On atheists and Hell...

[Washington]

*sigh*, read more deeply. Its in the part where God can be seen in his creation so that we are without excuse. Romans chapter 1 and 2

Sigh all you want, but I'm in no mood to play another game of hide and seek. One fruitless digression was enough.

 

[CreedIsChrist]

Paug didn't say it did. He's saying that god knew the choices he would make and the eventuality of it all: an eternity in hell. God chose not to intervene to keep him out of hell. And, being omnipotent, god would have known this before paug was even born.

Paug was born to end up in hell. If he wasn't than what god saw---paug ending up in hell---was false. Think your god has false perceptions?

Like I said foreknowledge dosen't affect our free will. If he knew paug would end up in hell he knew it was because of Paugs choices. Not creating Paug just for this fact would conflict with justice and the equal opprotunity of all of the other human beings.

If God chose to intervene then we would essentiually be puppets on strings that God pulls and become robots with not being able to choose. And without choice there can be no love(since love cannot be forced) And that would conflict with freedom and justice.

God has the Sun rise on the Good and the bad, and gives water to the good and the bad. He gives everyone on earth a chance to chose or reject him. I mean he came down here to earth and died for us! how much does he show that he wants us to turn to him! even at the expense of being hung on a cross, tortured and spit at!. And you question God's love? For the things the human race has done we don't even deserve to goto heaven!

 

[Washington]

If he knew paug would end up in hell he knew it was because of Paugs choices.

What do you mean "IF"? Isn't god omniscient?

Not creating Paug just for this fact would conflict with justice and the equal opprotunity of all of the other human beings.

Who said he wasn't created? The whole premise here is that paug IS a created entity.

If God chose to intervene then we would essentiually be puppets on strings that God pulls and become robots with not being able to choose.

So when god intervenes in human affairs---how many, many, many times have we heard of people thanking god for stepping in, UNBIDDEN, to help them ---- we're not puppets on strings. Care to clarify when god's stepping in amounts to puppetry and when it doesn't?

And without choice there can be no love(since love cannot be forced) And that would conflict with freedom and justice.

Irrelevant to god's watching someone be born and knowing that infant will end up in hell.

God has the Sun rise on the Good and the bad, and gives water to the good and the bad. He gives everyone on earth a chance to chose or reject him. I mean he came down here to earth and died for us! how much does he show that he wants us to turn to him! even at the expense of being hung on a cross, tortured and spit at!. And you question God's love? For the things the human race has done we don't even deserve to goto heaven!

What the * * * * is this?

 

[CreedIsChrist]

What do you mean "IF"? Isn't god omniscient?

No I said IF because I myself don't know. Only God knows. And we cannot 100% assume Paug is going to hell.

Who said he wasn't created? The whole premise here is that paug IS a created entity.

You didn't understand my post. Read again. If God didn't create Paug for the simple fact that he was evil or a failure then it would be Paug's decisions controlling what God does. God is the potter of the clay not Paug. There is the fact that there are some people who are just evil and bad and probably will end up in hell, just as there are people who are just destined for jail. But again it was their choices that sent them there. God gives everyone a chance as John 3:16 shows us.

So when god intervenes in human affairs---how many, many, many times have we heard of people thanking god for stepping in, UNBIDDEN, to help them ---- we're not puppets on strings. Care to clarify when god's stepping in amounts to puppetry and when it doesn't?

Its called prayer. Prayer opens up our will to God and is an active giving oneself to God and his plan. Again God does show himself and intervenes, but not to the point of effecting our free will. There is still always the choice to chose or deny. Even miracles can be denied and still are denied to this day by skeptics.

Irrelevant to god's watching someone be born and knowing that infant will end up in hell.

No its not irrelevant. God is love, but he is also Just. The 2 cannot be seperated from each other. By letting off the unsaved person, he essentially nullifys what he did on the cross and the Passion. God would not be just anymore, and thus God would not be loving anymore. But God is love, so he must adminster justice for his glory. It would be like going to a court house and having someone pay and bail you out, only for you to say to that person "I don't want your money and don't want you to bail me". By the default of justice you will end up in prison and secondly you have no excuse to complain about the position your in since you rejected your bail.

What the * * * * is this?

Well for the unbeliever I understand this dosen't make sense to you but you need to realize that God loves us enough to come down here on earth and be crucified for our sake. If you don't recognize the love in that then the only thing I can do is pray that you will one day. After the passion we truly are without excuse anymore, and people who reject Him do so by their own stubborness

 

[Oneofthediaspora]

So when god intervenes in human affairs---how many, many, many times have we heard of people thanking god for stepping in, UNBIDDEN, to help them ---- we're not puppets on strings. Care to clarify when god's stepping in amounts to puppetry and when it doesn't?

Irrelevant to god's watching someone be born and knowing that infant will end up in hell.

If you are interested in learning more about this please try Boethius' "Consolation of Philosophy". He explains the apparent difficulties here much better than I could.

Hell is the state a souls chooses of its own free will if it prefers to be outside of the prescence of God. This is orthodox Christianity despite what Pastor Jim might like to say on the matter.
You (I think) asked me what happens to the honest disbeliever. I and other Christians think they will be given a choice.
Understand this though. There are plenty of people who profess to prefer an eternity of ruling over themselves in hell than an eternity of being ruled by God.

 

[Washington]

No I said IF because I myself don't know. Only God knows.

My mistake in thinking you believed, as almost every other Christian does, that god is, for a fact, omniscient.

And we cannot 100% assume Paug is going to hell.

That's simply our working premise here. That he IS going to hell.

You didn't understand my post. Read again. If God didn't create Paug for the simple fact that he was evil or a failure then it would be Paug's decisions controlling what God does.

So, although god knows paug's decisions will put him in hell, he has to create him anyway because if he didn't then paug would be controlling what god did. Then god is actually prevented from not creating paug by paug's actions. Paug's future actions determine that he has to be born. So god is controlled by paug after all.

Its called prayer. Prayer opens up our will to God and is an active giving oneself to God and his plan. Again God does show himself and intervenes, but not to the point of effecting our free will. There is still always the choice to chose or deny. Even miracles can be denied and still are denied to this day by skeptics.

You evidently missed my "UNBIDDEN," which means not bidden, not asked, uninvited. There was no prayer or prior communication with god. The acknowledgment, the thanking, that god intervened came AFTER the incident. People claim god intervened on their behalf not because they prayed or communicated with god, but because, for whatever reason, they are convinced this is exactly what happened. Think of a sudden, very serious, accident in which person survives against all odds. He had no time to pray or do anything else during the accident, but later on is absolutely certain god intervened. Heck, I've heard preachers do this very thing, claiming it was god who stepped in and saved Joe Blow from the sudden clutches of certain death. Are you saying that in none of these cases god didn't do just that? Intervened without being asked?

No its not irrelevant. . By letting off the unsaved person, he essentially nullifys what he did on the cross and the Passion. God would not be just anymore, and thus God would not be loving anymore. But God is love, so he must adminster justice for his glory.

Which simply brings us back to the beginning. Millions of years ago god creates the universe and the earth, and being omniscient he knows that far, far, in the future an entity called paug will be born, grow up, make choices, die, and suffer in hell for all of eternity. Sound like a loving god to you? For a relatively very, very, short time--- say 66 years--- paug blows his chance and must forever suffer in hell. So for what purpose did god allow paug to be born in the first place? Millions, and millions, and millions of such people never make it into heaven, and god knew they wouldn't, but allowed them to be born and fail anyway. For a test lasting a few years, most often a test they were unaware of and hapless to change, they get saddled with the agony of hell for eternity. To me this hardly qualifies as love. Particularly when one recognizes that god knew this is how their lives would turn out way before they were born.

Hell is the state a souls chooses of its own free will if it prefers to be outside of the prescence of God. This is orthodox Christianity despite what Pastor Jim might like to say on the matter.

And what of those who have never heard of your god and his requirments for salvation. Or, for that matter, hear but for whatever reason remain unconvinced? Is it their fault that YOU or the preacher down the block does such a lousy job of getting the "word" across that these people remain unconvinced? At exactly what point does the liabilty change from your poor attempt to get the word across to my resonsibility for not believing you? I choose to not buy your story about Christian salvation, so, my fault for not being convinced or your fault for not being convincing enough?

Christians dearly love to believe it's never their fault for failing to get the message across---incredibly bad as it may be done---but the unbeliever's fault for not buying their message, and therefore ending up in hell.

 

[cantata]

I would be very happy to forfeit my free will in order not to go to Hell. Sign me up.

 

[Oneofthediaspora]

And what of those who have never heard of your god and his requirments for salvation. Or, for that matter, hear but for whatever reason remain unconvinced? Is it their fault that YOU or the preacher down the block does such a lousy job of getting the "word" across that these people remain unconvinced? At exactly what point does the liabilty change from your poor attempt to get the word across to my resonsibility for not believing you? I choose to not buy your story about Christian salvation, so, my fault for not being convinced or your fault for not being convincing enough?

My fault for not being able to communicate the idea properly.

Did you read the rest of my post BTW?

You will be given a choice ultimately.

Suspend your disbelief for a second for the purposes of a thought experiment.
Imagine God exists. He wants you to conform of your own volition and free will to be what He wants you to be.
Would you be willing to do this even though it will involve psychic pain and suffering and leaving aside much of the illusion that you regard as yourself?
If so, the state you will be transformed into ultimately is Heaven.
If not, He won't force you. If you cannot say to Him "Thy will be done", ultimately He will say to you "Thy will be done". The state you will then become is hell.
There are many I imagine who prefer to rule in hell than submit in Heaven.
This is your choice.

What happens to the honest disbeliever?
(A lot hinges on that word honest). If you want to know God, ultimately you will know him. If you choose not to know Him. That's your choice.

 

[cantata]

What happens to the honest disbeliever?
(A lot hinges on that word honest). If you want to know God, ultimately you will know him. If you choose not to know Him. That's your choice.

How can someone who wants to know God qualify as a disbeliever, honest or otherwise?

How can one want to know someone whom one doesn't believe exists?

 

[Oneofthediaspora]

How can someone who wants to know God qualify as a disbeliever, honest or otherwise?

Depends on the firmness of their disbelief. To say "I know beyond all shadow of a doubt that God does not exist" is a faith position. Such a thing can simply not be "known". I would suggest to such a person that they really should think about what can be "known" and what can not be "known". Once having learned a bit about epistemiology they may want to rethink their statement. When they have done so; they can choose to rid themsleves of a lot of the emotional, cultural and psychological baggage that exists around the word "God". When they have done this, they can question how honest their disbelief really is. When they have done this, they can "OK, God's existence cannot be proved or disproved. Many people say He can be experienced though. Do I want to bother about this or not?"

How can one want to know someone whom one doesn't believe exists?

See above.

(BTW, you're right; it's not rocket science is it?)

 

[cantata]

Depends on the firmness of their disbelief. To say "I know beyond all shadow of a doubt that God does not exist" is a faith position. Such a thing can simply not be "known". I would suggest to such a person that they really should think about what can be "known" and what can not be "known". Once having learned a bit about epistemiology they may want to rethink their statement. When they have done so; they can choose to rid themsleves of a lot of the emotional, cultural and psychological baggage that exists around the word "God". When they have done this, they can question how honest their disbelief really is. When they have done this, they can "OK, God's existence cannot be proved or disproved. Many people say He can be experienced though. Do I want to bother about this or not?"

It seems very unfair to me that being bad at or even willfully ignorant of mathematics or geography is not something God minds too much about, but the same attitude towards epistemology and philosophy of religion can buy one eternal damnation.

I am an unbeliever. I am taking an undergraduate degree in philosophy and theology. I am not sitting on my backside ignoring the issue. I study it daily. But I remain an unbeliever, because I remain unconvinced by the arguments in favour of the existence of God and I am yet to have a personally convincing experience of her. What do I deserve?

(BTW, you're right; it's not rocket science is it?)

Nope.

 

[KCKID]

It's all too hard to discern literal meanings and metaphorical meanings in the bible. It's not quite as "clear as day" as many claim it to be.

This one is quite clear. According to the Bible only the righteous attain everlasting life. The opposite to eternal life is ...eternal death. If one suffers eternal torment then that means they have eternal life in order to BE tormented, same as the righteous. This means a HUGE contradiction of scripture.

Besides that, anyone who would torment someone for all eternity is not worthy of anything but contempt. Just think about that for two seconds ...that's all it takes.

To top it off, the Bible tells us that 'hell' is the grave. And, just in case someone raises the scripture pertaining to the Rich Man and Lazarus ...that is a parable. Not only is it a parable but Abraham's Bosom was also a Hebrew fable about the afterlife that Jesus expounded upon to make His point to the audience. There is no such literal place as Abraham's Bosom.

 

[Oneofthediaspora]

I am an unbeliever. I am taking an undergraduate degree in philosophy and theology. I am not sitting on my backside ignoring the issue. I study it daily. But I remain an unbeliever, because I remain unconvinced by the arguments in favour of the existence of God and I am yet to have a personally convincing experience of her. What do I deeserve?

A pat on the back and a sticky bun
I wouldn't get too hung up on what a person deserves. It would be a pretty horrible life if we only ever got what we deserved now wouldn't it?

I take it that what you are saying (amongst other things) is that if/when you experience God you are unlikely to say "Hold on! This can not be true because I have made my mind up on this one; so go away and leave me alone."
I would suggest that each time you employ your ability to reason you are having an experience of God; but that will need another thread.
Be patient and keep an open heart/mind.

I wonder how much Purgatory is about educating us as it is about cleansing us?

 

[ShieldOFaith]

So... if those who don't accept Jesus as their Savior go to Hell, then why doesn't God just kill off the atheists? Why does he let them live only to be tortured in the flames of Hell for all eternity?

E.g. surely God always knew that I would become an atheist, he always knew I wouldn't accept the teachings of Jesus Christ nor the Scripture, so why allow me to live only to cast me into the fiery pits of Hell? Doesn't sound awfully benevolent to me.

And what about the arbitrary tribe in sub-saharan Africa, the Mwujambu. They give birth to a baby boy, but this boy nor his family have never heard of Christianity or the Trinity and all that. So then the baby boy dies of malaria/whatever and then finds himself at the gates of Hell.

"Oh, sorry little boy, the missionaries weren't due to visit your tribe in another 4 months. Sorry, but in you go!"

Paug, howdy.

You are forgetting that GOD is sovereign. It hasn't crossed your mind lately that everything in and outside this universe does not revolve around you. It is HIS universe. You only live in the universe that HE created.

Paug, here is your answer in a nutshell. Get out a Bible and read along. You will understand what Paul the Apostle, St. Augustine, Martin Luther, John Calvin, John Knox...ect. understood.

Read:

[SIZE=+2]T[/SIZE]

Total Depravity (Total Inability)

Total Depravity is probably the most misunderstood tenet of Calvinism. When Calvinists speak of humans as "totally depraved," they are making an extensive, rather than an intensive statement. The effect of the fall upon man is that sin has extended to every part of his personality -- his thinking, his emotions, and his will. Not necessarily that he is intensely sinful, but that sin has extended to his entire being.
The unregenerate (unsaved) man is dead in his sins (Romans 5:12). Without the power of the Holy Spirit, the natural man is blind and deaf to the message of the gospel (Mark 4:11f). This is why Total Depravity has also been called "Total Inability." The man without a knowledge of God will never come to this knowledge without God's making him alive through Christ (Ephesians 2:1-5).
[SIZE=+2]U[/SIZE]

Unconditional Election

Unconditional Election is the doctrine which states that God chose those whom he was pleased to bring to a knowledge of himself, not based upon any merit shown by the object of his grace and not based upon his looking forward to discover who would "accept" the offer of the gospel. God has elected, based solely upon the counsel of his own will, some for glory and others for damnation (Romans 9:15,21). He has done this act before the foundations of the world (Ephesians 1:4-8).
This doctrine does not rule out, however, man's responsibility to believe in the redeeming work of God the Son (John 3:16-18). Scripture presents a tension between God's sovereignty in salvation, and man's responsibility to believe which it does not try to resolve. Both are true -- to deny man's responsibility is to affirm an unbiblical hyper-calvinism; to deny God's sovereignty is to affirm an unbiblical Arminianism.
The elect are saved unto good works (Ephesians 2:10). Thus, though good works will never bridge the gulf between man and God that was formed in the Fall, good works are a result of God's saving grace. This is what Peter means when he admonishes the Christian reader to make his "calling" and "election" sure (2 Peter 1:10). Bearing the fruit of good works is an indication that God has sown seeds of grace in fertile soil.
[SIZE=+2]L[/SIZE]

Limited Atonement (Particular Redemption)

Limited Atonement is a doctrine offered in answer to the question, "for whose sins did Christ atone?" The Bible teaches that Christ died for those whom God gave him to save (John 17:9). Christ died, indeed, for many people, but not all (Matthew 26:28). Specifically, Christ died for the invisible Church -- the sum total of all those who would ever rightly bear the name "Christian" (Ephesians 5:25).
This doctrine often finds many objections, mostly from those who think that Limited Atonement does damage to evangelism. We have already seen that Christ will not lose any that the father has given to him (John 6:37). Christ's death was not a death of potential atonement for all people. Believing that Jesus' death was a potential, symbolic atonement for anyone who might possibly, in the future, accept him trivializes Christ's act of atonement. Christ died to atone for specific sins of specific sinners. Christ died to make holy the church. He did not atone for all men, because obviously all men are not saved. Evangelism is actually lifted up in this doctrine, for the evangelist may tell his congregation that Christ died for sinners, and that he will not lose any of those for whom he died!
[SIZE=+2]I[/SIZE]

Irresistible Grace

The result of God's Irresistible Grace is the certain response by the elect to the inward call of the Holy Spirit, when the outward call is given by the evangelist or minister of the Word of God. Christ, himself, teaches that all whom God has elected will come to a knowledge of him (John 6:37). Men come to Christ in salvation when the Father calls them (John 6:44), and the very Spirit of God leads God's beloved to repentance (Romans 8:14). What a comfort it is to know that the gospel of Christ will penetrate our hard, sinful hearts and wondrously save us through the gracious inward call of the Holy Spirit (I Peter 5:10)!
[SIZE=+2]P[/SIZE]

Perseverance of the Saints

Perseverance of the Saints is a doctrine which states that the saints (those whom God has saved) will remain in God's hand until they are glorified and brought to abide with him in heaven. Romans 8:28-39 makes it clear that when a person truly has been regenerated by God, he will remain in God's stead. The work of sanctification which God has brought about in his elect will continue until it reaches its fulfillment in eternal life (Phil. 1:6). Christ assures the elect that he will not lose them and that they will be glorified at the "last day" (John 6:39). The Calvinist stands upon the Word of God and trusts in Christ's promise that he will perfectly fulfill the will of the Father in saving all the elect.
http://www.reformed.org/calvinism/index.html


===================================


This will start you on your way. If you understand the above, you understand the ANSWER to your question.


SOLI DEO GLORIA.

 

[Oneofthediaspora]

St. Paul, St Augustine and Martin Luther may have understood the five tenets of Calvinism (although as the first lived centuries before Calvin it's somewhat difficult to know what you mean by that). Their writings show that they certainly would have not agreed with them, however.
Luther, who is the only one who was a contemporary of John Calvin, did not believe in limited atonement.
In fact the only people who accept the five tenets are Calvinists.
It is disingenuous to appeal to the authority of those who disagree.

 

[cantata]

A pat on the back and a sticky bun
I wouldn't get too hung up on what a person deserves. It would be a pretty horrible life if we only ever got what we deserved now wouldn't it?

I take it that what you are saying (amongst other things) is that if/when you experience God you are unlikely to say "Hold on! This can not be true because I have made my mind up on this one; so go away and leave me alone."
I would suggest that each time you employ your ability to reason you are having an experience of God; but that will need another thread.
Be patient and keep an open heart/mind.

To be patient would require me to be waiting for something. From the point of view of an unbeliever, there is little point in waiting around for a non-existent God to show up.

However, thank you; I appreciate your approach and your politeness, and your refreshing abstention from proclaiming my eternal damnation.

I wonder how much Purgatory is about educating us as it is about cleansing us?

I hope it's more about the former, myself. If there really are absolute moral values, then simply knowing about them and understanding them will allow one to cleanse oneself.

 

[paug]

Ok, first of all, I'd like to politely ask PastorJim to dismiss himself from this discussion. I don't consider myself an "idiot atheist" (which you suggested indirectly), nor do I consider this a "stupid question", nor do I enjoy being led through an obstacle course designed just to iron out some trivial semantics.

No, the only thing I knew about his question was that he was deliberately misrepresenting what Christianity teaches in order to paint Christianity in a bad light.

I was doing no such thing.

Like I said foreknowledge dosen't affect our free will. If he knew paug would end up in hell he knew it was because of Paugs choices. Not creating Paug just for this fact would conflict with justice and the equal opprotunity of all of the other human beings.

Again, this is missing the point - given that God is omnipotent, given that I am a creation of God, and given that I am an atheist who will not be saved/accepted/[insert correct jargon] and will thus go to hell, God will have created me knowing that I will ultimately go to Hell. He will always have known this.

If God chose to intervene then we would essentiually be puppets on strings that God pulls and become robots with not being able to choose.

This opens up a Pandora's box of problems - like Washington pointed out.

And going waaay back:

If I knew you wouldn't budge off the train tracks no matter how hard I pushed, but I kept telling you about the train coming, would your death still be on my hands when the train came and killed you?

I find this analogy quite inaccurate. This isn't a case of "told ya so". This is a case of you giving birth to me, roping me to the train tracks and watching as the train strikes me.

And ShieldOfFaith, thanks for those tenets you posted. I read them thru but didn't grasp them 100 % wrt the problem at hand - i'll have to look into them a bit more.

 

[HumbleServant94]

So... if those who don't accept Jesus as their Savior go to Hell, then why doesn't God just kill off the atheists? Why does he let them live only to be tortured in the flames of Hell for all eternity?

E.g. surely God always knew that I would become an atheist, he always knew I wouldn't accept the teachings of Jesus Christ nor the Scripture, so why allow me to live only to cast me into the fiery pits of Hell? Doesn't sound awfully benevolent to me.

And what about the arbitrary tribe in sub-saharan Africa, the Mwujambu. They give birth to a baby boy, but this boy nor his family have never heard of Christianity or the Trinity and all that. So then the baby boy dies of malaria/whatever and then finds himself at the gates of Hell.

"Oh, sorry little boy, the missionaries weren't due to visit your tribe in another 4 months. Sorry, but in you go!"

God doesn't kill off the atheists because He wants the atheists to come to Him.

 

[Washington]

Did you read the rest of my post BTW?

From beginning to end.

You will be given a choice ultimately.

I assume this is after I die, and am, what, sitting in purgatory where to my right I can see the golden steps ascending to heaven and to my left the fires of hell? Gee, can I have a minute here please. This is a toughy.

Suspend your disbelief for a second for the purposes of a thought experiment.
Imagine God exists. He wants you to conform of your own volition and free will to be what He wants you to be.

Whoa! there a minute. Exactly what is this desire of god that I have a free will "to be what He wants [me] to be"? What kind of free will is that? Evidently you think that free will involves acceding to god's desires. Sorry, but that's not a definition of free will I've ever seen.

Would you be willing to do this even though it will involve psychic pain and suffering and leaving aside much of the illusion that you regard as yourself?

What illusion is that? If I buy into your claim that your god exists I assume I would already be pretty much like you: a believing Christian. Therefore your premise automatically changes the whole landscape of my belief, and your subsequent questions become moot.

What happens to the honest disbeliever?

See cantata's answer in post # 133 and her post to your reply in # 135

 

[BreadAlone]

Whoa! there a minute. Exactly what is this desire of god that I have a free will "to be what He wants [me] to be"? What kind of free will is that? Evidently you think that free will involves acceding to god's desires. Sorry, but that's not a definition of free will I've ever seen.

I apologize for stepping into your conversation here, but I feel compelled to comment, because this is where many Christians slip up. You DON'T have a free will. Humanity cannot make a conscious decision to do what God wants. We are NATURALLY God's enemies, and slaves to sin. We cannot help but sin.

The glory of the Gospel, and the core message of Christianity, is that we are saved by the faith God gives us; not the faith that we choose. Whenever the Gospel is preached to an unsaved heart, the Holy Spirit begins His Sanctifying work; it is at this point that a person may reject the Spirit, and that of their own choosing, because they WERE given the opportunity.

Hell is separation from God. Frankly, it is what unbelievers WANT. They were given an opportunity to come to a knowledge of the Truth (whether by natural knowledge, and that is another topic all together, or by gospel message.) and rejected it. They wanted to remain in sin and not be with God eternally. God doesn't FORCE anyone to be with Him or to love Him. If they WANT to spend eternity apart from Him, He will let them go to Hell. But this was not something that He wanted or desires.