-
Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.
Omniscience causal
- Thread starter Danhalen
- Start date
quatona said:No, I just took the pie. Whether it was my choice or not is the very point of this discussion.
So, when a leaf is faced w/a decision...it isn´t choosing? For example: The leaf has the choice to remain on the tree or to drop to the ground. It chooses to drop to the ground. Did it not just make a choice?
Leaves don't think and make decisions. An action happens when you make a decision on what you are going to do. An action is the result of mental assent and what you determined to do, thus chose.
If you don't chose anything, then everything you do you just do and nothing on your part is involved but you just doing it, which isn't how it is. You make decisions/choices everyday and they aren't just actions due to what I said in the 1st paragraph.
Upvote
0
That´s an ok definition. The question, however, is whether I can determine something that has already be determined.Lilly of the Valley said:
You say it isn´t, I say it is. I provided an argumentation, you - instead of refuting it - merely reaffirmate your opinion.
Well, your argumentation was flawed (in that it merely begged the question) in your 1st paragraph already...
Upvote
0
Whilst humans do think but don´t make decisions (in your scenario of their actions being foreknown). Even what they think would be foreknown, hence not a choice on their part.Lilly of the Valley said:
Upvote
0
quatona said:That´s an ok definition. The question, however, is whether I can determine something that has already be determined.
You say it isn´t, I say it is. I provided an argumentation, you - instead of refuting it - merely reaffirmate your opinion.
Well, your argumentation was flawed (in that it merely begged the question) in your 1st paragraph already...
Okay, what is already determined is due to yourself and/or up to you. That's the best way to really explain it that I can think of at the moment.
Upvote
0
Yes Lilly, this is extremely problematic. It is not logically possible for your God concept to reconcile free will and foreknowledge. If God knows - beforehand - who will be saved and will be damned then there is no choice made by you for either. This is why the Calvinists are a bit more consistent in their theology than most others.Lilly of the Valley said:
Upvote
0
Ok. However, I don´t see how it is an explanation at all. If it is already determined it can not be up to me. Or else the term "determined" makes no sense at all.Lilly of the Valley said:
Upvote
0
If Lilly's position is that God does not will all actions, then he can have foreknowledge of a choice without determining the outcome of that choice. Having foreknowledge of an event does not equal controlling the outcome.quatona said:
If you were given a book that told the outcome of future events it would not mean you personally determined those events.
Upvote
0
To be honest, I am getting a bit tired of repeating that this is not my claim.BigCedar said:
I am merely pointing out that foreknowledge of an action clearly indicates that the action is not one of choice. I am not saying that the foreknower is the determining agent.
Sure not, but it would mean that these actions won´t be choices of the actors. And that´s all I am saying.
Upvote
0
Danhalen said:
See, that's the thing, Just because God knows doesn't mean we aren't choosing. You know this because he wants all to be saved, He said it...but not all will...so there is choice in there even though He knows. He knew Adam and Eve would sin, did they not choose sin? No, they did, eventhough God wanted them to obey and foreknew.
Upvote
0
quatona said:
Perhaps determined is the wrong word. A word that completely is accurate is known. See...you do an action that God knew you would do, but you chose to do that action and that is why God knows it...He knew you'd chose to do that out of other options...
Upvote
0
No your not choosing your acting out what you will do. But this is only if it is possible to know everything 100%. In fact no one needs to know it 100% if it can be known 100% then there is no freewill.Lilly of the Valley said:
Upvote
0
No thought is involved and you think your making a choice but in reality there is only 1 choice and it was set way befor you came into existance, and noone can do anything about it. The fact is that the choice would be a illusion, it may seem real but it is not realy real no matter how real you think it is, because God proved it wasn't ever real. God didn't destroy freewill by knowing 100% what will happen. God proves there was never freewill by knowing 100% what will happen.Lilly of the Valley said:
Upvote
0
No infact he in the same boat as everyone else. He can't have freewill since with him all knowing proving that it never existed, which means His will is also not free since all freewill doesn't exist. And its worst for him since even if he wants to change what will happen he can't because he knows he won't.Lilly of the Valley said:
Upvote
0
Similar threads
