Omniscience causal

[BigCedar]

To be honest, I am getting a bit tired of repeating that this is not my claim.
I am merely pointing out that foreknowledge of an action clearly indicates that the action is not one of choice. I am not saying that the foreknower is the determining agent.

Sure not, but it would mean that these actions won´t be choices of the actors. And that´s all I am saying.

So free will is impossible in a reality in which any entity possesses foreknowledge of actions?

If free will exsisted would it collapse at the introduction of an entity possessing foreknowledge?

 

[Lilly of the Valley]

No infact he in the same boat as everyone else. He can't have freewill since with him all knowing proving that it never existed, which means His will is also not free since all freewill doesn't exist. And its worst for him since even if he wants to change what will happen he can't because he knows he won't.

So God isn't all powerful?

 

[Natro]

So God isn't all powerful?

he could have all the power but all the power in the world isn't going to stop what he knows going to happen from happening since he can not will it to change since his want to change it would also be determined. Everythings already set out. Nothing can change it.

 

[Lilly of the Valley]

he could have all the power but all the power in the world isn't going to stop what he knows going to happen from happening since he can not will it to change since his want to change it would also be determined. Everythings already set out. Nothing can change it.

God is in control. He can and will do whatever He wants, the only thing that will stop Him is His own self. You are basically saying, that we are just robots doing predetermined actions w/o choices and God isn't even free and thus not all powerful eventhough He created all we have anyway!

 

[Danhalen]

See, that's the thing, Just because God knows doesn't mean we aren't choosing. You know this because he wants all to be saved, He said it...but not all will...so there is choice in there even though He knows. He knew Adam and Eve would sin, did they not choose sin? No, they did, eventhough God wanted them to obey and foreknew.

Lilly, please show me - logically - how it is possible to make a choice when the outcome of the choice is known by an omniscient being. If there is only one possible outcome how can there be a choice?

Please show me how this logically works.

 

[ImmortalTechnique]

it just goes to show how illogical the whole idea of god is- if god knows everything, then god knows every action that GOD will take as well, and cannot change that or . god has no free will either

 

[Lilly of the Valley]

Lilly, please show me - logically - how it is possible to make a choice when the outcome of the choice is known by an omniscient being. If there is only one possible outcome how can there be a choice?

Please show me how this logically works.

God merely knows what you are going to do it's not like a laid out pattern that you follow, but you make the choices and they are choices that God just knows. It's hard to explain. But also, God wants you to do something. Now lets say you willfully disobeyed. You had the choice to obey, but you chose not to. God knew this, but you still had the choice to obey, or else He wouldn't have even made you have the choice or told you what He wanted.

 

[BigCedar]

God is in control. He can and will do whatever He wants, the only thing that will stop Him is His own self. You are basically saying, that we are just robots doing predetermined actions w/o choices and God isn't even free and thus not all powerful eventhough He created all we have anyway!

Lilly,
Back to the cake and pie example.
God has the knowledge you will choose cake.
Does the possibilty that you will choose pie exist?

You only think you had a choice.

 

[quatona]

So free will is impossible in a reality in which any entity possesses foreknowledge of actions?

Yes, that seems to be an accurate description of the position I have been trying to express here all the time. Whilst the focus is not on the foreknowing entity, but on the fact that the actions are foreknown. It might be worth remembering, though, that we are talking about everything being perfectly foreknown.

If free will exsisted would it collapse at the introduction of an entity possessing foreknowledge?

Yes, in the same way in which any hypothetical assumption would collapse if an idea is introduced that is incompatible with it.
Hey, that´s got to be one of the most astute and wittiest ways of begging the question that I have seen in a long time!
It´s more like the introduction of these hypotheticals is mutually exclusive. If "choice" existed a perfectly foreknowing entity cannot be introduced. If a foreknowing entity existed, choice cannot be introduced.
That´s the very nature of logical contradictions: Two assumptions cannot coexist.
Choice does not cease to exist at the introduction of the fact that actions are foreknown, it would be demonstrated to never have existed. Your wording implies the assertion of a causal connection, where none is claimed.

Noticing that the road is dry does not make the rain go away. It merely indicates that it isn´t raining.

 

[Natro]

God is in control. He can and will do whatever He wants, the only thing that will stop Him is His own self. You are basically saying, that we are just robots doing predetermined actions w/o choices and God isn't even free and thus not all powerful eventhough He created all we have anyway!

Look if God knows everything 100% that proves all actions are set out. God will only do what he knows he will do and since God had all his properties from the begining since he does not change that means God is everywhere and has always existed. That means Everywhere has always existed. God also Knows Everything 100%. Which means everything is already set and has always existed. SO there was no befor time where everything did not exist yet for God to change what everything might be.

 

[Natro]

So free will is impossible in a reality in which any entity possesses foreknowledge of actions?

If free will exsisted would it collapse at the introduction of an entity possessing foreknowledge?

No Freewill never existed in the first place in a reality where it is possible to know everything 100% completely.

The introduction of a entity possessing 100% knowledge of everything would not destroy freewill, it would prove freewill never existed. Just like if I find a human skeleton on the moon that dates back 1000000 years would do a heck of alot of damage to alot of scietific theorys.

 

[BigCedar]

Yes, that seems to be an accurate description of the position I have been trying to express here all the time. Whilst the focus is not on the foreknowing entity, but on the fact that the actions are foreknown. It might be worth remembering, though, that we are talking about everything being perfectly foreknown.


Yes, in the same way in which any hypothetical assumption would collapse if an idea is introduced that is incompatible with it.
Hey, that´s got to be one of the most astute and wittiest ways of begging the question that I have seen in a long time!
It´s more like the introduction of these hypotheticals is mutually exclusive. If "choice" existed a perfectly foreknowing entity cannot be introduced. If a foreknowing entity existed, choice cannot be introduced.
That´s the very nature of logical contradictions: Two assumptions cannot coexist.
Choice does not cease to exist at the introduction of the fact that actions are foreknown, it would be demonstrated to never have existed. Your wording implies the assertion of a causal connection, where none is claimed.

Noticing that the road is dry does not make the rain go away. It merely indicates that it isn´t raining.

I understand. You cleared up a loophole my mind had formed. I hadn't considered how even possibility of perfect foreknowledge cancelled free will.
When I see people arguing against something that sounds so obviously logical (the OP) I try hard to find the perspective they are seeing things from.
This does not forgive the fact that I led myself to a dumb mistake in logic. Thank you for the correction.

 

[quatona]

This does not forgive the fact that I led myself to a dumb mistake in logic. Thank you for the correction.

Ah, BigCedar, there is nothing to forgive. Aren´t we here to learn together, and help each other clear our thoughts?
I sometimes feel so lost with all those hypotheticals that pretend to transcend the realm of our human comprehension and at the same time apply just this human understanding (and use words that wouldn´t even have a meaning in such a hypothetical realm) in order to explain it. Futile mind games, that actually have no meaning at all, but can be fun to take part in. Good exercise, too. Just don´t take it too seriously.
Greetings
quatona

 

[Danhalen]

God merely knows what you are going to do it's not like a laid out pattern that you follow, but you make the choices and they are choices that God just knows.

I have choices to make. Let's call them X, Y and Z. If God is omniscient - like you claim - and God knows I am going to choose X, is it possible for me to choose Y or Z? Keep in mind this is before I choose anything.

It's hard to explain.

It is actually quite easy - you just can't use logic to do it.

But also, God wants you to do something. Now lets say you willfully disobeyed. You had the choice to obey, but you chose not to. God knew this, but you still had the choice to obey, or else He wouldn't have even made you have the choice or told you what He wanted.

If God knows I will disobey - before I disobey - is it posible for me to obey instead?

 

[Lilly of the Valley]

I have choices to make. Let's call them X, Y and Z. If God is omniscient - like you claim - and God knows I am going to choose X, is it possible for me to choose Y or Z? Keep in mind this is before I choose anything.
It is actually quite easy - you just can't use logic to do it.
If God knows I will disobey - before I disobey - is it posible for me to obey instead?

Yes it is...now let me tell you why/how. God only knows it, but you chose X and God just knows that. It's not like it is pre planned for you, God just knows your actions based on how you are. It's like someone who always orders the same thing. The cook ends up knowing what they will order, but not because it is preset, but because of the person themself. The person has the options and can choose anything, but the cook just knows it will be the one particular item.

 

[Danhalen]

Yes it is...now let me tell you why/how. God only knows it, but you chose X and God just knows that. It's not like it is pre planned for you, God just knows your actions based on how you are. It's like someone who always orders the same thing. The cook ends up knowing what they will order, but not because it is preset, but because of the person themself. The person has the options and can choose anything, but the cook just knows it will be the one particular item.

So, really, God is just a good guesser. He doesn't know what we're going to do, he just makes an educated guess based on past choices. So, does it take a while for God to figure out how babies will react? Do you really mean to say God is not omniscient?

 

[Natro]

Yes it is...now let me tell you why/how. God only knows it, but you chose X and God just knows that. It's not like it is pre planned for you, God just knows your actions based on how you are. It's like someone who always orders the same thing. The cook ends up knowing what they will order, but not because it is preset, but because of the person themself. The person has the options and can choose anything, but the cook just knows it will be the one particular item.

So are you saying God doesn't know everything 100% he just knows everything that is happening 100% and on that can guess realy realy well at future events?

 

[Phinehas]

Regarding " Foreknown ≠ foredone."
Just because it is known that someone will do something, doesn't mean that it has already been done outside of that individual's own will.

But it does mean that it had been determined that the person will do.

Nope. You're still confusing known to be done and made(in the connotation of forced) to be done (or determined). The key to realizing the concept of free will is to take into account a factor you might not believe in, the soul, which, in turn, allows us to have free will. If we were merely the physical (and physically determined- i.e. thoughts the predictable conglomeration of mere electronic and chemical impulses you consider today) you would be right. But, if there is a soul that exists, then free will can exist as well. Realize that according to Christianity, as well as others, there is a part of humanity that is beyond the mere physical or possibly physically predictive workings of man. If man were merely made up of the physical that we know about then the statement you made might be an accurate statement. However, the predictability that you assign to the physical realm is only a partial understanding of the universe, lacking in many recent concepts and discoveries of the universe as we know it. On the quantum scale specifically, (which is where I believe certain "spiritual" elements reside), according to the Heisenberg uncertainty(or indeterminacy) principal, your deterministic outlook fails completely.

The continuance of this disertation will be found in the answer to the next statement. You could, if you like, actually skip the next quoted section and go directly to the rest. But it's good to check it out, for kicks at least.

I am not claiming it does mean it has been done or is done outside of a person's will. I am claiming if there is only one known possible outcome to any given set of circumstances then there is no choice but to do what is known. If there is no choice there is no "free" will.

"If there is only one known possible outcome..."
According to quantum physics there isn't one known possible outcome or only one outcome possible. There is one known actual outcome (which we measure from within time... i.e., such and such has happened). Of course we can still speculate on what outcomes could have possibly happened. God, on the other hand, sees and knows everything. As far as the possibilities go, God not only knows all possible outcomes but also knows which actual outcome "will" occur from the infinite possibilities available. I say "will" occur because this is seen by a God outside of time, or in an atemporal manner. Hard for temporal beings to conceptualize, I know.

The point that you are trying to make is that the knowledge of what will happen eliminates what could possibly happen. Whereas I beg to differ. When we speculate on the myriad scenarios of what could have possibly happened in the past we do this in the knowledge of what has, for us, already happened. This, in and of itself, shows that the mere knowledge of what happens doesn't automatically dictate the impossibility of other occurrences that could have possibly happened, it merely dictates the impossibility of the other occurrences having actually happened. This concept exists regardless of time. (Now, to further the point, possibly to the absurd, there's a physicist (quantum) by the name of Richard Feyman that proposed that not only do different possibilities exist, but that they actually happen. This is where you get the concept for the show "Sliders". Personally, even though a big fan of "Sliders", I believe that the actually happening part is purely hypothetical. I don't believe that it all actually happens, but, believe it or not, it's an accurate way of finding the more probable outcomes. As far as actual evidence that everything happens and there are limitless universes of the differences, that would be zero.)

Now that we've seen that mere knowledge of what will happen doesn't dictate that there are no other possible outcomes (just no other actual outcomes), how does the fact that God made everything to begin with work with Him knowing what would happen, i.e. "causing it all"?

(To let you know, the analogy that I'm about to use isn't meant to be an exact analogy, just a logical stepping stone.)

Man makes a computer that is programmed to accept input and calculate outcome, much like God created man to do.

We make programs that it can interpret and thereby provide us with much entertainment by way of video games. when you're playing that first person shooter, there's a vast list of variables that the computer figures out that dictate color, position, damage, etcetera. These actual decisions are made separately and solely by the computer independent of the programmer. Yes, it was programmed to interact with the information in this manner, but it is the one interacting with the input, not the programmer. There are scenarios in the first person shooter realm (for instance) that have never happened. Hopefully (and usually), the computer will interpret this information the way it's been programmed to do, but it currently has the ability to, and does, this independently of, or apart from the programmer. Is the computer reliant on the programming originally given? Yes. You're very smart, but let me finish.

God made Man as a computer that is programmed (by way of DNA to name one of the obvious), and is able to program itself and can interpret, or choose not to interpret certain information. So, not only are we reliant on the programming we received from Him, but we are also reliant on the programming we receive from ourselves. This is why we are self aware, and this is why we are responsible for our own actions and thoughts. And this is ultimately why we are responsible for our own decisions concerning salvation.

You say, "yes but not everyone has the same knowledge of God." True, not everyone has it, but most start out with the same amount and the same capability to obtain it.

For those litterally unable to attain it, "...unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required..." Luke 12:48
This implies that unto whom little is given, little is required. Those mentally or physically incapable of having heard, little is required of them.

Anyone who has read this and, not who understands, but who is able to understand it and chooses not to, will be held accountable for it.

Peace out.

 

[Natro]

Regarding " Foreknown ≠ foredone."
Just because it is known that someone will do something, doesn't mean that it has already been done outside of that individual's own will.


Nope. You're still confusing known to be done and made(in the connotation of forced) to be done (or determined). The key to realizing the concept of free will is to take into account a factor you might not believe in, the soul, which, in turn, allows us to have free will. If we were merely the physical (and physically determined- i.e. thoughts the predictable conglomeration of mere electronic and chemical impulses you consider today) you would be right. But, if there is a soul that exists, then free will can exist as well. Realize that according to Christianity, as well as others, there is a part of humanity that is beyond the mere physical or possibly physically predictive workings of man. If man were merely made up of the physical that we know about then the statement you made might be an accurate statement. However, the predictability that you assign to the physical realm is only a partial understanding of the universe, lacking in many recent concepts and discoveries of the universe as we know it. On the quantum scale specifically, (which is where I believe certain "spiritual" elements reside), according to the Heisenberg uncertainty(or indeterminacy) principal, your deterministic outlook fails completely.

The continuance of this disertation will be found in the answer to the next statement. You could, if you like, actually skip the next quoted section and go directly to the rest. But it's good to check it out, for kicks at least.

So are you saying God only knows what will physicly happen not spirtualty happening?

"If there is only one known possible outcome..."
According to quantum physics there isn't one known possible outcome or only one outcome possible. There is one known actual outcome (which we measure from within time... i.e., such and such has happened). Of course we can still speculate on what outcomes could have possibly happened. God, on the other hand sees and knows everything. As far as the possibilities go, God not only knows all possible outcomes but also knows which actual outcome "will" occur from the infinite possibilities available. I say "will" occur because this is seen by a God outside of time, or in an atemporal manner. Hard for temporal beings to conceptualize, I know.

The point that you are trying to make is that the knowledge of what will happen eliminates what could possibly happen. Whereas I beg to differ. When we speculate on the myriad scenarios of what could have possibly happened in the past we do this in the knowledge of what has, for us, has already happened. This, in and of itself, shows that the mere knowledge of what happens doesn't automatically dictate the impossibility of other occurrences that could have possibly happened, it merely dictates the impossibility of the other occurrences having actually happened. This concept exists regardless of time. (Now, to further the point, possibly to the absurd, there's a physicist (quantum) by the name of Richard Feyman that proposed that not only do different possibilities exist, but that they actually happen. This is where you get the concept for the show "Sliders". Personally, even though a big fan of "Sliders", I believe that the actually happening part is purely hypothetical. I don't believe that it all actually happens, but, believe it or not, it's an accurate way of finding the more probable outcomes. As far as actual evidence that everything happens and there are limitless universes of the differences, that would be zero.)

Now that we've seen that mere knowledge of what will happen doesn't dictate that there are no other possible outcomes, how does the fact that God made everything to begin with work with Him knowing what would happen, i.e. "causing it all"?

(To let you know, the analogy that I'm about to use isn't meant to be an exact analogy, just a logical stepping stone.)

Man makes a computer that is programmed to accept input and calculate outcome, much like God created man to do.

We make programs that it can interpret and thereby provide us with much entertainment by way of video games. when you're playing that first person shooter, there's a vast list of variables that the computer figures out that dictate color, position, damage, etcetera. These actual decisions are made separately and solely by the computer independent of the programmer. Yes, it was programmed to interact with the information in this manner, but it is the one interacting with the input, not the programmer. There are scenarios in the first person shooter realm (for instance) that have never happened. Hopefully (and usually), the computer will interpret this information the way it's been programmed to do, but it currently has the ability to, and does, this independently of, or apart from the programmer. Is the computer reliant on the programming originally given? Yes. You're very smart, but let me finish.

God made Man as a computer that is programmed (by way of DNA to name one of the obvious), and is able to program itself and can interpret, or choose not to interpret certain information. So, not only are we reliant on the programming we received from Him, but we are also reliant on the programming we receive from ourselves. This is why we are self aware, and this is why we are responsible for our own actions and thoughts. And this is ultimately why we are responsible for our own decisions concerning salvation.

You say, "yes but not everyone has the same knowledge of God." True, not everyone has it, but most start out with the same amount and the same capability to obtain it.

For those litterally unable to attain it, "...unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required..." Luke 12:48
This implies that unto whom little is given, little is required. Those mentally or physically incapable of having heard, little is required of them.

Anyone who has read this and, not who understands, but who is able to understand it and chooses not to, will be held accountable for it.

Peace out.

Are you saying God doesn't know what happens on the quantum level? and only sees Probabilitys? So your God rolls dice? And is not all knowing?

 

[Phinehas]

So are you saying God only knows what will physicly happen not spirtualty happening?

Nope. God knows everything. The physical and the "spiritual" all reside in reality.

Are you saying God doesn't know what happens on the quantum level? and only sees Probabilitys? So your God rolls dice? And is not all knowing?

Nope. What I'm saying is that even people apart from God, know, and can prove, that the purely deterministic outlook you propose, is wrong.