On Purgatory

[Monk Brendan]

Please don't.

Why not? Have you read it? If you have, gives us the experience of your wisdom in giving us a short idea of what the book is about, and maybe a critical overview.

 

[Albion]

But I didn't say that Purgatory included all those things. It is, as I have said before, a place that exists where the prayers of believers and the saints in heaven can be a help to the soul tarrying there, while the wood, hay and stubble are burned away, and the gold, silver and gems are refined and purified.

You're discussing an alternative to Purgatory, not Purgatory itself.

It's not sufficient to recast any doctrine or religious concept to one's liking and then go on using the name of the actual item for the replacement. That would be like some church group which didn't believe in Baptism terming its induction ceremony, sans water and any mention of God, its "Baptism" merely because their act takes the place of the sacrament. Or, as I've heard a few atheists attempt to get away with, calling the idea of some impersonal and purely material, natural origin of the universe, by the word "God."

Purgatory was invented by the RCC shortly before the Reformation broke. It may be argued that it drew upon some scattered and vague ideas existing from an earlier time, but the church definitely built a certain construct from that, and it has a particular meaning with detailed characteristics. Remove them and you don't have a different "Purgatory;" you have a different idea.

 

[Cappadocious]

Why not? Have you read it? If you have, gives us the experience of your wisdom in giving us a short idea of what the book is about, and maybe a critical overview.

MB it depresses me that someone in the RCC would stoop so low as to treat such a book as authoritative. As for your demand, I shirk it. Also, wth, are you former WRO or something?

 

[All4Christ]

@Monk Brendan - It is a controversial book and isn't an authoritative book for Orthodox Christians. It has some speculative theology and develops doctrines beyond official theology.

I'm not denying the concept of Tollhouses being taught by Orthodox Christianity, but it isn't nearly as defined as portrayed in Fr Seraphim Rose's book. Theology surrounding tollhouses in general is controversial.

 

[prodromos]

I can't fathom how anyone could conflate the concept of purgatory with tollhouses in the first place.

 

[Cappadocious]

I can't fathom how anyone could conflate the concept of purgatory with tollhouses in the first place.

Viz. toll house theology's most developed form, give me purgatory any day.

 

[St. Paul]

First of all, Purgatory is not a medieval invention. Read some of the Orthodox writings on Toll Houses--it's the same thing. Second, you are trying to throw dust in my face, because I did not mention Limbo at all, so that comment is a non-sequitur. And how does Purgatory work, if you please?

But before you reply, you might want to read The Soul after Death by Fr. Seraphim Rose.

BTW, How do you know so much about Purgatory?

Purgatory was used by the RCC to con people out of money to support the churches problem with wasting money on extravagant things and various pope's raiding the money box. Explain to me how a clergy man can reduce someone's time in purgatory due to monetary circumstances. I'd love to hear it.

 

[nondenom40]

1 Cor:3:12-13 says (KJV) "Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is."

According to classic Catholic belief Purgatory is a place of burning fire, that does the final refining of the gold, silver and precious stones. Is the passage above not definite proof that such a place exists?

Nope. Its a believers works that are judged, what they did in the body of Christ while on earth. This and 2 Cor 5 the bema seat is simply a place where believers receive reward for their service. Some will get much, others not so much. But nothing here suggests the person is going through some fire or purgation. Also, there are too many verses where God Himself transforms our bodies to be with Him;

1 Thess 3:13
13 so that He may establish your hearts unblamable in holiness before our God and Father at the coming of our Lord Jesus with all His saints. NASB

1 Peter 5:10
10 And after you have suffered for a little while, the God of all grace, who called you to His eternal glory in Christ, will Himself perfect, confirm, strengthen and establish you. NASB

Jude 24
24 Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling, and to make you stand in the presence of His glory blameless with great joy, NASB

There are many others. Its all God. Absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. Purgatory suggests (according to your ccc) that we expiate our own sin. When in fact Jesus has fully atoned for our sin and nailed our certificate of debt to the cross Col 2.

 

[Geralt]

scare tactics or a backdoor solution to gain eternal life after death, nothing more.
meant to ensure control of their constituents and keep the flow of money.

1 Cor:3:12-13 says (KJV) "Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is."

According to classic Catholic belief Purgatory is a place of burning fire, that does the final refining of the gold, silver and precious stones. Is the passage above not definite proof that such a place exists?

 

[~Anastasia~]

I thought Melkites were not specifically invested in the classic Catholic teaching of Purgatory? Or perhaps I am confusing with another group.

 

[Alonso_Castillo]

Not everybody would go through Purgatory, only the saved ones, the others are going straight to hell...

 

[~Anastasia~]

Not everybody would go through Purgatory, only the saved ones, the others are going straight to hell...

ty. that was my understandinh of catholic doctrine. i was told otherwese by someone so wanted to ask here. just checking ty

 

[~Anastasia~]

ty. that was my understandinh of catholic doctrine. i was told otherwese by someone so wanted to ask here. just checking ty

oops wrongthread . apologies. meant only to read here.

 

[Albion]

ty. that was my understandinh of catholic doctrine. i was told otherwese by someone so wanted to ask here. just checking ty

Well, that is the answer, but the question we were talking about most recently concerned HOW MANY of the saved will experience Purgatory.

While the Catholic Church's position is that the overwhelming majority of people who are heaven-bound--in fact almost all of them--will go to Purgatory, you've seen how certain Catholic posters here are almost desperate to counter that understanding. This is important to note because it's the very reason that the Church itself is engaged in a campaign to minimize Purgatory without doing away with it...and that's because hardly any Catholics these days are willing to believe that they will go there, even though their church's position is that almost all of them will. That's why Limbo was junked and the Church's position on remarriages and homosexuality are steadily being softened--"membership retention" concerns.

 

[Alonso_Castillo]

ty. that was my understandinh of catholic doctrine. i was told otherwese by someone so wanted to ask here. just checking ty

Saint John Henry Newman expressed it somehow well in his Dream of Gerontius Poem. The Music of Elgar is amazing but the content of the texts are of Saint John Henry Newman.

 

[Alonso_Castillo]

Well, that is the answer, but the question we were talking about most recently concerned HOW MANY of the saved will experience Purgatory.

While the Catholic Church's position is that the overwhelming majority of people who are heaven-bound--in fact almost all of them--will go to Purgatory, you've seen how certain Catholic posters here are almost desperate to counter that understanding. This is important to note because it's the very reason that the Church itself is engaged in a campaign to minimize Purgatory without doing away with it...and that's because hardly any Catholics these days are willing to believe that they will go there, even though their church's position is that almost all of them will. That's why Limbo was junked and the Church's position on remarriages and homosexuality are steadily being softened--"membership retention" concerns.

Gay marriages and Divorces endorsed by the Anglican communion has not at all bring more believers to the Sunday's services... Why would Catholics follow?

 

[Albion]

I suppose that one answer would be that all sorts of denominations have made that move, like it or not, and many Catholic laymen are supportive of it. The Catholic Church, as with its decision to abandon its historic prohibition against divorce and remarriage, will follow the crowd rather than lose members. I mean, 100,000 "annulments" in the USA alone surely aren't granted annually just because the church has nothing else to do with its time!

 

[~Anastasia~]

Well, that is the answer, but the question we were talking about most recently concerned HOW MANY of the saved will experience Purgatory.

While the Catholic Church's position is that the overwhelming majority of people who are heaven-bound--in fact almost all of them--will go to Purgatory, you've seen how certain Catholic posters here are almost desperate to counter that understanding. This is important to note because it's the very reason that the Church itself is engaged in a campaign to minimize Purgatory without doing away with it...and that's because hardly any Catholics these days are willing to believe that they will go there, even though their church's position is that almost all of them will. That's why Limbo was junked and the Church's position on remarriages and homosexuality are steadily being softened--"membership retention" concerns.

yes realize conversation turned mre to that, and i waass interested in it as well. i thought Alonso was respnding to my op and wanted to thank so not to forget. i hope to rejoin convo soon

 

[Alonso_Castillo]

I suppose that one answer would be that all sorts of denominations have made that move, like it or not, and many Catholic laymen are supportive of it. The Catholic Church, as with its decision to abandon its historic prohibition against divorce and remarriage, will follow the crowd rather than lose members. I mean, 100,000 "annulments" in the USA alone surely aren't granted annually just because the church has nothing else to do with its time!

The Catholic Church Has not changed even with Paul VI who reformed the Liturgy's language.

 

[ev-8891]

Not everybody would go through Purgatory, only the saved ones

There are two groups within the saved ones: those who received Jesus will go straightforward to heaven, and those who will be fried in the faith purification system.

the others are going straight to hell...

Does it include the 2% described here? http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28282050
You know, as per recent definition of deadly sins: http://www.foxnews.com/story/2008/0...-including-damaging-environment-and-drug.html