Sigh all you want, but I'm in no mood to play another game of hide and seek. One fruitless digression was enough.
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Sigh all you want, but I'm in no mood to play another game of hide and seek. One fruitless digression was enough.*sigh*, read more deeply. Its in the part where God can be seen in his creation so that we are without excuse. Romans chapter 1 and 2
Paug didn't say it did. He's saying that god knew the choices he would make and the eventuality of it all: an eternity in hell. God chose not to intervene to keep him out of hell. And, being omnipotent, god would have known this before paug was even born.
Paug was born to end up in hell. If he wasn't than what god saw---paug ending up in hell---was false. Think your god has false perceptions?
What do you mean "IF"? Isn't god omniscient?CreedIsChrist said:If he knew paug would end up in hell he knew it was because of Paugs choices.
Who said he wasn't created? The whole premise here is that paug IS a created entity.Not creating Paug just for this fact would conflict with justice and the equal opprotunity of all of the other human beings.
So when god intervenes in human affairs---how many, many, many times have we heard of people thanking god for stepping in, UNBIDDEN, to help them ---- we're not puppets on strings. Care to clarify when god's stepping in amounts to puppetry and when it doesn't?If God chose to intervene then we would essentiually be puppets on strings that God pulls and become robots with not being able to choose.
Irrelevant to god's watching someone be born and knowing that infant will end up in hell.And without choice there can be no love(since love cannot be forced) And that would conflict with freedom and justice.
What the * * * * is this?God has the Sun rise on the Good and the bad, and gives water to the good and the bad. He gives everyone on earth a chance to chose or reject him. I mean he came down here to earth and died for us! how much does he show that he wants us to turn to him! even at the expense of being hung on a cross, tortured and spit at!. And you question God's love? For the things the human race has done we don't even deserve to goto heaven!
What do you mean "IF"? Isn't god omniscient?
Who said he wasn't created? The whole premise here is that paug IS a created entity.
So when god intervenes in human affairs---how many, many, many times have we heard of people thanking god for stepping in, UNBIDDEN, to help them ---- we're not puppets on strings. Care to clarify when god's stepping in amounts to puppetry and when it doesn't?
Irrelevant to god's watching someone be born and knowing that infant will end up in hell.
What the * * * * is this?
So when god intervenes in human affairs---how many, many, many times have we heard of people thanking god for stepping in, UNBIDDEN, to help them ---- we're not puppets on strings. Care to clarify when god's stepping in amounts to puppetry and when it doesn't?
Irrelevant to god's watching someone be born and knowing that infant will end up in hell.
My mistake in thinking you believed, as almost every other Christian does, that god is, for a fact, omniscient.CreedIsChrist said:No I said IF because I myself don't know. Only God knows.
That's simply our working premise here. That he IS going to hell.And we cannot 100% assume Paug is going to hell.
So, although god knows paug's decisions will put him in hell, he has to create him anyway because if he didn't then paug would be controlling what god did. Then god is actually prevented from not creating paug by paug's actions. Paug's future actions determine that he has to be born. So god is controlled by paug after all.You didn't understand my post. Read again. If God didn't create Paug for the simple fact that he was evil or a failure then it would be Paug's decisions controlling what God does.
You evidently missed my "UNBIDDEN," which means not bidden, not asked, uninvited. There was no prayer or prior communication with god. The acknowledgment, the thanking, that god intervened came AFTER the incident. People claim god intervened on their behalf not because they prayed or communicated with god, but because, for whatever reason, they are convinced this is exactly what happened. Think of a sudden, very serious, accident in which person survives against all odds. He had no time to pray or do anything else during the accident, but later on is absolutely certain god intervened. Heck, I've heard preachers do this very thing, claiming it was god who stepped in and saved Joe Blow from the sudden clutches of certain death. Are you saying that in none of these cases god didn't do just that? Intervened without being asked?Its called prayer. Prayer opens up our will to God and is an active giving oneself to God and his plan. Again God does show himself and intervenes, but not to the point of effecting our free will. There is still always the choice to chose or deny. Even miracles can be denied and still are denied to this day by skeptics.
Which simply brings us back to the beginning. Millions of years ago god creates the universe and the earth, and being omniscient he knows that far, far, in the future an entity called paug will be born, grow up, make choices, die, and suffer in hell for all of eternity. Sound like a loving god to you? For a relatively very, very, short time--- say 66 years--- paug blows his chance and must forever suffer in hell. So for what purpose did god allow paug to be born in the first place? Millions, and millions, and millions of such people never make it into heaven, and god knew they wouldn't, but allowed them to be born and fail anyway. For a test lasting a few years, most often a test they were unaware of and hapless to change, they get saddled with the agony of hell for eternity. To me this hardly qualifies as love. Particularly when one recognizes that god knew this is how their lives would turn out way before they were born.No its not irrelevant. . By letting off the unsaved person, he essentially nullifys what he did on the cross and the Passion. God would not be just anymore, and thus God would not be loving anymore. But God is love, so he must adminster justice for his glory.
And what of those who have never heard of your god and his requirments for salvation. Or, for that matter, hear but for whatever reason remain unconvinced? Is it their fault that YOU or the preacher down the block does such a lousy job of getting the "word" across that these people remain unconvinced? At exactly what point does the liabilty change from your poor attempt to get the word across to my resonsibility for not believing you? I choose to not buy your story about Christian salvation, so, my fault for not being convinced or your fault for not being convincing enough?Oneofthediaspora said:Hell is the state a souls chooses of its own free will if it prefers to be outside of the prescence of God. This is orthodox Christianity despite what Pastor Jim might like to say on the matter.
My fault for not being able to communicate the idea properly.And what of those who have never heard of your god and his requirments for salvation. Or, for that matter, hear but for whatever reason remain unconvinced? Is it their fault that YOU or the preacher down the block does such a lousy job of getting the "word" across that these people remain unconvinced? At exactly what point does the liabilty change from your poor attempt to get the word across to my resonsibility for not believing you? I choose to not buy your story about Christian salvation, so, my fault for not being convinced or your fault for not being convincing enough?
What happens to the honest disbeliever?
(A lot hinges on that word honest). If you want to know God, ultimately you will know him. If you choose not to know Him. That's your choice.
How can someone who wants to know God qualify as a disbeliever, honest or otherwise?Depends on the firmness of their disbelief. To say "I know beyond all shadow of a doubt that God does not exist" is a faith position. Such a thing can simply not be "known". I would suggest to such a person that they really should think about what can be "known" and what can not be "known". Once having learned a bit about epistemiology they may want to rethink their statement. When they have done so; they can choose to rid themsleves of a lot of the emotional, cultural and psychological baggage that exists around the word "God". When they have done this, they can question how honest their disbelief really is. When they have done this, they can "OK, God's existence cannot be proved or disproved. Many people say He can be experienced though. Do I want to bother about this or not?"
See above.How can one want to know someone whom one doesn't believe exists?
(BTW, you're right; it's not rocket science is it?)
Depends on the firmness of their disbelief. To say "I know beyond all shadow of a doubt that God does not exist" is a faith position. Such a thing can simply not be "known". I would suggest to such a person that they really should think about what can be "known" and what can not be "known". Once having learned a bit about epistemiology they may want to rethink their statement. When they have done so; they can choose to rid themsleves of a lot of the emotional, cultural and psychological baggage that exists around the word "God". When they have done this, they can question how honest their disbelief really is. When they have done this, they can "OK, God's existence cannot be proved or disproved. Many people say He can be experienced though. Do I want to bother about this or not?"
(BTW, you're right; it's not rocket science is it?)
It's all too hard to discern literal meanings and metaphorical meanings in the bible. It's not quite as "clear as day" as many claim it to be.
I am an unbeliever. I am taking an undergraduate degree in philosophy and theology. I am not sitting on my backside ignoring the issue. I study it daily. But I remain an unbeliever, because I remain unconvinced by the arguments in favour of the existence of God and I am yet to have a personally convincing experience of her. What do I deeserve?
So... if those who don't accept Jesus as their Savior go to Hell, then why doesn't God just kill off the atheists? Why does he let them live only to be tortured in the flames of Hell for all eternity?
E.g. surely God always knew that I would become an atheist, he always knew I wouldn't accept the teachings of Jesus Christ nor the Scripture, so why allow me to live only to cast me into the fiery pits of Hell? Doesn't sound awfully benevolent to me.
And what about the arbitrary tribe in sub-saharan Africa, the Mwujambu. They give birth to a baby boy, but this boy nor his family have never heard of Christianity or the Trinity and all that. So then the baby boy dies of malaria/whatever and then finds himself at the gates of Hell.
"Oh, sorry little boy, the missionaries weren't due to visit your tribe in another 4 months. Sorry, but in you go!"
A pat on the back and a sticky bun
I wouldn't get too hung up on what a person deserves. It would be a pretty horrible life if we only ever got what we deserved now wouldn't it?
I take it that what you are saying (amongst other things) is that if/when you experience God you are unlikely to say "Hold on! This can not be true because I have made my mind up on this one; so go away and leave me alone."
I would suggest that each time you employ your ability to reason you are having an experience of God; but that will need another thread.
Be patient and keep an open heart/mind.
I wonder how much Purgatory is about educating us as it is about cleansing us?
No, the only thing I knew about his question was that he was deliberately misrepresenting what Christianity teaches in order to paint Christianity in a bad light.
Like I said foreknowledge dosen't affect our free will. If he knew paug would end up in hell he knew it was because of Paugs choices. Not creating Paug just for this fact would conflict with justice and the equal opprotunity of all of the other human beings.
CreedIsChrist said:If God chose to intervene then we would essentiually be puppets on strings that God pulls and become robots with not being able to choose.
PreachersWife2004 said:If I knew you wouldn't budge off the train tracks no matter how hard I pushed, but I kept telling you about the train coming, would your death still be on my hands when the train came and killed you?
So... if those who don't accept Jesus as their Savior go to Hell, then why doesn't God just kill off the atheists? Why does he let them live only to be tortured in the flames of Hell for all eternity?
E.g. surely God always knew that I would become an atheist, he always knew I wouldn't accept the teachings of Jesus Christ nor the Scripture, so why allow me to live only to cast me into the fiery pits of Hell? Doesn't sound awfully benevolent to me.
And what about the arbitrary tribe in sub-saharan Africa, the Mwujambu. They give birth to a baby boy, but this boy nor his family have never heard of Christianity or the Trinity and all that. So then the baby boy dies of malaria/whatever and then finds himself at the gates of Hell.
"Oh, sorry little boy, the missionaries weren't due to visit your tribe in another 4 months. Sorry, but in you go!"
From beginning to end.Oneofthediaspora said:Did you read the rest of my post BTW?
I assume this is after I die, and am, what, sitting in purgatory where to my right I can see the golden steps ascending to heaven and to my left the fires of hell? Gee, can I have a minute here please. This is a toughy.You will be given a choice ultimately.
Whoa! there a minute. Exactly what is this desire of god that I have a free will "to be what He wants [me] to be"? What kind of free will is that? Evidently you think that free will involves acceding to god's desires. Sorry, but that's not a definition of free will I've ever seen.Suspend your disbelief for a second for the purposes of a thought experiment.
Imagine God exists. He wants you to conform of your own volition and free will to be what He wants you to be.
What illusion is that? If I buy into your claim that your god exists I assume I would already be pretty much like you: a believing Christian. Therefore your premise automatically changes the whole landscape of my belief, and your subsequent questions become moot.Would you be willing to do this even though it will involve psychic pain and suffering and leaving aside much of the illusion that you regard as yourself?
See cantata's answer in post # 133 and her post to your reply in # 135What happens to the honest disbeliever?
Whoa! there a minute. Exactly what is this desire of god that I have a free will "to be what He wants [me] to be"? What kind of free will is that? Evidently you think that free will involves acceding to god's desires. Sorry, but that's not a definition of free will I've ever seen.
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