On atheists and Hell...

[Washington]

An unbeliever cannot accept Christ. Faith comes from the Spirit, not human choice.

In which case our final destination is all up to this spirit thing. How neat for us.

 

[Garyzenuf]

In which case our final destination is all up to this spirit thing. How neat for us.

Ya beat me to the question...I hope this means if there was a hell we may go there, but it wouldn't be our fault.

I guess that would be some conciliation.

*

 

[Freodin]

An unbeliever cannot accept Christ. Faith comes from the Spirit, not human choice.

If I cannot accept Christ, then what am I doing? Do I reject Christ because I do not accept Christ? Or is it some kind of neutral attitude?

 

[mpok1519]

An unbeliever cannot accept Christ. Faith comes from the Spirit, not human choice.

yes; saying that "Its not a choice, its up to the spirit" is like saying "We don't have free will."

Thats like saying "It doesn't matter what choices/decisions you make in life, everything has already been decided for you and it isn't even you making those decisions, yet, people will still hold you repsonsible for those decisions, even though it was never your choice, it was God's choice. It was also God's choice to have people hold oyu accountable for things of which you have no accountability, ie, lack of decisions making ability bc of a lack of free-will."

Isn't it amazing what people actually think in this world? Its quite astonishing, and frightening. I'm not scared of hell, I'm scared of people who are so blind by reality and truth; people who are blind to reality and truth basicaly make a veritable hell here on earth.

I believe in hell; and its right here on earth, living with crazy people. Thats what hell is; being unable to live life as one wishes bc there are people out there who would love nothing more than to see you living life as THEY want you to live.

Thats hell; hell is lack of freedom.

And if divine destiny is true, an free will doesn't exist, then we already are in hell.

 

[SpankyZeHam]

An unbeliever cannot accept Christ. Faith comes from the Spirit, not human choice.

So I'm gonna be sent to hell because the Spirit got lazy, well that's nice to know. The Lord is just.

 

[MaxP]

An unbeliever cannot accept Christ. Faith comes from the Spirit, not human choice.

Thanks for contradicting the nature of free will and making all Christians look like fools.
You're wrong; faith comes from the Spirit, but first it must be out own choice to look into and recognize the Truth.

 

[Beanieboy]

That is one of the things I was taught by a Prof when we were studying Lutheranism. He said that if your heart is opened to God, is is all the Spirit's doing, but if you close your heart to God, it is your fault. Someone asked, "How does one close a door that isn't open?"

It was like a Buddhist riddle, and the prof couldn't answer.

I think one of the other problems with atheism/hell examining what is meant by "believing in God."

I believe in George Bush (existence), but I don't believe in him as a president.
I know he IS the president, but have no confidence in him.

So, an atheist can't reject Christ anymore than I can reject the Easter Bunny. However, I can reject George Bush, and do. He is a terrible president.

Therefore, it is like me meeting the Easter Bunny when I die, and him saying, "Come on. I gave you all that chocolate, and you rejected me?" and me saying, "No. I didn't know you existed. They said you were my parents..."

 

[Jane_the_Bane]

Predestination turns God into a monster: what else should we call a being that randomly samples a few wretches to fawn at him for eternity and desires the (no more and no less deserving) rest to suffer neverending torment?
Such a sense of sovereignty eliminates the omnipotence-dilemma of the theodicy-argument, yet creates serious moral issues in its place:
if something bad happens, it does happen because God wills it - yet that means that God not only desires people to suffer horrible fates on this earth, but has no qualms whatsoever about tormenting people for being and doing exactly what he intended them to be and do.

 

[Beanieboy]

My belief is that when one "accepts Jesus", Jesus does not enter, because God is within us all the time anyway. Rather, it is accepting the spirit of Jesus to govern you, listening to the inner voice that all of us have. It accepts our loving nature, in sacrifice of our selfish nature. It acknowledges the divine within us and each other.

One accepts that truth, and nothing more. One lets God guide them.

I have seen many guided and misguided atheists, regardless of what they call it, and seen guided and misguided Christians. What one is really submitting to is love, and acting in love.

 

[BreadAlone]

Thanks for contradicting the nature of free will and making all Christians look like fools.
You're wrong; faith comes from the Spirit, but first it must be out own choice to look into and recognize the Truth.

You, sir, are the one who misunderstands. Humanity is totally depraved; slave to sin, and in its entirety not free. (Do you see the contradiction with saying that we have a "free" will is yet?) How can a species in which "there are none who do good, not even one," and are by nature enemies of God, be capable to chose God? That is simply not possible. The Holy Spirit is the one who calls us by the gospel and breathes spiritual life back into our dead souls. We can do nothing first; God is the one who does all the first work.

 

[Kattylove]

My personal view on this is as follows.

Point number one - no matter what moral standard we may have come to live by, what we ourselves want to uphold - according to the Bible, the penalty for sin is death. This is just the way that things are. God has a character, and this character is absolute in the Universe: it defines what is perfectly just in the grand scheme of things. Whether we like it or not, this is the case. It is not God being 'mean', it is not God being 'unfair': it is justice itself.

Point number two. God loves each and every one of us. He wants us all to spend eternity with Him in Heaven, and I quote from the Bible: "God the saviour, who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth."

Considering points one and two together now, and applying them to the Heaven/Hell situation: the character of God, in its perfectly loving and just state, has given humanity the gift of free will. We are not robots, hardwired to worship God meaninglessly; God has the ability to make decisions, and He has passed that on to us. In the same way, His love and justice requires that we are all created as eternal beings, that we all have the opportunity to be with God forever in Heaven. Accepting the Heaven and Hell scenario depends profoundly on accepting that humans have these two rights, the right to immortality and the right to free will. These don't seem like such bad things, right?

Like I said before, the penalty for sin is death. Death not as the violation of one's right to immortality, the end of their existence, but death as the opposite of life in Heaven - existence without God. Without violating our right to exist and our right to choose, God made it clear that it's really not much fun down there without Him. In his own words: "I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing; therefore choose life". He cannot force us to choose life; but He gives us all the reason in the world to do it without tampering with our free will. Showing "mercy" and killing off anyone who doesn't believe in Him violates God's very own character and His perfect justice, as He also promised us immortality.

God wants us to be in Heaven but his perfect nature requires that we choose to be there - and Hell is simply the bare alternative to choosing to spend eternity alongside God. Let's remember that it was fallen angels who originally called for Hell to exist, by leaving God's side. There had to be somewhere for them to be where they didn't corrupt the holiness of Heaven, of God's direct presence - so He had to take their choice into account and allow them a place where He does not exist. The same now goes for humans - the simple fact is that sin cannot be in Heaven, but it doesn't mean God doesn't want us there.

God has done absolutely everything possible (consider the whole Jesus thing!) without taking away our rights to exist and to choose what we do and believe. Does that sound merciless to you?

 

[BreadAlone]

In which case our final destination is all up to this spirit thing. How neat for us.

God gives everyone the ability to be saved. If after such lengths, and after a person has been given the opportunity to be spiritually alive, they choose to remain God's enemy, He will not force Himself upon anyone.

Ya beat me to the question...I hope this means if there was a hell we may go there, but it wouldn't be our fault.

I guess that would be some conciliation.

*

It will be your fault, because you were given every opportunity, and yet pushed it away, and so you get what you wanted (which is an eternity apart from God. He won't spirit-rape you by forcing you to be with Him eternally.)

If I cannot accept Christ, then what am I doing? Do I reject Christ because I do not accept Christ? Or is it some kind of neutral attitude?

See above.

So I'm gonna be sent to hell because the Spirit got lazy, well that's nice to know. The Lord is just.

You're going to go where you want to go because you resisted the Spirit who was working on your heart, should you not Convert.

Predestination turns God into a monster: what else should we call a being that randomly samples a few wretches to fawn at him for eternity and desires the (no more and no less deserving) rest to suffer neverending torment?
Such a sense of sovereignty eliminates the omnipotence-dilemma of the theodicy-argument, yet creates serious moral issues in its place:
if something bad happens, it does happen because God wills it - yet that means that God not only desires people to suffer horrible fates on this earth, but has no qualms whatsoever about tormenting people for being and doing exactly what he intended them to be and do.

I believe you're referring to *double*-predestination. That's not what I'm talking about. God has chosen all to be saved, yet some simply refuse the saving and would rather not spend their lives forever with God. As I've stated numerous times, He *WON'T* force anyone..

 

[BreadAlone]

This is very well-put.

[snip]

Hell is simply the bare alternative to choosing to spend eternity alongside God. Let's remember that it was fallen angels who originally called for Hell to exist, by leaving God's side. There had to be somewhere for them to be where they didn't corrupt the holiness of Heaven, of God's direct presence - so He had to take their choice into account and allow them a place where He does not exist. The same now goes for humans - the simple fact is that sin cannot be in Heaven, but it doesn't mean God doesn't want us there.

[snip]

 

[MaxP]

You, sir, are the one who misunderstands. Humanity is totally depraved; slave to sin, and in its entirety not free. (Do you see the contradiction with saying that we have a "free" will is yet?) How can a species in which "there are none who do good, not even one," and are by nature enemies of God, be capable to chose God? That is simply not possible. The Holy Spirit is the one who calls us by the gospel and breathes spiritual life back into our dead souls. We can do nothing first; God is the one who does all the first work.

How can we be created in the image and likeness of God and be totally contrary to God's will at the same time?
Why does Genesis say(after the creation of man) "And God saw everything He had made, and behold, it was very good." (Genesis 1:31)
We can't be inherently bad. We choose or reject God by our own choice, we choose or reject sin. Hence baptism is the rejection of the Original Sin.
Humans are created in their very nature to have free will, or they cannot choose God.

 

[Jane_the_Bane]

If God has chosen *all* to be saved, and we are completely un-free to choose God on our own, how can there be as much as a single inmate of hell?
It's as if you claimed that the captain pulls every shipwrecked person out of the freezing water, yet there are obviously people in the ocean that are not rescued.

You rightly recognized that "free will" is an oxymoron: if we are saved, it is because of God. So, do you think that God fails in some cases? If all are equally depraved, equally undeserving, equally incapable, and it is God's influence that pulls people free - then what sets the Saved apart from the Unsaved?

 

[Freodin]

You, sir, are the one who misunderstands. Humanity is totally depraved; slave to sin, and in its entirety not free. (Do you see the contradiction with saying that we have a "free" will is yet?) How can a species in which "there are none who do good, not even one," and are by nature enemies of God, be capable to chose God? That is simply not possible. The Holy Spirit is the one who calls us by the gospel and breathes spiritual life back into our dead souls. We can do nothing first; God is the one who does all the first work.

That is... unnecessecarily complicated.

If I follow your reasoning correctly, ALL humans are called by the Holy Spirit, but some humans refuse to follow. Why do they? Because, as you say, "they choose to remain God's enemy".

So the choice is theirs. Irrelevant whether this ability to chose is inherent in the created human, or at some point installed in humans... it is their free will that makes the choice.

 

[tapero]

MOD HAT

Thread closed for Review
After review thread will remain permanently closed.

Off-topic
Start threads that are relevant to that forum's stated purpose (forum-specific guidelines will determine what is and is not relevant to that forum); submit replies that are relevant to the topic of discussion.

​