were the Israelites baptized into Moses - -by being identified with him? Where does the passage suggest that this is what is meant by baptism? Look closely at the scene Paul gives in vs. 1 - - the fathers (Israelites) had the cloud over them - - and the sea on both sides - - “all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea” (vs. 2). There, he plainly tells us the sense in which they were baptized.

Concerning Jesus’ baptism: Jesus truly had no sins to repent of (Heb. 4:15). So, why was he baptized with John’s baptism of repentance? John also wondered why. The account of Jesus’ baptism and the reason for it can be found in Matt. 3:13-17. In obedience to the Lord, we should obey him (Heb. 5:9 ; Mk. 16:16).

I see how you interpret scripture. Generally speaking, I use a two-step approach. First, I read the passage(s), study it carefully, and derive an understanding (Neh. 8:8). Then I make sure that this understanding harmonizes with the understanding derived from other passages (Matt. 4:5-7).

FC

 

[FreeinChrist]

Free in Christ,

You said, "Yes, one must repent (involves confession) and believe."

My response: So you believe that one must believe, repent, and confess - then they are saved. Can you explain to me your pick and choose process... If you believe that one is saved by "faith alone," then wouldn't that exclude repentance and confession. How did you come to the conclusion that scriptures teach that one must repent and confess, but yet not be baptized?

Free: I already explained in the long posts I have already written. Repent, confess, believe and faith....all tied up together and leads to God's work of salvation. Water Baptism Baptism is a separate ACT.

And again - it is GOD who does the work of salvation, who DRAWS us in the first place, who GRANTS it to us to come to Christ, and who GIVES us to Christ, and forgives, renews, seals, regenerates.....why is this so hard to understand?
What makes you think you are responsible for your salvation?

And one other point - those who are sanctifed (saved) will be justified (shown to be righteous before the Judge) and glorified (given incorruptible bodies. Look for a scripture that has all three terms in them, and it may help you understand.

 

[Florida College]

No need to be snippy and offensive. Didn't I see a post by you complaining about others not being nice? I believe you need to take your own advice if so.

Yes, that was me. I will heed your advice. I also noted the “Christianity 101” comment and the section following it (starting with, “What I have seen in your posts” ) on post #31.

I don't write them off - but don't base my theology on them over other scripture. That is why it is important to look at the message over all.
As for the Early Church Fathers - like Clement, and Justin Martyr, and Polycarp, and Hippolypus and Eusebius and Iranaeus, etc (many of whom were martyrs) - all in the first, second, third, fourth century - their writings have been examined for centuries and centuries. And I can confidently say that they quoted all of the NT except 11 verses. Like they weren't even there. And again, those 11 verses are not in the oldest manuscripts. Something to keep in mind when arguing against another scripture using them.

I didn’t realize that I was basing my theology of Mk. 16:16 over other scripture. I always viewed Mk. 16:15-18 as being a companion passage to Matt. 28:18-20. If I view Mk. 16:16 as being inspired of God, what exactly is wrong with that thinking?

Now, to address the last 12 verses of Mark 16:

“His Post-Resurrection Appearances, 9-20. This portion is not found in the Sinaitic and Vatican manuscripts. Others have it in part. Probably Mark’s original copy was transcribed and became a textual tradition before he finished it. Later he finished it, giving rise to another text (the fuller one, consisting of verses 9-20). This latter text is referred to by Irenaeus (c. A.D. 170) and is found in the Alexandrian and Cambridge manuscripts.” Unger’s Bible Handbook

“Chapter 16: 9-20. The Last 12 Verses of Mark. These are not in the Sinaitic and Vatican manuscripts, but were early accepted as a genuine part of Mark’s gospel. It is thought likely that the last page of the original copy was lost, and added later. It does not seem that verse 8 could have been a proper ending for the book.” Halley’s Bible Handbook

Personally, I think the strongest evidence for the last 12 verses is that the book ends abruptly and awkwardly at verse 8 without them. While I realize that there are some issues about the last 12 verses, I don’t see anything in the verses that doesn’t harmonize with other verses in the N.T. So, where do you think the book of Mark actually ends?

I didn’t realize that I was basing my theology of Mk. 16:16 over other scripture. I always viewed Mk. 16:15-18 as being a companion passage to Matt. 28:18-20. If I view Mk. 16:16 as being inspired of God, what exactly is wrong with that thinking?

Acts 2:38 - have you bothered to check out the Greek for this verse? Considered the context - the situation? Literally translated, it means 'Repent, and be baptized for the purpose of identifying you with the remission of sins' - similar to " all were baptized unto Moses" as found in I Cor. 10:2. Again - it isn't the water baptism that saves, it is the repentence. And the situation is Pentecost Day - the first day that believers received the Holy Spirit!

Yes, I have - - the Greek, context, and situation. Acts 2:38 “. . . Repent, and let everyone of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins . . .” (NKJV)
“And” - - is a coordinating conjunction connecting two equal parts: repentance and baptism
“For” - - is the Greek preposition eis. It is the same Greek word that appears in Matt. 26:28 – “For this is My blood . . . which is shed for many for the remission of sins” & Rom. 4:5 – “. . . his faith is accounted for righteousness.”
“Remission” - - is the Greek word aphesis (a sending away – Young’s Analytical Concordance). It also appears in Matt. 26: 28, Acts 10: 43, and Heb. 9:22.

I disagree with your literal interpretation. The passage doesn’t say that repentance saves. The passage commands both repentance and baptism. If salvation precedes baptism, then salvation precedes repentance. Conversely, if repentance saves, then baptism saves.

Yes, it was the day of Pentecost. So, what is your point? Was Peter not being guided by the Holy Spirit? Did Peter teach error, or did he teach truth? Were the requirements for salvation later changed?

Do you understand that we need a Saviour because there is no way we can earn our salvation?
There is no conflict between Acts 2:38 and Ephesians 2:8-9 as I have interpreted it. Salvation is by grace through faith in Jesus Christ. It was by faith that the OT saints got a good report. (Hebrews 11) It was because Abraham believed God would keep His promise of the Seed that he was accounted righteous back in Genesis 15. Salvation has always been by grace through faith. The law didn't remove sin, or perfect, or change a person! ]

Yes, I see the need. I am not aware of anyone suggesting on this thread that we can earn our salvation. Have you seen any such post?

You are correct in saying that there is no conflict between Acts 2:38 and Eph. 2:8-9 as you have interpreted it. The problem is with the understanding that you derived from Acts 2:38. I don’t see any indication that you recognized that the conjunction "and" connects repentance and baptism. I am very interested to see how you view the Greek words “eis” and “aphesis” and the other verses where they appear i.e. Matt. 26:28 & Acts 10:43.

If salvation has always been by grace and through faith as you say, there is a problem. “For the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.” (John 1:17) While I don’t deny that God favored many individuals and nations through man’s history, and many men and women had faith i.e. Heb. 11, grace and truth seems to be something that came through the Lord Jesus, not earlier.

I already addressed John 6:28-29. WHOSE work is it? Look at the verses:
Jhn 6:28 Therefore they said to Him, "What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God?"
Jhn 6:29 Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent."
Does this verse mean we are saved by grace and OUR works? NO. Salvation is the work of God. It is God who draws us, who grants it to us to come to Christ, who gives us to Christ after seeing the true intent of the heart. Read the whole chapter and note these verses:
Jhn 6:37 "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.

Jhn 6:44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.
Jhn 6:45 "It is written in the prophets, 'AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT OF GOD.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me.


Jhn 6:65 And He was saying, "For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father."

I read John 6. Jesus fed the multitude (5,000 men) with a five loaves and two fish. Jesus walked on the water of the Sea of Galilee. He taught at Capernaum. After his teaching, many of the disciples did not follow him any longer.

I do not deny that salvation is the work of God. I do deny that faith is a work of God. Faith is something that an individual does (vs. 29 “you believe in Him” ). Peter said, “We have come to believe and to know that you are the Christ, the Son of the living God” (vs. 69). Faith is something that each person is responsible for. If our faith is God’s work, then God is accountable for those who do not develop faith.

Other verses that describe God's work of salvation:
Col 1:12 giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified us to share in the inheritance of the saints in Light.

Hbr 10:14 For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified.
Hbr 10:15 And the Holy Spirit also testifies to us; for after saying,
Hbr 10:16 "THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THEM AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD: I WILL PUT MY LAWS UPON THEIR HEART, AND ON THEIR MIND I WILL WRITE THEM," {He then says,}
Hbr 10:17 "AND THEIR SINS AND THEIR LAWLESS DEEDS I WILL REMEMBER NO MORE."


Do you realize that under the new covenant - God changes us?? What didn't happen under the old that happens under the new is that God gives us hearts of flesh, having taken out the hearts of stone. He changes us.

I realize that hearing the gospel can bring a change upon a person’s heart (Acts 2:37). It is also possible for a Christian’s heart to change back to what it was previously (Heb. 3:7-4:11).

Col 2:10 and in Him you have been made complete, and He is the head over all rule and authority; Col 2:11 and in Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ;

Col 2:13 When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions,
Col 2:14 having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.


Tts 3:5 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,
Tts 3:6 whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior,
Tts 3:7 so that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to {the} hope of eternal life.

Eph 1:13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation--having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,
Eph 1:14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of {God's own} possession, to the praise of His glory.

2Cr 1:21 Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and anointed us is God,
2Cr 1:22 who also sealed us and gave {us} the Spirit in our hearts as a pledge

Do you see what God's work is in regards to salvation??
GOD draw, grants, gives, forgives, cleanses, qualifies, perfects, writes His law on our hearts and in our minds, forgets our sin, seals us with the Holy Spirit, makes us alive in Him, regenerates, renews, cancels the debt, establishes us in Christ, anoints us, pledges by giving us the Holy Spirit, He makes us heirs, adopting us as sons - NOT on the basis of the works we have done but because when Jesus died on the cross, our sins were nailed to the cross! God Incarnate on the cross for us!

Jhn 6:47 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.

Now was Jesus lying when He said this?

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Free,

Yes, I see all that God has done since he created man. So, as we realize all that God has done for us, should we obey him . . . or not? According to 2 Thess. 1:7-9, obedience is required. According to Heb. 5:9, obedience is required. According to Matt. 7:21-23, we must do the Father’s will. If we obeyed the Lord, would that mean we had “worked” and “earned” salvation? No, absolutely not! Jesus said, “So, likewise you, when you have done all things which you are commanded, say, ‘We are unprofitable servants. We have done what was our duty to do.’” (Luke. 17:7-10)

Amen.

FC

 

[FreeinChrist]

Faith is a work according to John 6:28-29. A work that each person is responsible for. There is no getting around it - - God is not responsible for a person’s lack of faith. The person is solely responsible. Or would you contend that God is responsible when we don't have the faith that is required?

Why do you work so hard to dodge the question I have asked? WHOSE work, FC? Why do you think you are responsible for your own salvation?
I have answered this repeatedly. Go back and read.

If water baptism doesn’t save, then the apostle Peter really messed up when he wrote in 1 Pet. 3:20-21. (How did I take 1 Pet. 3:20-21 out of context?)

1Pe 3:18 For Christ also died for sins once for all, {the} just for {the} unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit;
1Pe 3:19 in which also He went and made proclamation to the spirits {now} in prison,
1Pe 3:20 who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through {the} water.
1Pe 3:21 Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you--not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience--through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
I already explained this - but again, this is in regards to spiritual baptism - the circumcism made without hands. NOT water baptism!
I already discussed how baptism means to identify with someone - like when Paul referrred to those who left Eygpt with Moses as 'baptised unto Moses". Go back and read.

Or do you think that John the Baptist was able to save people via water baptism?

Since God is responsible for “all scripture" (2 Tim. 3:16), then the implication becomes even more dangerous. Paul made it clear that baptism to wash away sins (Acts 22:16). After Philip preached "Jesus" to the eunuch, was the eunuch interested in baptism in water or a spiritual baptism (Acts 8:35-39)?

So why do you ignore so many scriptures and change what doesn't fit your view? Yes...dangerous ground, FC.
And you are dodging again responding to my post about Phillip - not answering the question I asked - that seems to be your pattern.
Now again - where in the passage that I posted to you does it say that the eunuch was saved after water baptism? If I look at ALL OF WHAT SCRIPTURE SAYS IN REGARDS TO SALVATION, then I conclude that he was spiritually baptized when he believed - and the woater baptism is an outward expression of the inward change done to IDENTIFY himself with Christ in a public way - which is consistent with the use of baptism in scripture - John the Baptist and those of Christians later.

And if Paul believed that WATER BAPTISM was so important for salvation to take place, wouldn't he have baptised all who confessed that they belied in Christ in his evangelistic work? But he didn't.
1Cr 1:14 I thank God that I baptized none of you except Crispus and Gaius,
1Cr 1:15 so that no one would say you were baptized in my name.
1Cr 1:16 Now I did baptize also the household of Stephanas; beyond that, I do not know whether I baptized any other.
1Cr 1:17 For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not in cleverness of speech, so that the cross of Christ would not be made void.
1Cr 1:18 For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
So if Acts 22:16 means that waer baptism is required for salvation, why didn't Paul baptize all that he could?

Please answer that - and don't dodge.

Concerning Titus 3:5 and the washing of regeneration, closely consider Rom. 6:3-11, John 3:3-5, and then spend a few minutes with the eunuch’s response to Philip’s preaching of “Jesus” in Acts 8:35-39. The washing of regeneration is just another way of saying being born again. That occurs in baptism. That was what the eunuch desired after hearing Jesus preached to him.

The washing and regeneration of the Holy Spirit has to do with being SAVED - born again, forgiven and cleansed, and SEALED WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT, which is the baptism of the Holy Spirit . Water baptism is the outward sign of the inward change.

We are not told of every word of the eunuch's reponse to Phillip. As I already wrote, to be water baptized is to identify yourself with Christ in a public manner. The spiritual change already too place..

I conclude that having one's sins washed away is of importance. Do you disagree?

But water doesn't wash sins away, Florida.
It is only the blood of Christ that can remove sins.

I'd respond to more of your post, but you are just repeating the same stuff, not using scripture in contxt, ignoring wthe scripture I already have posted, and not answering the questions I posed to you.
So I will just let the word speak and pray theat the Holy spirit reaches you.
Jhn 1:12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, {even} to those who believe in His name,
Jhn 1:13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.
(no mention of water)
Jhn 1:32 John testified saying, "I have seen the Spirit descending as a dove out of heaven, and He remained upon Him.
Jhn 1:33 "I did not recognize Him, but He who sent me to baptize in water said to me, 'He upon whom you see the Spirit descending and remaining upon Him, this is the One who baptizes in the Holy Spirit.'
Jhn 3:14 "As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up;
Jhn 3:15 so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life.
Jhn 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
(no water mentioned)
Rom 4:1 What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, has found?
Rom 4:2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.
Rom 4:3 For what does the Scripture say? "ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS."
Rom 4:4 Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due.
Rom 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,
Rom 4:6 just as David also speaks of the blessing on the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:
Rom 4:7 "BLESSED ARE THOSE WHOSE LAWLESS DEEDS HAVE BEEN FORGIVEN, AND WHOSE SINS HAVE BEEN COVERED.
Rom 4:8 "BLESSED IS THE MAN WHOSE SIN THE LORD WILL NOT TAKE INTO ACCOUNT."
Rom 4:9 Is this blessing then on the circumcised, or on the uncircumcised also? For we say, "FAITH WAS CREDITED TO ABRAHAM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS."
Rom 4:10 How then was it credited? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised;



Rom 5:1 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,
Rom 5:2 through whom also we have obtained our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand; and we exult in hope of the glory of God.
Rom 5:3 And not only this, but we also exult in our tribulations, knowing that tribulation brings about perseverance;
Rom 5:4 and perseverance, proven character; and proven character, hope;
Rom 5:5 and hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out within our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us.

Act 15:11 "But we believe that we are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, in the same way as they also are."

2Ti 1:8 Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord or of me His prisoner, but join with {me} in suffering for the gospel according to the power of God,
2Ti 1:9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity,

Rom 3:27 Where then is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith.
Rom 3:28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.
Eph 1:9 He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him
Eph 1:10 with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, {that is,} the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him
Eph 1:11 also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will,
Eph 1:12 to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory.
Eph 1:13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation--having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,
Eph 1:14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of {God's own} possession, to the praise of His glory.

 

[FreeinChrist]

Some interesting sites that discuss the topic. Though I don't agree with everything at every site, I agreed with these about water baptism.

http://www.harvest.org/knowgod/index.php/6/12.html
http://www.harvest.org/knowgod/index.php/6/8.html

http://www.born-again-christian.info/water.baptism.htm

http://www.believers.org/believe/bel190.htm

Must You Be Baptized To Be Saved?
​

In Luke 23:39-43, we have the record of one of the criminals crucified with Jesus acknowledging Him as Lord.

LUKE 23:43 NKJ
43 And Jesus said to him, "Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise."

Jesus told the criminal he would be with Him in Paradise, even though he was not baptized in water.

Also, in Acts 10:44-48, Cornelius' household became believers, received the Holy Spirit, and began speaking in tongues, before being baptized in water.

According to Jesus (John 7:38-39, Mark 16:17), receiving the Holy Spirit happens only to those who are believers, and therefore saved.

So, we must conclude that these believers were born again, and ready for Heaven, before they were baptized in water.

 

[Florida College]

I was studying this recently and because of some related scripture, we came to the conclusion, as I remember it, that he delayed. But that is not obvious in Genesis 12 or clearly stated, so I will back off that point. However, God did say, "Go forth from your country, and from your relatives, and from your father's house..." and Abraham took Lot, a relative. He didn't obey to the letter. Then later he goes to Eygpt, pretends he isn't married to Sarai, and didn't speak up when Pharoah took Sarai as wife....and God did not punish Abram, but punished Pharoah.
Then, after the covenant God made with Abram in Genesis 15, where he is accounted righteous, Abraham takes Hagar - helping God along, I suppose. And God did not punish him. Just said no, it will be with Sarai. But what do you think of that 'work'?

Jam 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar?
Jam 2:22 You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected;
Jam 2:23 and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "AND ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS," and he was called the friend of God.
Jam 2:24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.
This passage includes that Abraham believed and was reckoned as righteous. Let's look at the word 'justify'. The Greek word is 'dikaloo'. Verbs ending in 'oo' often mean 'to bring out that which a person is or that which is desired'. Abraham was accounted righteous back in Genesis 15. When he obeyed God in taking Isaac to be sacrificed on Mt. Moriah - that showed his righteousness, his faith. To be plainer, he was saved back in Genesis 15, he was shown saved in Gen. 22.
This backs up what James is saying - You can claim to be rightous, claim to have faith, but if your actions don't show it, then you aren't saved and you don't have faith. Tht is the essence of what James is saying. Look at verse 14: Jam 2:14 What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him? Someone "says" he has faith...
It goes back to all that I have already written to you in regards to WHO does the work of salvation? It's God. And I have given alot of scripture to back it up.

Free,

When I read the first part of your post, I initially thought we were making some progress. But now you say that Abraham didn't obey God to the letter, but you did not address Heb. 11:8. It says, "By faith Abraham obeyed God when he was called to go out to the place which he would afterward receive for an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going." The Hebrew writer offers an inspired commentary on Abraham's faith and obedience. I don't read of God's approval of Abraham's deception (lie) or of Abraham's efforts to expedite the child of promise into the world. I think your question about Abraham's "work" is an effort to downplay the necessity of coupling faith with works.

Gen. 15:6 says, "And he [Abraham] believed in the LORD, and He accounted it to him for righteousness." Abraham believed God. He did as God had instructed him (Gen. 12:1-4 ; Heb. 12:8).

In Gen. 17, the LORD made the covenant of circumcision with Abraham. So, we might ask, how does a man of righteousness - - one who believes God, respond? We find the answer in the latter verses of that chapter (vs. 23-27 & in 21:4). He does as he has been instructed.

Issac, the child of promise is born in 21:1-5. Now, how does a man of faith respond when God tells him to offer his son of promise (Isaac) as a sacrifice? He responds like a man of faith should (22:1-18). An inspired commentary is also offered for this event in Heb. 11:17-19. The extent of Abraham's faith is brought to our attention is these verses. James comments on this same event in 2:21-24:
"Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." And he was called the friend of God. You see then a man is justified by works, and not by faith only."

Your quote: "He [Abraham] was saved back in Genesis 15, he was shown saved in Gen. 22." If this is true, then what was Abraham's condition prior to Gen. 15? Was he not faithful and obedient to the Lord in Gen. 12:1-5? The writer of Hebrews says he was, "For by it [faith] the elders obtained a good testimony" (Heb. 11:2) and "By faith Abraham obeyed" (Heb. 11:8). Your quote implies that Abraham was lost prior to Gen. 15. How could an elder with a good testimony - - one who had faith and obeyed the LORD - - be is a lost condition?

The truth that James 2:14-26 is bringing to our attention is a deeper commentary on the same principle that Jesus introduces in Matt. 7:21, "Not everyone that says to Me, 'Lord, Lord' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven." James uses various illustrations and scriptural examples of how "true" faith is coupled with works. Abraham's sacrifice of Isaac is simply one of the examples that James uses (2:21-24).

Considering Matt. 7:21-23 and James 2:14-26, what should someone do today that want to follow the Lord? Do they only believe John 3:16, or do they also need to believe and obey Lk. 13:3,5; Matt. 10:32-33; and Mk. 16:16? I see many people that read a passage such as John 3:16, shut their bibles, and claim salvation by "faith only." Matt. 7:21-23 & James 2:14-26 are just two of many passages that says that this thinking is lacking scriptural support.

While I don't deny any of the work that God has done to redeem man (Rom. 5:8-11), I deny that God does all the work. It is our (man's) responsibility to "know God" and "obey the gospel" (2 Thess. 1:8). It is our responsibility to obey the Lord (Heb. 5:9). Consider what Paul wrote to the Philippians: "Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling" (Phil. 2:12). Therefore, I conclude that anyone that believes or teaches that God does all the work for our salvation, has deceived themselves.

Now going back to your original comments about Abraham, you declare that Abraham did not obey God to the letter. So, what should we do today as we view God's commands and expectations? Obey, or not obey? Obey part, or obey all? Obey the parts that we like, and not obey those parts that are more difficult for us? As you might guess, I see real problems coming from your statement.

FC