Olivet Discourse and Revelation Same Event?

[parousia70]

Greetings.

In light of all of this, Revelation 3:3 refers only
to a threatened spiritual visitation of Jesus in judgment upon only
the first-century local church congregation in the city of Sardis
(Revelation 3:1) in the Roman province of "Asia" (Revelation 1:11),
if that congregation didn't repent from its backsliding.

Just How many comings of Christ "as a thief" are taught in scripture?

 

[parousia70]

In the Olivet Discourse, Jesus gave this description in very generalized terms to his disciples who had asked him for signs to look for in his return and the end of the age.

At the end of what "age" were they asking about?

 

[Bible2]

parousia70 posted in message #41 of this thread:

Just How many comings of Christ "as a thief" are taught in scripture?

Greetings.

Scripture places no limit on the number of comings of Christ "as a
thief" to various individuals in the only-spiritual sense of Revelation 3:3.
But there will be only one coming of Christ "as a thief" physically,
at his second coming (Revelation 16:15, 19:7-20:6), when he will
descend from heaven and set his feet upon the Mount of Olives, just
as at his ascension he went into heaven from the Mount of Olives:
"while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out
of their sight. And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he
went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; Which
also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven?
this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so
come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven. Then
returned they unto Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet" (Acts
1:9-12); "Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those
nations [Revelation 19:19-21], as when he fought in the day of
battle. And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives,
which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall
cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west,
and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall
remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south. And ye
shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the
mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled
from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and
the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee. And it
shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor
dark: But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not
day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it
shall be light. And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go
out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of
them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be. And
the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be
one LORD, and his name one" (Zechariah 14:3-9).

Jesus' second coming will be seen by everyone: "Behold, he cometh
with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which
pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him.
Even so, Amen" (Revelation 1:7). "Immediately after the tribulation
of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not
give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers
of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of
the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth
mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of
heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels
with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his
elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other"
(Matthew 24:29-31).

At Jesus' second coming, the church will be resurrected and changed
into immortality, and caught up together/gathered together into the
sky to meet Jesus in the air on his way down to the earth: "For as in
Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man
in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are
Christ's at his coming ... In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at
the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be
raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible
must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality"
(1 Corinthians 15:22-23.52-53). "For this we say unto you by the
word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the
coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep [dead].
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with
the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the
dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain
shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the
Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord"
(1 Thessalonians 4:15-17). "Now we beseech you, brethren, by the
coming [parousia] of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering
together unto him..." (2 Thessalonians 2:1). The second coming
(parousia) didn't happen in 70 AD.

 

[Bible2]

parousia70 posted in message #42 of this thread:

At the end of what "age" were they asking about?

Whatever was in their minds, note that the age of the Old Covenant
ended not in 70 AD, but some 40 years before that: when Jesus
died on the cross, he completely abolished the Old Covenant and
completely instituted the New Covenant: "Having abolished in
his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained
in ordinances" (Ephesians 2:15); "Blotting out the handwriting
of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us,
and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross"
(Colossians 2:14); "For there is verily a disannulling of the
commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness
thereof. For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a
better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God" (Hebrews
7:18-19); "And for this cause he [Jesus] is the mediator of the new
testament [new covenant], that by means of death, for the
redemption of the transgressions that were under the first
testament, they which are called might receive the promise of
eternal inheritance. For where a testament is, there must also of
necessity be the death of the testator. For a testament is of force
after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the
testator liveth" (Hebrews 9:15-17). "For this is my blood of the new
testament [new covenant], which is shed for many for the remission
of sins" (Matthew 26:28).

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

shameless bump

 

[Standing Up]

Wasn't Mt. written pre 70ad and Rev. post 70ad? If so, wouldn't be same event.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Wasn't Mt. written pre 70ad and Rev. post 70ad? If so, wouldn't be same event.

Tis true, but wasn't the rest of whole NT written pre ad70?

Wonder why Revelation would be the only one visioned/written post ad70?

 

[Bible2]

Standing Up posted in message #46 of this thread:
Wasn't Mt. written pre 70ad and Rev. post 70ad? If so, wouldn't be
same event.

Greetings.

How does it logically follow that because the book of Matthew was
written before 70 AD and Revelation was written after 70 AD, that
Matthew 24 can't be referring to the same tribulation and second
coming as Revelation chapters 6-19, which chapters, like Matthew
24, were not fulfilled in 70 AD, and have never been fulfilled?

 

[Gregory Thompson]

I voted other:

Reason why:

Because Matthew 24:29-51 and Revelation chapter 6 seem like the same event but Revelation ends with The judgment and fire .. and the olivet discourse ends with the weeping and gnashing of teeth .. which would mean it is speaking of ending in the light dark dichotomy kingdom .. and not the fire of torment age .

through out the gospels it seems like eternal (or age of) torment in fire and the outer darkness where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth are used interchangably .. but it is entirely possible that it is speaking of identical events happening twice with only one distinguishable difference for some reason .

and that difference is fire vs darkness .

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

I voted other:

Reason why:

Because Matthew 24:29-51 and Revelation chapter 6 seem like the same event but Revelation ends with The judgment and fire .. and the olivet discourse ends with the weeping and gnashing of teeth .. which would mean it is speaking of ending in the light dark dichotomy kingdom .. and not the fire of torment age .

through out the gospels it seems like eternal (or age of) torment in fire and the outer darkness where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth are used interchangably .. but it is entirely possible that it is speaking of identical events happening twice with only one distinguishable difference for some reason .

and that difference is fire vs darkness .

Thank you for your input and vote bro. God bless

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Interesting thread....anymore views?

 

[michaeneu]

The greater part of the Old Testament prophets declared an imminent day of the Lord and then imperceptibly segued into the eschatological consummation or the ultimate restoration of Israel and pacification of its enemies; they made no note of the great passage of time between the two events. The best description I’ve found of this doctrine, which is also found in the aforementioned text in Deuteronomy, is “prophetic eschatological intrusion”. Let me quoted from Deuteronomy:

“To me belongeth vengeance, and recompence; their foot shall slide in due time: for the day of their calamity is at hand, and the things that shall come upon them make haste.” Deut 32:35KJV

I’ll quote from John Gill, Matthew Henry and Adam Clarke on their commentary as to what vengeance and calamity was “at hand” and to come upon Israel in “haste”, the calamity Moses was referring to.

John Gill-INTRODUCTION TO DEUTERONOMY 32
… wherefore, for the rejection of the Messiah and the, persecution of his followers, they would be abhorred of God, De 32:19; who would show his resentment by the rejection of them, by the calling of the Gentiles, and by bringing the nation of the Romans upon them, De 32:20…. whereby utter ruin and destruction in all its shapes would be brought upon them, De 32:22; and, were it not for the insolence of their adversaries, would be entirely destroyed, being such a foolish and unwise people, which appears by not observing what the enemies of the Messiah themselves allow, that there is no rock like him, whom they despised, De 32:26; which enemies are described, and the vengeance reserved for them pointed out, De 32:32; and the song closed with promises of grace and mercy to the Lord's people, and wrath and ruin to his and their enemies, on which account all are called upon to rejoice in the latter day, De 32:36

Matthew Henry-DEUTERONOMY CHAP. XXXII.
In this chapter we have….4. A prediction of the wasting destroying judgments which God would bring upon them for their sins, in which God is here justified by the many aggravations of their impieties (v. 19-33). 5. A promise of the destruction of their enemies and oppressors at last, and the glorious deliverance of a remnant of Israel (v. 36-43).

Adam Clarke-Deuteronomy Chapter 32
The prophetical and historical song of Moses, showing forth the nature of God's doctrine…. Gracious purposes in their behalf, mixed with reproaches for their manifold idolatries, and threatenings against his enemies, 36-42. A promise of salvation to the Gentiles…

Clearly, the expositors above make a mockery of Preterism’s paradigm built upon temporal indicators. According to Gill the calamity that was “at hand” and coming upon them in “haste” were the events of 70 AD and the calling of the Gentiles—almost 1500 years hence. According to Henry the calamity was inclusive of all judgment upon Israel and their ultimate restoration and pacification of its enemies; the latter having yet to take place. And Clarke also confirms the imminent judgments predicted by Moses as encompassing the blessings and curses that were a result of the salvation to the Gentiles at the first advent. Accordingly, Yahweh and His prophets have a different interpretation of “imminence” than Preterism. Obviously, the scope of temporal indicators must conform to Yahweh’s perception of time noted in 2 Peter 3:8 and not Preterism’s paradigm.

Zephaniah forewarned Judah that the day of the Lord is at hand—the imminent judgment at the hands of the Chaldeans (Zep. 1:7) and then imperceptibly segued into the eschatological consummation, the ultimate restoration of Israel and the pacification of its enemies (Zep. 1:2-18; 3:8). Here we have prophetic eschatological intrusion, the prediction of the distant consummation of the Messianic kingdom intruding into an imminent event, which is clearly the doctrine of Deuteronomy 32:2 and a hermeneutic. Clearly this method of the prophets is typological and associated the day of the Lord in their time with the eschatological, antitypical day predicted in the New Testament. Joel, Amos, Isaiah as well as other Old Testament prophets verify that temporal indicators, such as “near” or “at hand”, are not reliable elements upon which to build eschatological doctrine (2 Peter 3:8-9). (This also supports that Historicalism and the “year for a day” principle.)

The New Testament perspective of the day of the Lord is the future. The only reconciliation of the two perspectives concerning the day of the Lord in both the Old and New Testaments is in interpreting the ancient events as typical of the anagogical or eschatological events at the return of Christ, which also underscores the event in 70 AD as typological. This reconciliation precludes multiple fulfillments such as any and all tribulations which the people of Yahweh may face at the hands of the world, which has been the bane of many of the paradigms including classical Historicalism. Where it is upheld that Yahweh chastises the sons and daughters (Heb. 12:6) manifest as hardships, the intercession dubbed the day of the Lord represents the definite time of Yahweh’s judgment drawing a dispensation to an end as the scriptures verify; from our perspective the previous events such as 70 AD are shadows of the theophany at Christ’s return. The judgment that preceded the transition from the first temple age to the second temple age and again at the first advent, the transition from the second temple to that built without hands were typical of the anagogical day of the Lord. This reasoning is also supported by the Olivet Discourse and Christ’s use of the same methodology of the prophets (Matt. 5:17). He also linked the nearness of a typological judgment upon Jerusalem, the events of 70 AD, with his distant eschatological return and this is substantiated by the event concerning the times of the Gentiles.

Michael

 

[squint]

Quite well done below. The O.T. prophets often started their observations in present time, and fast forwarded to various future observations, and ultimate conclusions as you note below.

After some amount of study on preterism, I personally consider the majority of their views as scripturally ignorant. They must force physical time markers into their boxes in order for same to work, and in most cases it doesn't fit whatsoever, nor are their conclusions the 'only view' or anywhere close to accurate.

Anyone with half a wit of scripture can openly see that THE DEVIL and his messengers have a Divine Future Appointment on the Great and Terrible Day of wrath....culminating IN THEIR final destruction, which same has assuredly NOT YET transpired.

The greater part of the Old Testament prophets declared an imminent day of the Lord and then imperceptibly segued into the eschatological consummation or the ultimate restoration of Israel and pacification of its enemies; they made no note of the great passage of time between the two events. The best description I’ve found of this doctrine, which is also found in the aforementioned text in Deuteronomy, is “prophetic eschatological intrusion”. Let me quoted from Deuteronomy:

“To me belongeth vengeance, and recompence; their foot shall slide in due time: for the day of their calamity is at hand, and the things that shall come upon them make haste.” Deut 32:35KJV

I’ll quote from John Gill, Matthew Henry and Adam Clarke on their commentary as to what vengeance and calamity was “at hand” and to come upon Israel in “haste”, the calamity Moses was referring to.

Clearly, the expositors above make a mockery of Preterism’s paradigm built upon temporal indicators. According to Gill the calamity that was “at hand” and coming upon them in “haste” were the events of 70 AD and the calling of the Gentiles—almost 1500 years hence. According to Henry the calamity was inclusive of all judgment upon Israel and their ultimate restoration and pacification of its enemies; the latter having yet to take place. And Clarke also confirms the imminent judgments predicted by Moses as encompassing the blessings and curses that were a result of the salvation to the Gentiles at the first advent. Accordingly, Yahweh and His prophets have a different interpretation of “imminence” than Preterism. Obviously, the scope of temporal indicators must conform to Yahweh’s perception of time noted in 2 Peter 3:8 and not Preterism’s paradigm.

Zephaniah forewarned Judah that the day of the Lord is at hand—the imminent judgment at the hands of the Chaldeans (Zep. 1:7) and then imperceptibly segued into the eschatological consummation, the ultimate restoration of Israel and the pacification of its enemies (Zep. 1:2-18; 3:8). Here we have prophetic eschatological intrusion, the prediction of the distant consummation of the Messianic kingdom intruding into an imminent event, which is clearly the doctrine of Deuteronomy 32:2 and a hermeneutic. Clearly this method of the prophets is typological and associated the day of the Lord in their time with the eschatological, antitypical day predicted in the New Testament. Joel, Amos, Isaiah as well as other Old Testament prophets verify that temporal indicators, such as “near” or “at hand”, are not reliable elements upon which to build eschatological doctrine (2 Peter 3:8-9). (This also supports that Historicalism and the “year for a day” principle.)

The New Testament perspective of the day of the Lord is the future. The only reconciliation of the two perspectives concerning the day of the Lord in both the Old and New Testaments is in interpreting the ancient events as typical of the anagogical or eschatological events at the return of Christ, which also underscores the event in 70 AD as typological. This reconciliation precludes multiple fulfillments such as any and all tribulations which the people of Yahweh may face at the hands of the world, which has been the bane of many of the paradigms including classical Historicalism. Where it is upheld that Yahweh chastises the sons and daughters (Heb. 12:6) manifest as hardships, the intercession dubbed the day of the Lord represents the definite time of Yahweh’s judgment drawing a dispensation to an end as the scriptures verify; from our perspective the previous events such as 70 AD are shadows of the theophany at Christ’s return. The judgment that preceded the transition from the first temple age to the second temple age and again at the first advent, the transition from the second temple to that built without hands were typical of the anagogical day of the Lord. This reasoning is also supported by the Olivet Discourse and Christ’s use of the same methodology of the prophets (Matt. 5:17). He also linked the nearness of a typological judgment upon Jerusalem, the events of 70 AD, with his distant eschatological return and this is substantiated by the event concerning the times of the Gentiles.

Michael

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

*snip*

Quite well done below. The O.T. prophets often started their observations in present time, and fast forwarded to various future observations, and ultimate conclusions as you note below.

After some amount of study on preterism, I personally consider the majority of their views as scripturally ignorant. They must force physical time markers into their boxes in order for same to work, and in most cases it doesn't fit whatsoever, nor are their conclusions the 'only view' or anywhere close to accurate.

Anyone with half a wit of scripture can openly see that THE DEVIL and his messengers have a Divine Future Appointment on the Great and Terrible Day of wrath....culminating IN THEIR final destruction, which same has assuredly NOT YET transpired.

Thank you squint. I started a thread here on that exact topic:

http://www.christianforums.com/t7441626/

 

[squint]

Thank you squint. I started a thread here on that exact topic:

http://www.christianforums.com/t7441626/

It's a phase lloj. You'll get through it....

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

It's a phase lloj. You'll get through it....

Won't we all

 

[HarrisonS]

I believe that the question, "Olivet Discourse and Revelation Same Event?" is really something of an oversimplification. Both of these prophesy many individual events, and one would need to go through the two texts, event by event to decide which are the same and which are not. Some events in one are also in the other, while other events are not.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

I believe that the question, "Olivet Discourse and Revelation Same Event?" is really something of an oversimplification. Both of these prophesy many individual events, and one would need to go through the two texts, event by event to decide which are the same and which are not. Some events in one are also in the other, while other events are not.

Yes. That would indeed be a tedious endeavor.

I can see Revelation as a number of events expressed in different ways but essentially being the same.
Some views appear to be from "heaven" and others from the "land".

I have an interesting thread here concerning "Face of Him and the Throne" if you are interested.

http://www.christianforums.com/t7435912/
Face of One sitting upon the throne Reve 6/20

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Bumping

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

There is an interesting thread on the GT board concerning Preterism and the Olivet Discourse for those interested

http://www.christianforums.com/t7525976/
Jesus' words overturned preterist ideas in his day