Omniscience causal

[Natro]

Nope. God knows everything. The physical and the "spiritual" all reside in reality.


Nope. What I'm saying is that even people apart from God, know, and can prove, that the purely deterministic outlook you propose, is wrong.

So if he knows all in the physical and spritual then everything in the spirtual and physical is determined(and it is determined because God is outside time so everything was(happesn not a good word) at once for him.

Yeah thats why I believe in freewill but all the stuff that you say we can't know you say God can know thus proving it can be known thus meaning freewill doesn't exist.

 

[Phinehas]

So if he knows all in the physical and spritual then everything in the spirtual and physical is determined(and it is determined because God is outside time so everything was(happesn not a good word) at once for him.

Yeah thats why I believe in freewill but all the stuff that you say we can't know you say God can know thus proving it can be known thus meaning freewill doesn't exist.

I can see you really didn't even try to understand what I wrote previously in post 138, which addresses your statements completely. I believe that you can if you give it some thought and read it again.

(edit) I think you're hung up on the false notion that knowing what will happen eliminates the possiblity of anything else happening, which post 138 addresses.

 

[Natro]

I can see you really didn't even try to understand what I wrote previously in post 138, which addresses your statements completely. I believe that you can if you give it some thought and read it again.

(edit) I think you're hung up on the false notion that knowing what will happen eliminates the possiblity of anything else happening, which post 138 addresses.

Thank you.

Nope. You're still confusing known to be done and made(in the connotation of forced) to be done (or determined).

God is timeless so describing things in past or future tense is a mistake(though its kinda hard to find the words to describe what I am trying to say). No ones saying God is forceing us to do what he knows we will do. I am saying we must do what he knows we will do because that is the way things happen.

The key to realizing the concept of free will is to take into account a factor you might not believe in, the soul, which, in turn, allows us to have free will. If we were merely the physical (and physically determined- i.e. thoughts the predictable conglomeration of mere electronic and chemical impulses you consider today) you would be right.

No I wouldn't because like you say latter in this post you mentioned that the nothing can be really known 100% because of quantum mech. You can only predict realy realy Good. The soul doesn't make a difference.

But, if there is a soul that exists, then free will can exist as well. Realize that according to Christianity, as well as others, there is a part of humanity that is beyond the mere physical or possibly physically predictive workings of man. If man were merely made up of the physical that we know about then the statement you made might be an accurate statement. However, the predictability that you assign to the physical realm is only a partial understanding of the universe, lacking in many recent concepts and discoveries of the universe as we know it. On the quantum scale specifically, (which is where I believe certain "spiritual" elements reside), according to the Heisenberg uncertainty(or indeterminacy) principal, your deterministic outlook fails completely.

You have also said God knows 100% all the spirtual so its in the same boat on every level as the physical. And with Heisenberg.. I agree thats why I believe freewill exist, you on the otherhand say God knows 100% what will happen even on the quantum level, so shoot yourself in the foot even using uncertainty as a defence since you say that nothing is uncertain since God knows it certainly.

The continuance of this disertation will be found in the answer to the next statement. You could, if you like, actually skip the next quoted section and go directly to the rest. But it's good to check it out, for kicks at least.

Indeed.

"If there is only one known possible outcome..."
According to quantum physics there isn't one known possible outcome or only one outcome possible. There is one known actual outcome (which we measure from within time... i.e., such and such has happened). Of course we can still speculate on what outcomes could have possibly happened. God, on the other hand, sees and knows everything. As far as the possibilities go, God not only knows all possible outcomes but also knows which actual outcome "will" occur from the infinite possibilities available. I say "will" occur because this is seen by a God outside of time, or in an atemporal manner. Hard for temporal beings to conceptualize, I know.

You contradict yourself here. You say there isn't one possibility but then you says God knows what will happen. Your making the mistake of confusing illusional possible outcomes with actual possible outcomes, of which there is only 1 the one God knows.

The point that you are trying to make is that the knowledge of what will happen eliminates what could possibly happen.

No the point trying to be made is that the Knowledge of what will happen Proves that only one thing could possibly happen.

Whereas I beg to differ. When we speculate on the myriad scenarios of what could have possibly happened in the past we do this in the knowledge of what has, for us, already happened.

Not realy a good example God does not speculate he Knows.

This, in and of itself, shows that the mere knowledge of what happens doesn't automatically dictate the impossibility of other occurrences that could have possibly happened, it merely dictates the impossibility of the other occurrences having actually happened. This concept exists regardless of time (Now, to further the point, possibly to the absurd, there's a physicist (quantum) by the name of Richard Feyman that proposed that not only do different possibilities exist, but that they actually happen. This is where you get the concept for the show "Sliders". Personally, even though a big fan of "Sliders", I believe that the actually happening part is purely hypothetical. I don't believe that it all actually happens, but, believe it or not, it's an accurate way of finding the more probable outcomes. As far as actual evidence that everything happens and there are limitless universes of the differences, that would be zero.)

Splitting worlds up just means that a infinite amout of worlds exist each in Gods range of knowing and each lacking freewill.

Now that we've seen that mere knowledge of what will happen doesn't dictate that there are no other possible outcomes (just no other actual outcomes), how does the fact that God made everything to begin with work with Him knowing what would happen, i.e. "causing it all"?

Yes but we also have determined that him knowing Proves that what will happen does not have more then one probibility thus is not a choice. You may cause it and God just knows that you will cause it. He could even stop existing and freewill will still not come around.

(To let you know, the analogy that I'm about to use isn't meant to be an exact analogy, just a logical stepping stone.)

Man makes a computer that is programmed to accept input and calculate outcome, much like God created man to do.

We make programs that it can interpret and thereby provide us with much entertainment by way of video games. when you're playing that first person shooter, there's a vast list of variables that the computer figures out that dictate color, position, damage, etcetera. These actual decisions are made separately and solely by the computer independent of the programmer. Yes, it was programmed to interact with the information in this manner, but it is the one interacting with the input, not the programmer. There are scenarios in the first person shooter realm (for instance) that have never happened. Hopefully (and usually), the computer will interpret this information the way it's been programmed to do, but it currently has the ability to, and does, this independently of, or apart from the programmer. Is the computer reliant on the programming originally given? Yes. You're very smart, but let me finish.

God made Man as a computer that is programmed (by way of DNA to name one of the obvious), and is able to program itself and can interpret, or choose not to interpret certain information. So, not only are we reliant on the programming we received from Him, but we are also reliant on the programming we receive from ourselves. This is why we are self aware, and this is why we are responsible for our own actions and thoughts. And this is ultimately why we are responsible for our own decisions concerning salvation.

You say, "yes but not everyone has the same knowledge of God." True, not everyone has it, but most start out with the same amount and the same capability to obtain it.

For those litterally unable to attain it, "...unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required..." Luke 12:48
This implies that unto whom little is given, little is required. Those mentally or physically incapable of having heard, little is required of them.

Anyone who has read this and, not who understands, but who is able to understand it and chooses not to, will be held accountable for it.

Peace out.

Once again.... It doesn't matter if we are not physicly forced to do what we will do by God personaly. We must do what we will do. Which means we must do what god knows what we will do. Which also means God must do what God knows what God will do. Nothing can be different, because there is no freewill. And we know there is no freewill because God knows what will happen.

 

[Lilly of the Valley]

So, really, God is just a good guesser. He doesn't know what we're going to do, he just makes an educated guess based on past choices. So, does it take a while for God to figure out how babies will react? Do you really mean to say God is not omniscient?

No, no, no. What the problem is here is it is made to make it like God knowing is actually controling what we do, like a pattern that we must follow. But in reality, we make choices that God just knows because He is God. It's not a plan to follow, but mere choices that He simply knows based on ourselves.

 

[Lilly of the Valley]

So are you saying God doesn't know everything 100% he just knows everything that is happening 100% and on that can guess realy realy well at future events?

No, He simply knows, it's not some predetermined plan that we must follow. It's mere knowledge, not a set plan.

 

[Danhalen]

No, no, no. What the problem is here is it is made to make it like God knowing is actually controling what we do, like a pattern that we must follow. But in reality, we make choices that God just knows because He is God. It's not a plan to follow, but mere choices that He simply knows based on ourselves.

So we cannot do what God does not know. God does not just guess really well. God actually knows what we are going to do. It is not possible to do anything God does not know we are going to do. If this is true then it follows there is only one thing which may be done - that which is foreknown. There is no free will with your God, Lilly.

 

[Lilly of the Valley]

So we cannot do what God does not know. God does not just guess really well. God actually knows what we are going to do. It is not possible to do anything God does not know we are going to do. If this is true then it follows there is only one thing which may be done - that which is foreknown. There is no free will with your God, Lilly.

You don't seem to be getting it. Yes, you are going to choose what God knows because God knows you will chose it. That doesn't mean you didn't have the choice to choose something else, God simply knew you'd choose what you did.

 

[Natro]

No, He simply knows, it's not some predetermined plan that we must follow. It's mere knowledge, not a set plan.

Lilly one of the ways of proving there is no freewill is complete knowledge of everything. You can't have both, because either proves the other cannot exist.

 

[Lilly of the Valley]

Lilly one of the ways of proving there is no freewill is complete knowledge of everything. You can't have both, because either proves the other cannot exist.

Okay, God knowing everything doesn't mean we didn't choose. God isn't determing or preplanning anything. Nothing is preplanned or laid out for our actions that must and will happen for us or us to do, God simply just knows what we will do.

 

[Natro]

Okay, God knowing everything doesn't mean we didn't choose. God isn't determing or preplanning anything. Nothing is preplanned or laid out for our actions that must and will happen for us or us to do, God simply just knows what we will do.

How does he know if nothing is planed out?

 

[Lilly of the Valley]

How does he know if nothing is planed out?

Because He is God and can do that.

 

[Natro]

Because He is God and can do that.

So no reason. Just

 

[:æ:]

Still, the claims of the Chrisitans in this thread are incoherent.

This is really very simple: the future is either determined or indeterminate. It is incoherent to say that something is simultaneously indeterminate and known. Indeterminate means "ambiguous, uncertain, not precisely determined or established; not fixed or known in advance." Therefore, if we are to suppose that the future is known, it must be determined.

You Chrisitians continue to argue that the future is simultaneously determined and indeterminate, which is plainly contradictory. It doesn't matter how many times you re-assert the same incoherent claim, it remains incoherent.

 

[Lilly of the Valley]

Still, the claims of the Chrisitans in this thread are incoherent.

This is really very simple: the future is either determined or indeterminate. It is incoherent to say that something is simultaneously indeterminate and known. Indeterminate means "ambiguous, uncertain, not precisely determined or established; not fixed or known in advance." Therefore, if we are to suppose that the future is known, it must be determined.

You Chrisitians continue to argue that the future is simultaneously determined and indeterminate, which is plainly contradictory. It doesn't matter how many times you re-assert the same incoherent claim, it remains incoherent.

The fact is, God can know things and we still choose at the same time. It may seem incoherent to you and not make sense to your mind...well, that's how God is in many of His ways, just look at the Bible.

 

[Natro]

The fact is, God can know things and we still choose at the same time. It may seem incoherent to you and not make sense to your mind...well, that's how God is in many of His ways, just look at the Bible.

Incoherent.

 

[Lilly of the Valley]

Incoherent.

Well, just because it doesn't make sense doesn't make it untrue...

 

[Natro]

Well, just because it doesn't make sense doesn't make it untrue...

Well to that I respond. Isponixil Flo Blo MagaNoo, Flambelga Doj Fojforn Sligque.... And thats the truth.

 

[Danhalen]

You don't seem to be getting it. Yes, you are going to choose what God knows because God knows you will chose it. That doesn't mean you didn't have the choice to choose something else, God simply knew you'd choose what you did.

Lilly, I get it quite well. You are claiming God can do contradictory things. You are then becoming frustrated for my inability to look passed the imposibility of it. You are continuing in your regular fashion of claiming "well it's God, and God can do anything he wants to, whether or not it is logically possible."
I know you understand where we are coming from Lill. One day you will understand how it is incomprehensible to act without logic. We will be there for you on this day.

 

[quatona]

Because He is God and can do that.

One thing that always strikes me as frustrating:
Long discussions in which a partaker makes arguments which are presented as logical, and if they are demonstrated to be illogical, the final "argument" is a truth claim from belief.
I mean, if that is what ultimately counts, why even start to use logic and reason? Why not say that right away that you don´t accept reason and logic as the standards for a discussion? Would spare everyone a lot of effort.

 

[quatona]

Well, just because it doesn't make sense doesn't make it untrue...

I conclude that your "truth" does not (necessarily) make sense.
That´s all that people merely tried to demonstrate all the time.