On Purgatory

ev-8891 said:

There are two groups within the saved ones: those who received Jesus will go straightforward to heaven.

Click to expand...

Because there is no Purgatory, the saved will indeed go straight to heaven. But according to the Catholic Church which created and defined Purgatory, receiving Jesus will not be sufficient for anyone to avoid Purgatory. There is Purgatory awaiting for anyone who ever committed any Mortal Sin or died with an unforgiven Venial sin on his soul.

Albion said:

Because there is no Purgatory, the saved will indeed go straight to heaven. But according to the Catholic Church which created and defined Purgatory, receiving Jesus will not be sufficient for anyone to avoid Purgatory. There is Purgatory awaiting for anyone who ever committed any Mortal Sin or died with an unforgiven Venial sin on his soul.

Click to expand...

I used to have that. Born and being devoted Catholic for 24 years, having attended several another congregations like Baptist and Reformed Evangelical as well, now I have a solution which is more catholic (=universal) than ever:
1. Those who have chosen to believe and received Jesus as the Son of God and acknowledge Him with open heart will go straightforward to heaven
2. Those who decided to have institutional salvation with distorted faith mixed with some human invention but still committed Christian life will be fried in the faith purification system before going to heaven, because 1). their faith and works are impure (nothing impure can enter heaven), and 2). they choose to do so anyway...

How d'ya think about my proposed solution?

I think none of us is able to change what Purgatory is. The Catholic Church invented it and defined how it is supposed to work. Your "proposed solution" actually does make more sense than Purgatory, but IMHO it doesn't make as much sense as saying there is no such thing as Purgatory.

Albion said:

there is no such thing as Purgatory.

Click to expand...

For us maybe... But if there is a group who explicitly wants to be fried, can you even forbid them?

ev-8891 said:

For us maybe... But if there is a group who explicitly wants to be fried, can you even forbid them?

Click to expand...

Forbid them from believing in a Purgatory? No. But your proposal wasn't to do that. It was to create a substitute for Purgatory. Catholics wouldn't go for that change and Protestants don't believe there is any such thing no matter how the details are tinkered with.

While the purpose of this thread was explicitly to ask what Catholics taught and not to debate anything ...

I think what is true, is true. I don't believe that God will perform cosmic somersaults in order to provide for each of us whatever we expect or decide to believe is true in the afterlife.

I can see Albion is still up to his lies about the Catholic Church.

http://m.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/oct/15/annulments-plummet-among-us-catholics-amid-fewer-m/

Monk Brendan said:

Is the passage above not definite proof that such a place [Purgatory] exists?

Click to expand...

Not at all. This passage is speaking about the works of Christians, depicted metaphorically as gold, silver, precious stones, etc. It is simply a confirmation that at the Judgement Seat of Christ, every believer will give account for his or her works, which will then be assessed for rewards or lack of rewards.

You're correct, Job, that the way you explain that passage is the way that it is normally understood. Even by the Catholic interpretation, it hardly deals with enough that makes Purgatory what Purgatory is supposed to be and do for it to be used as a proof text anyway.

Monk Brendan said:

1 Cor:3:12-13 says (KJV) "Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is."

According to classic Catholic belief Purgatory is a place of burning fire, that does the final refining of the gold, silver and precious stones. Is the passage above not definite proof that such a place exists?

Click to expand...

Here is a nice commentary on these particular verses.



Ver. 12-15. Now if any man build, &c. This is a hard place, says S. Aug. l. de fid. & Oper. c. xvi. tom. 6. p. 180. The interpreters are divided, as to the explication and application of this metaphorical comparison, contained in these four verses. S. Paul speaks of a building, where it is evident, says S. Aug. that the foundation is Christ, or the faith of Christ, and his faith working by charity. The difficulties are 1. Who are the builders. 2. What is meant by gold, silver, precious stones, and what by wood, hay, stubble. 3. What is meant by the day of the Lord. 4. What by fire, how every one's work shall be tried, and how some shall be saved by fire. As to the first, by the builders, as S. Paul had before called himself the first architect, who had laid the foundation of the faith of Christ among the Corinthians, interpreters commonly understand those doctors and preachers who there succeeded S. Paul: but as it is also said, that every man's works shall be made manifest, S. Aug. and others understand not the preachers only, but all the faithful. As to the second difficulty, if by the builders we understand the preachers of the gospel, then by gold, silver, &c., is to be understood, good, sound, and profitable doctrine; and by wood, hay, stubble, a mixture of vain knowledge, empty flourishes, unprofitable discourses; but if all the faithful are builders, they whose actions are pure, lay gold upon the foundation; but if their actions are mixed with imperfections, venial failings, and lesser sins, these are represented by wood, hay, stubble, &c. 3. By the day of the Lord, is commonly understood either the day of general judgment, or the particular judgment, when every one is judged at his death, which sentence shall be confirmed again at the last day. 4. As to fire, which is mentioned thrice, if we consider what S. Paul says here of fire, he seems to use it in different significations, as he many times does other words. First, he tells us, (v. 13.) that the day of the Lord . . . shall be revealed; or, as it is in the Greek, is revealed in, or by fire; where, by fire, is commonly understood the just and severe judgments of God, represented by the metaphor of fire. Secondly, he tells us in the same verse, that fire shall try every one's work, of what sort it is. This may be again taken for the examining and trying fire of God's judgments: and may be applied to the builders, whether preachers only or all the faithful. Thirdly, he tells us, (v. 14. and 15.) that some men's works abide the fire of God's judgments, they deserve no punishment, they are like pure gold, which receives no prejudice from the fire: but some men's works burn, the superstructure, which they built upon the faith of Christ, besides gold, silver, precious stones, had also a mixture of wood, hay, stubble, which could not stand the trial of fire, which met with combustible matter, that deserved to be burnt. Every such man shall suffer a loss, when his works are burnt, but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire. Here the apostle speaks of fire in a more ample signification: of a fire which shall not only try, and examine, but also burn, and punish the builders, who notwithstanding shall also, after a time, escape from the fire, and be saved by fire, and in the day of the Lord, that is, after life (for the time of this life is the day of men). Divers of the ancient fathers, as well as later interpreters, from these words, prove the Catholic doctrine of a purgatory, that is, that many Christians, who die guilty, not of heinous or mortal sins, but of lesser, and what are called venial sins, or to whom a temporal punishment for the sins they have committed, still remains due, before they can be admitted to a reward in heaven, (into which nothing defiled or unclean can enter) must suffer some punishments for a time, in some place, which is called Purgatory, and in such a manner, as is agreeable to the divine justice, before their reward in heaven. These words of the apostle, the Latin Fathers in the Council of Florence[1] brought against the Greeks to prove purgatory, to which the Greeks (who did not deny a purgatory, or a third place, where souls guilty of lesser sins were to suffer for a time) made answer, that these words of S. Paul were expounded by S. Chrys. and some of their Greek Fathers (which is true) of the wicked in hell, who are said to be saved by fire, inasmuch as they always subsist and continue in those flames, and are not destroyed by them: but this interpretation, as the Latin bishops replied, is not agreeable to the style of the holy Scriptures, in which, to be saved, both in the Greek and Latin, is expressed the salvation and happiness of souls in heaven. It may not be amiss to take notice that the Greeks, before they met with the Latins at Ferrara, of Florence, did not deny the Catholic doctrine of purgatory. They admitted a third place, where souls guilty of lesser sins, suffered for a time, till cleansed from such sins: they allowed that the souls there detained from the vision of God, might be assisted by the prayers of the faithful: they called this purgatory a place of darkness, of sorrow, of punishments, and pains, but they did not allow there a true and material fire, which the Council did not judge necessary to decide and define against them, as appears in the definition of the Council. Conc. Labb tom. xiii. p. 515. Wi. — The fire of which S. Paul here speaks, is the fire of purgatory, according to the Fathers, and all Catholic divines. Calmet. — S. Augustin, expounding Ps. xxxvii. v. 1. gives the proper distinction between this fire of purgatory and that of hell: both are punishments, one temporary, the other eternal; the latter to punish us in God's justice, the former to amend us in his mercy.

The members of RCC (and probably many other Orthodox churches) are very consistent in their "inner value", accepting authoritative things without question and copying a lot of texts, as many as possible, with hardly being able to extract the essence.

This is inline with the bureaucracy of traditions, which contains a lot of texts and not so many of them are actually reading it Also very adequate with traditional Italian culture and their Latin derivative including the whole South America, no question to authority just "accept everything from above". Ever wondered why Southern America and Southern Europe are most probably more corrupt than their northern counterparts?

What I love about the Catholic Church is everything She teaches is accessible to anyone. Her teachings have stood the test of time (close to 2,000 years of assault from heretics from within and people from outside Her). All I need to do is follow in the footsteps of those who came before me making sure what I believe and what I teach my children is consistent with what She has taught for almost 2,000 years.

What I love about the RCC is the invention of faith purification system in late 1100, which is I find very necessary to fry them because of:

1. bureaucratic based salvation
2. impure and confusing teaching mixed with Italo-Latin culture (nothing impure will ever enter Heaven)
3. corrupt clergies including those heretics described here: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28282050
4. maintaining the absolute and always right position, hence showing no need of repentance

That's quite different direct and independent Jesus' follower. What I love about Bible is it's accesible to anyone in a lot of languages. The bible starts around 3400 years, older than any other 2000 years self-proclaiming church.

ev-8891 said:

What I love about the RCC is the invention of faith purification system in late 1100, which is I find very necessary to fry them because of:

1. bureaucratic based salvation
2. impure and confusing teaching mixed with Italo-Latin culture (nothing impure will ever enter Heaven)
3. corrupt clergies including those heretics described here: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28282050
4. maintaining the absolute and always right position, hence showing no need of repentance

That's quite different direct and independent Jesus' follower. What I love about Bible is it's accesible to anyone in a lot of languages. The bible starts around 3400 years, older than any other 2000 years self-proclaiming church.

Click to expand...

You will find much of what you described here in many churches, including Protestant churches...especially with 2, 3 and even 4. Also, you are projecting your view on all Roman Catholics, which is not an accurate view. I am not Roman Catholic - in fact, I disagree with several very important dogmatic beliefs - but I don't like anyone stating false statements about any church.

All4Christ said:

You will find much of what you described here in many churches, including Protestant churches...especially with 2, 3 and even 4. Also, you are projecting your view on all Roman Catholics, which is not an accurate view. I am not Roman Catholic - in fact, I disagree with several very important dogmatic beliefs - but I don't like anyone stating false statements about any church.

Click to expand...

It could be. Even that I don't belong to any Protestant churches either, I can say that most Protestant churches have less cultural influence. 3) might be true for Protestant churches, but who again claimed as "the largest, the only true church ever Christ has built" because they existed for 2000 years? I acknowledge that there might be Protestant churches, mostly in the US is more business than being a body of Christ due to tithing requirement. But I am neither of those, even that I visited Protestant churches recently more than RCC. And yes, I was baptized as Catholic!

Like I said, most Catholics never question the authority due to their corrupt Italo-Latin-Roman influence, and exactly because of that there is only one thing 'normal Catholics' would understand: critics = heresy. In Europe & America the general rule is, the southern you go, the more corrupt they will be. Where is the root of mafia again? I don't think in Scandinavia. And who are more involved in drugs dealing in America? I don't think the northern part.

Just because something exists for 2000 years, it doesn't mean it must always be the only truth. God has different programs for different times.But who claimed 2000 years existence = the only truth? I can say that Buddhism and Hinduism exist more than 2000 years.

All of that wouldn't be necessary for a discussion if RCC doesn't state they are the only true church. And what's wrong about the statement of that paedo-clergies? It wasn't me who said the 2%. Look at who actually said that, definitely NOT me!

Here a bonus: http://www.catholicherald.co.uk/com...church-must-stop-carrying-out-mafia-funerals/
Last week saw the funeral in Rome of the 65-year-old alleged Mafia boss, Vittorio Casamonica, which took place in the Catholic parish church of Don Bosco in the Cinecittà district of the city. The funeral was extravagant in the extreme.

The source is even a Catholic related news (because if I cite Protestant based news then of course the most RCC members argue it for being invalid). Again, the authority = the only truth = no question = very suitable to romanic culture.