Olivet Discourse and Revelation Same Event?

[LittleLambofJesus]

Hmm. So far only 9 votes. The Eschatology board must be "deader" than I thought...

 

[Bible2]

Even in a forum with more readers, only a few of
them may find some questions interesting.

Matthew 24:4-51 and Revelation chapters 6-19 refer to
the same future time-period, the coming tribulation,
followed by the second coming.

Revelation 6:4-8,12 refers to the largest war,
famine, plagues, and earthquake out of the various
wars, famines, plagues, and earthquakes of Matthew
24:6-8.

Revelation 6:11b refers to the martyrdom of Matthew
24:9-13.

Since Christ is the rider on the white horse in
Revelation 19:11, Revelation 6:2 could represent the
gospel of Christ reaching the nations, as in Matthew
24:14.

Revelation 13:5 refers to the Antichrist who will set up
the abomination of desolation of Matthew 24:15,
which is Daniel 11:31, and which will be associated with his
fulfillment of Daniel 11:36 and 2 Thessalonians 2:4.

Revelation 12:6 refers to the fleeing of the church in
Matthew 24:17-20, only one part of which is Matthew 24:16.

Revelation 13:7-10, 14:12-13, and 17:16 refer to the
great tribulation which the Antichrist and his ten kings
will bring upon the church and the world (cf. Isaiah 14:17), so
that if it weren't cut short, nobody would survive, as in
Matthew 24:21-22.

Revelation 19:7-21 refers to the second coming of
Christ of Matthew 24:27-31,36-51.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Intersting. The exact forms of the greek word for "binding" and "becoming" are used in Revelation and the Olivet Discourse......

Revelation 22:6 And he said to me: "These the Words faithful and true. And [*the] Lord, the God of the spirits of the prophets commissions the messenger of Him to show to the bond-servents of Him which-things is binding/dei <1163> (5904) to be becoming/genesqai <1096> (5635) in swiftness.
[Revelation 1:1/22:6,Matt 24:6, Mark 13:7, Luke 21:9]

Matthew 24:6 "Ye shall be being about yet to be hearing battles and hearings of battles.
Be seeing no be being alarmed for it is binding/dei <1163> (5904) to be becoming/genesqai <1096> (5635) but not as yet is the End
[Mark 13:7, Luke 21:9, Revelation 1:1/22:6]

 

[MrSnow]

I voted "other". And by "other" I mean "I don't know".

5 years ago I would have voted that they are referring one and the same thing. Now, I most definitely believe that the Olivet Discourse is about the events leading up to and including the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple in 70AD. But I am no longer sure that that is the intention of Revelation.

I do find a lot of the evidence for an early date for Revelation to be pretty compelling, but no longer 100% convincing. I do agree that Ireneaus was not referring to the book of Revelation, but rather to John in his (in)famous quote.

What I do believe about Revelation is that first and foremost it had to be relevent to its original 1st century audience, with the events dealing directly to their circumstance, whether that be the AD60's or the AD90's. I also believe that they apply secondarily (as well as principally. Nothing like a seeming contradiction, eh?) to all persecuted Christians of all time, with God judging all evil empires and entities who rise up against His people, culminating in the final judgement of all people, with the resurrection and all that jazz. I don't believe that it necessarily refers to one final huge all-out battle at the end of time that we can still look forward to (not ruling out that it could), but I don't believe that the last generation is the intended audience, but rather the persecuted 1st century christians.

I don't see any reason to think that the Olivet Discourse has any other application other than the audience to whom He was speaking and the events that would follow just a few decades later. I would just have to be absolutely, 100% convinced that a date of the AD60's is the only acceptable date for Revelation with absolutely no shadow of doubt.

 

[HisdaughterJen]

Ok. But you do agree the Olivet Discourse and Revelation 1-19 are the same event? If so, then we are at least in agreement on that. And if you respond to this thread could you pleas also vote? Thanks. [only 5 votes so far LOL!!!!]

No, they are not the same event. The Olivet discourse is the same thing as Rev 6, seals 1-4 leading up to the sun/moon darkening which is seal #6. The rest of Revelation is seal #7 which are the trumpets, beasts, bowls, and then the millennium, and new heavens/new earth. Matt 24 doesn't mention the trumpets, beasts, bowls, millennium and new heavens/new earth.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Thks for your vote Jen

 

[Zebra1552]

I believe it happens just prior to the events in Revelation. However, I do not care enough about the end times to study it further. I have a job to do, and my time is better spent doing ministry.

 

[HisdaughterJen]

I believe it happens just prior to the events in Revelation. However, I do not care enough about the end times to study it further. I have a job to do, and my time is better spent doing ministry.

Well, we all have a calling and our own gifts that we must attend to.

~Jen (INFP)

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

I believe it happens just prior to the events in Revelation. However, I do not care enough about the end times to study it further. I have a job to do, and my time is better spent doing ministry.

Thk you for your thoughts and for your continuing ministry of the Good-News of the Christ of YHWH......

Matt 10:23 "Whenever yet they may be chasing/persecuting/diwkwsin <1377> (5725) ye in the city, this, be fleeing into the other.
For Amen I am saying to ye, not no ye should be finishing the cities of the Israel till ever may be coming/elqh <2064> (5632) the Son of the Man".

 

[Zebra1552]

True. Not bashing any study of it, just isn't in my best interests right now. Maybe once I reach the NT in my reading I will, but not now.

 

[Bible2]

The "must" in Revelation 22:6, 1:1 means that the
prophecies of Revelation chapters 6-22 aren't
conditional or changeable, but will be fulfilled
exactly as they've been foretold.

---

The Olivet Discourse (Matthew 24) isn't about the
events leading up to and including the destruction
of Jerusalem and the temple in 70 AD, because the
abomination of desolation (Matthew 24:15, Daniel
11:31,36, 2 Thessalonians 2:4) didn't happen in 70
AD, neither did the second coming of Jesus Christ
and the gathering together (rapture) of the church
to him (Matthew 24:30-31, 2 Thessalonians 2:1,
1 Thessalonians 4:15-17).

---

No evidence requires an early date for Revelation.
Irenaeus' famous quote in "Against Heresies" clearly
refers to the apostle John seeing the vision of the
book of Revelation in the 90s AD.

---

Nothing requires that Revelation chapters 6-22
had to concern events dealing directly with the
circumstances of their original first-century
recipients. Only the events of the letters of
Revelation chapters 2-3 dealt directly with the
circumstances of seven first-century local church
congregations in the Roman province of "Asia"
(Revelation 1:11).

The myriad and quite detailed events of Revelation
chapters 6-22 didn't happen in the first century,
or even the second. They've never been fulfilled,
just as the prophesied events of Matthew 24, which
are a short summary of the events of Revelation
chapters 6-19, have never been fulfilled.

---

The temporary darkening of the sun and reddening of
the moon at one point during the first stage of the
coming tribulation (Revelation 6:12) isn't the same
event as the temporary darkening of both the sun and
the moon at the second coming after the entire
tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31) of Revelation chapters
6-18 is over.

Matthew 24 doesn't mention the detailed events of
Revelation chapters 8-22, such as the coming
tribulation's trumpets, beasts, bowls (or vials), or
the coming millennium, new heaven, new earth, and new
Jerusalem, because Matthew 24 is just a short summary
of the coming tribulation and second coming; Jesus
knew at that time that the apostles weren't ready yet
to get all the many details of things to come (John
16:12-13).

Matthew 24 does mention the still-unfulfilled
abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel the
prophet (Matthew 24:15), when the still-unfulfilled
Antichrist will attack a third Jewish temple in Jerusalem,
stop the Mosaic sacrifices in front of it, and then sit in
the temple and proclaim himself God (Daniel 11:31,36,
2 Thessalonians 2:4), thus beginning his 42-month
Luciferian reign of terror over the earth, the awful
details of which are given in Revelation 13:4-18.

And Matthew 24 does mention the still-unfulfilled
second coming of Jesus Christ (Matthew 24:30-31),
when, after the entire tribulation (Matthew 24:29)
of Revelation chapters 6-18 is over, he will return
and marry the church and destroy the Antichrist
(Revelation 19:7-21).

Before the second coming, Revelation shows clearly
that the church will have to go through the reign of
the Antichrist and his worldwide persecution of the
church (Revelation 13:7-10, 14:12-13, 20:4, Matthew
24:9-13).

2 Thessalonians 2 shows clearly that Jesus can't
come to gather together the church until sometime
after the Antichrist commits the abomination of
desolation (2 Thessalonians 2:1-4), for when Jesus
comes to gather together the church he will destroy
the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:1,8).

The scriptures couldn't have made it any easier for
us to understand what we're going to have to face.
Jesus has told us everything beforehand in the
Olivet Discourse (Mark 13:23) and in the book of
Revelation (Revelation 1:1, 22:16). We'll have only
ourselves to blame if we're surprised by anything
that's going to happen, or surprised that we'll have
to go through anything that's going to happen.

If Jesus cared enough about the end times to tell us
everything in such great detail, how could we possibly
feel no need to study what he said? Is not our job to
study to show ourselves approved unto God (2 Timothy
2:15), to know all of the scriptures (2 Timothy
3:15-17), and live by their every word (Matthew 4:4)?

Isn't it a good practice to preach the word of God
(2 Timothy 4:2), even every single thing that Jesus
said? (Matthew 28:19-20). How then can we ignore and
avoid Jesus' words in the Olivet Discourse and
Revelation, as if they're irrelevant?

The good news, or gospel, of Jesus Christ includes
everything in the books of the Bible called the
Gospels (Mark 1:1). So we can't preach the good news
without including the Olivet Discourse. We can't even
leave out the smallest detail anywhere in the Gospels
(Matthew 26:13) or any other part of the Bible. Every
word is to be lived by (Matthew 4:4), every part is
profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction,
for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God
may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good
works (2 Timothy 3:16-17).

---

Our best interest is to be reading in every section
of the Bible at the same time. We shouldn't spend too
long in just one section and avoid the others until
some future time. We can think of the Bible as
seven volumes:

1. Genesis to Deuteronomy (Pentateuch)
2. Joshua to Esther (History)
3. Job to Song of Songs (Poetry)
4. Isaiah to Malachi (Prophets)
5. Matthew to Acts (Gospels & Acts)
6. Romans to Hebrews (Paul, & Silas?)
7. James to Revelation (Other Apostles)

We can read at least one chapter in each volume
every day, so that we're always current in each
volume. When we reach the end of a volume, we can
simply start again at the first chapter of that
volume, and not wait until we've finished all of the
other volumes, for the larger volumes are less dense
with doctrine, whereas the shorter volumes are packed
dense with doctrine, so that a more frequent reading
of the smaller volumes is in order.

What a feast our God has laid before us in his word!
We can keep the feast every day, a seven-course
banquet packed full of life-giving power (Matthew 4:4).

And as we stay current in each volume of the Bible,
we'll see all the myriad and amazing connections
between them. We'll see how they all complement each
other, explain each other, support each other, like a
finely woven tapestry where every thread is important,
where no thread can be pulled on in an attempt to
toss it away, without affecting many other threads,
indeed the entire tapestry, so that it will unravel
into a meaningless rag should we dare to try to excise
the knowledge of any of it as "not in our best
interest".

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Thought I might be this up again. So far most are in agreement they are the same event. If so, then partial preterists would be correct that most of the Olivet Discourse and Revelation are fulfilled I would think.
I don't see too many RCs or Orthodox voting on it so far ehehe..... Thoughts?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Oh....I forgot about this thread

 

[parousia70]

Only the events of the letters of
Revelation chapters 2-3 dealt directly with the
circumstances of seven first-century local church
congregations in the Roman province of "Asia"
(Revelation 1:11).

In Light of the following, how is that possible?

Rev 3:3
Remember, therefore, what you have received and heard; obey it, and repent. But if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what time I will come to you.

 

[rdclmn72]

The hebrew proto-church heard it with not one gentile in sight.

There's nothing there to establish a gentile church either then or in the future.

 

[Adoniram]

They both reveal conditions and events that will happen just before the Lord returns physically to this earth to begin his reign on the throne of David. From Zechariah 14, Acts 1, and in Rev. 19 it is clear that it will be a physical return rather than a spiritual one as some who propose that his return occurred in 70AD insist.

In the Olivet Discourse, Jesus gave this description in very generalized terms to his disciples who had asked him for signs to look for in his return and the end of the age.

In Revelation 1-3, Jesus has messages examining the spiritual conditions of seven major churches that existed by the end of the 1st century, but these messages also reflect stages the church has gone through since that time.

In Revelation 4-19, Jesus gave John, who had already heard his earlier Olivet discourse, a much more detailed description of things that would occur in the time just before his return.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Bump for more votes

 

[Bible2]

LittleLambofJesus posted in message #32 of this thread:

So far most are in agreement they are the same event. If so, then
partial preterists would be correct that most of the Olivet Discourse
and Revelation are fulfilled I would think.

Greetings.

Note that the fact that the Olivet Discourse and Revelation chapters
6-19 describe the same endtime tribulation and second coming of
Jesus in no way proves partial preterism to be correct, for it has
never been proven that the tribulation events described in the Olivet
Discourse and Revelation chapters 6-18 have even started yet.

 

[Bible2]

parousia70 posted in message #34 of this thread:

Originally Posted by Bible2

Only the events of the letters of Revelation chapters 2-3 dealt
directly with the circumstances of seven first-century local church
congregations in the Roman province of "Asia" (Revelation 1:11).

In Light of the following, how is that possible?

Rev 3:3
Remember, therefore, what you have received and heard; obey it,
and repent. But if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and
you will not know at what time I will come to you.

Greetings.

Note that it's the other way around. In light of the fact that the
highly detailed tribulation and second coming events of the Olivet
Discourse and Revelation chapters 6-19 have never been fulfilled,
Revelation 3:3 cannot be referring to the second coming as
occurring in the first century. The as-yet-unfulfilled second coming,
described in Matthew 24:29-31 and Revelation 19:7-21, will be the
bodily descent of Jesus from heaven to the Mount of Olives (Acts
1:11-12, Zechariah 14:4), when he will rescue the Jews in Jerusalem
from an attack upon Jerusalem by all the nations of the world
(Zechariah 14:2-5), and then will set up Jerusalem as the capital of
his millennial, worldwide kingdom (Zechariah 14:8-21, Micah 4:1-4,
Revelation 20:4-6). In light of all of this, Revelation 3:3 refers only
to a threatened spiritual-only visitation of Jesus in judgment upon only
the first-century local church congregation in the city of Sardis
(Revelation 3:1) in the Roman province of "Asia" (Revelation 1:11),
if that congregation didn't repent from its backsliding.

 

[Bible2]

rdclmn7 posted in message #35 of this thread:

Wrong audience.

The hebrew proto-church heard it with not one gentile in sight.

There's nothing there to establish a gentile church either then or in
the future.

Greetings.

Note that all of Revelation, from beginning to end, was given to the
church (Revelation 1:1, Revelation 22:16). The seven first-century
local congregations in the Roman province of "Asia" addressed in
Revelation chapters 2-3 were part of the church, for they were
seven "churches" (Revelation 1:11). All seven of them could have
included both Jewish and Gentile believers, just as Ephesus
contained Gentile believers (Ephesians 3:1), and Ephesus was one
of the seven churches (Revelation 1:11). And even in the still-
future, as-yet-unfulfilled section of Revelation, that section regarding
"things which must be hereafter" (Revelation 4:1b), the believers
living in the endtime tribulation include Gentiles from every nation
(Revelation 7:9,14), and there are no believers outside of the church
(Ephesians 4:4-5).