On atheists and Hell...

[MaxP]

In response to the OP, God does not cast you into Hell. We, by our own choices, end up there. To not allow people who will end up in Hell to exist would be a violation of God-given free will.
Free will entails the ability to to be wrong.

 

[TheBear]

We, by our own choices, end up there.

When we make choices in life, we make those choices based on all the available information, and try to make informed decisions. If one doesn't have enough information to make such a monumental choice, what kind of a choice is it? Is it a choice at all?

 

[MaxP]

When we make choices in life, we make those choices based on all the available information, and try to make informed decisions. If one doesn't have enough information to make such a monumental choice, what kind of a choice is it? Is it a choice at all?

The truth is readily available to anyone who wishes to be able to be informed.

 

[KCKID]

For the umpteenth time. You're all 'debating' nothing. Hell is the grave. Nothing more.

*Sigh* Carry on.

 

[Washington]

The truth is readily available to anyone who wishes to be able to be informed.

And what of those to whom the wish does not materialize? Is it their fault no one has convinced them to wish "to be able to be informed"?

 

[MaxP]

And what of those to whom the wish does not materialize? Is it their fault no one has convinced them to wish "to be able to wish"?

If I do not wish to make informed decision on my salvation, I will not.
My soul is principally my duty. As for atheists, they have rejected Christ and made their decision. If they do not accept Christ, it is their decision. We can only make the truth available to them, and attempt to inform them. It is up to them to listen or not.

 

[KCKID]

If I do not wish to make informed decision on my salvation, I will not.
My soul is principally my duty. As for atheists, they have rejected Christ and made their decision. If they do not accept Christ, it is their decision. We can only make the truth available to them, and attempt to inform them. It is up to them to listen or not.

Well, I've all but given up trying to get through to folks that hell is NOT a geographical place at all but a 'state' ...actually the state of being dead, the grave. NO one will be eternally tormented in a literal sense.

So, since most appear to be 'okay' or quite casual with the traditional but erroneous concept of hell ...I will ask the poster above what does it mean, precisely, for one to accept Christ? Christians bandy this catch-cry with regular monotony and I believe that most have not a clue what it means. What does it mean 'to accept Christ'? Over to you, MaxP.

 

[MaxP]

Well, I've all but given up trying to get through to folks that hell is NOT a geographical place at all but a 'state' ...actually the state of being dead, the grave. NO one will be eternally tormented in a literal sense.

So, since most appear to be 'okay' or quite casual with the traditional but erroneous concept of hell ...I will ask the poster above what does it mean, precisely, for one to accept Christ? Christians bandy this catch-cry with regular monotony and I believe that most have not a clue what it means. What does it mean 'to accept Christ'? Over to you, MaxP.

Being Baptized, whether it be by water, desire, or blood.
Although water is required if you are at all able to receive it.

 

[SiderealExalt]

No, he creates everyone with the same ability to have freedom and free will. Everyone could repent and chose Christ if they truly wanted to.

Someone pointing a gun to my head and saying well ok I wont shoot you if you accept the Detroit Lions as the best football team ever and that this idea will make you blissful for the rest of the life, that doesn't exactly inspire me to think that person is a very good person.

Punishing people for eternity for thoughtcrimes does not point towards a benevolent or worthy deity.

T

he things of God confound the wise. You have no standard for truth you cannot claim what truly are myths and what is not.

Christians routinely decide what the "things of God" are, and what constitutes proper interpretation of those things and the proper application of them. In fact you all have been doing that for centuries, much to the detriment of mankind.

People are quite capable of discerning fact from myth. Vague ego stroking platitutes don't change that.

that really all depends. Christ said he would not come back until the gospel was preahced to all the nations and all the ends of the earth. Jesus Christ did preach to the spirits in prison who had died during the BC times as it shows in the epistle of Peter. So those who did not hear the Gospel had the opprotunity to.

See my first reply. Retroactively blaming it on the victims is even more dispicable.

Well, I've all but given up trying to get through to folks that hell is NOT a geographical place at all but a 'state' ...actually the state of being dead, the grave. NO one will be eternally tormented in a literal sense.

A much more recent reinterpretation of the Bible that I feel has it's roots in PC I'm ok you're ok liberal Christianity. The Bible has some vivid imagery of the tortures of hell.

 

[Washington]

If I do not wish to make informed decision on my salvation, I will not.
My soul is principally my duty.

I have absolutely no idea what you're trying to convey here.

As for atheists, they have rejected Christ and made their decision. If they do not accept Christ, it is their decision. We can only make the truth available to them, and attempt to inform them. It is up to them to listen or not.

And suppose you're very lousy informers? Your recitation of the truth comes across like a comic book---entertaining but void of meaningful substance. Is that their fault? You seem to believe that all you have to do is lay out the food and the dogs will come running, and if they don't they deserve to starve. Well, some food is so poorly made and served up it looks and smells more like garbage than a nutritional meal. What may convince you may not convince the other guy, a situation we are all familiar with in hung juries.

And this is one of the notions of Christianity that really stands out as an odorous conceit. "Because I see the truth you must be able to see the truth, and if you don't it's all your fault, for which you must suffer." Well, considering your expectations here the following probably comes as a surprise: We are not all created alike, nor do we grow up alike. Personally, I'm continually amazed how readily people embrace whatever belief makes them them feel good despite its basic ridiculousness. But on the same hand I realize what's going on: they are not the same person I am, so I have no expectations they should react as I do. The big difference here is that I don't feel it reasonable they be punished because they don't see things as I do. Christians do: "If you don't give yourself up to Christ because you remain unconvinced you should, then it's reasonable that you go to hell." Or suffer some such undesirable fate.

 

[SiderealExalt]

I

f I do not wish to make informed decision on my salvation, I will not.
My soul is principally my duty. As for atheists, they have rejected Christ and made their decision. If they do not accept Christ, it is their decision. We can only make the truth available to them, and attempt to inform them. It is up to them to listen or not.

My heart goes out to all those poor poor Christians who be subjected to all the horrible fates waiting them in the afterlives of all the religions they reject. /sarcasm.

 

[Freodin]

I don´t accept that God/Jesus even prepares a place of eternal torture that people "chose" to go.... have I rejected Jesus?
I don´t believe that the Bible talks about a state of non-existence / "death" when it mentions Hell.... have I now rejected Jesus?
I don´t believe that Jesus is God, that he wants / wanted anything from me personally, that God even exists... but if he does, he is free to do whatever he wants to "save" me... does that mean I rejected Jesus?

I don´t believe that the 1.FCN will win the German Soccer Championship this year... does that mean I reject them?

 

[MaxP]

And suppose you're very lousy informers? Your recitation of the truth comes across like a comic book---entertaining but void of meaningful substance. Is that their fault? You seem to believe that all you have to do is lay out the food and the dogs will come running, and if they don't they deserve to starve. Well, some food is so poorly made and served up it looks and smells more like garbage than a nutritional meal. What may convince you may not convince the other guy, a situation we are all familiar with in hung juries.

Ofttimes it can be our own poor attempts at evangelism that lead others astray.
If you want a comprehensive set of Christian beliefs, check the Vatican web site, vatican.va

And this is one of the notions of Christianity that really stands out as an odorous conceit. "Because I see the truth you must be able to see the truth, and if you don't it's all your fault, for which you must suffer." Well, considering your expectations here the following probably comes as a surprise: We are not all created alike, nor do we grow up alike. Personally, I'm continually amazed how readily people embrace whatever belief makes them them feel good despite its basic ridiculousness. But on the same hand I realize what's going on: they are not the same person I am, so I have no expectations they should react as I do. The big difference here is that I don't feel it reasonable they be punished because they don't see things as I do. Christians do: "If you don't give yourself up to Christ because you remain unconvinced you should, then it's reasonable that you go to hell." Or suffer some such undesirable fate.

The argument is not about opinion, but fact.
God is infinitely merciful and asks little. He will accept the worst sinners. No one has to be in Hell, but they themselves choose not to believe the truth.
Is it partially our fault? Yes, we fail our duty every time a soul ends up in Hell.
If you investigated, I'm sure you'd find Catholicism(or just basic tenants of Christianity) not to be a poorly prepared meal.

 

[MaxP]

I don´t accept that God/Jesus even prepares a place of eternal torture that people "chose" to go.... have I rejected Jesus?

No, but you're in some danger.

I don´t believe that the Bible talks about a state of non-existence / "death" when it mentions Hell.... have I now rejected Jesus?

No, thats not a fact at all.

I don´t believe that Jesus is God, that he wants / wanted anything from me personally, that God even exists... but if he does, he is free to do whatever he wants to "save" me... does that mean I rejected Jesus?

Yes. God will not force you to convert. To do so would be contrary to free will.

I don´t believe that the 1.FCN will win the German Soccer Championship this year... does that mean I reject them?

You don't reject their existence or truth. No.

 

[SiderealExalt]

The argument is not about opinion, but fact.
God is infinitely merciful and asks little. He will accept the worst sinners. No one has to be in Hell, but they themselves choose not to believe the truth.
Is it partially our fault? Yes, we fail our duty every time a soul ends up in Hell.
If you investigated, I'm sure you'd find Catholicism(or just basic tenants of Christianity) not to be a poorly prepared meal.

In consideration of the portrayal of this figure as the Bible, which is supposed to be the divinely inspired words of said deity, then it falls woefully short of reaching a sane definition of infinite mercy and good that in any way and shape resembles what we understand the definitions of mercy to be.

 

[morningstar2651]

Ofttimes it can be our own poor attempts at evangelism that lead others astray.
If you want a comprehensive set of Christian beliefs, check the Vatican web site, vatican.va


The argument is not about opinion, but fact.
God is infinitely merciful and asks little. He will accept the worst sinners. No one has to be in Hell, but they themselves choose not to believe the truth.
Is it partially our fault? Yes, we fail our duty every time a soul ends up in Hell.
If you investigated, I'm sure you'd find Catholicism(or just basic tenants of Christianity) not to be a poorly prepared meal.

I don't pick & choose what I believe. Do you?

If it doesn't make sense to me, then I can't honestly believe it.

Now I'll give you something to believe. I'm just one hundred and one, five months and a day.' `I can't believe that!' said Alice.
`Can't you?' the Queen said in a pitying tone. `Try again: draw a long breath, and shut your eyes.'
Alice laughed. `There's no use trying,' she said `one can't believe impossible things.'
`I daresay you haven't had much practice,' said the Queen. `When I was your age, I always did it for half-an-hour a day. Why, sometimes I've believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast.

 

[Washington]

The argument is not about opinion, but fact.

?????

No one has to be in Hell, but they themselves choose not to believe the truth.

But first that truth, or any truth, has to be conveyed. If it isn't then there is no chance of informed choosing, which is the only kind of choice that deserves judgment. You don't properly inform me of the truth so why should I suffer for your failing? Which, actually, is what the whole rejection of Christianity comes down to: the failure of Christians to do their job. But instead of properly putting the fault where it belongs they naturally blame the other guy. Not an unusual reaction, but hardly just.

Is it partially our fault? Yes, we fail our duty every time a soul ends up in Hell.

Partially? Exactly what do you expect the unbeliever to bring to the table? He has only the tools he has. No more no less. If they are inadequate what should he have done? And why should he be convinced by any claim he should change his tools?

If you investigated, I'm sure you'd find Catholicism(or just basic tenants of Christianity) not to be a poorly prepared meal.

I find it somewhat amusing that you assume I haven't. I have. But again your remark is typical and points up what I said in my previous post. Christians continually expect others to be convinced by what convinces them. It's the hung jury thing, MaxP.

 

[cantata]

Because the key concept of my posting was the spelling.

Just thought I'd help you not to make the same mistake again.

 

[cantata]

Why would an unbeliever decide to accept Christ?

 

[BreadAlone]

Why would an unbeliever decide to accept Christ?

An unbeliever cannot accept Christ. Faith comes from the Spirit, not human choice.