Old Testament saints were born again.

[ZacharyB]

God's people are patient and kind.

You mean how Jesus was patient and kind?
You mean how Jesus verbally attacked people (and called them names)
... those who insisted on teaching false doctrines to the people?
IMO, false doctrine cannot be tolerated ... it is too eternally dangerous!

However, Jesus did teach Paul to castigate the churches with tact ...
as he mixed in his dire warnings with many edifications, exhortations, etc.
But, today's western churches are so hopeless (totally dumbed-down)
that they don't even understand/comprehend his method of writing!
They miss, and/or refuse to follow, his dire warnings about losing salvation.
(Jesus did the same in the gospels, but was more blunt about it.
And He was not preaching only to born-again believers like Paul was.)

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Well, Jesus is God and He could read minds and know men's hearts. You are not Jesus. You also do not know with 100% certainty that you are right in everything you teach, either. Love and patience needs to be combined with teaching others. I just do not ever get that impression from our talks when we disagree. That is the one missing ingredient, my friend. Love. For is not love what we are supposed to show to one another? One can speak what they want to say in regards to their beliefs with Scripture and do so in love (in addition to warning them in an indirect way). Believers can correct, but it is with the Word (2 Timothy 3:16). It is with kind words and making no room or doubt that you are doing so in love, my friend. Love first. Show that love first. Prove it to me. Prove that Christ is in you (2 Corinthians 13:5). This would be with love. For without love we are nothing (1 Corinthians 13:2). For God is love (1 John 4:8).


...

 

[HeartThaw]

Well, Jesus is God and He could read minds and know men's hearts. You are not Jesus. You also do not know with 100% certainty that you are right in everything you teach, either. Love and patience needs to be combined with teaching others. I just do not ever get that impression from our talks when we disagree. That is the one missing ingredient, my friend. Love. For is not love what we are supposed to show to one another? One can speak what they want to say in regards to their beliefs with Scripture and do so in love (in addition to warning them in an indirect way). Believers can correct, but it is with the Word (2 Timothy 3:16). It is with kind words and making no room or doubt that you are doing so in love, my friend. Love first. Show that love first. Prove it to me. Prove that Christ is in you (2 Corinthians 13:5). This would be with love. For without love we are nothing (1 Corinthians 13:2). For God is love (1 John 4:8).


...

Who are you speaking to?...I see no quote. Do you realize the correction brother Jason? It's awesome if you can humbly do so, let's just get it right. I have seen no one (yet) not treat you with love in this thread.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

When there is no quote, it is generally understood that one is replying to the recent post. As for being loving: He was defending the idea that He can verbally attack others like Jesus did. But Zachary is not Jesus. He cannot read people's hearts or minds.


...

 

[HeartThaw]

When there is no quote, it is generally understood that one is replying to the recent post. As for being loving: He was defending the idea that He can verbally attack others like Jesus did. But Zachary is not Jesus. He cannot read people's hearts or minds.


...

That's not what I got from what he said, what I got is Jesus did call some a den of vipers, and He did. He had good reason to. I agree with him that false doctrines can't be tolerated and seeing it preached can irritate and aggravate some more then others. I also get irritated because it is confusing to new Christians, though I also try to be polite but when the problems persist and then attacks come from these folks ... I can get aggravated, some can get nasty and will just continue on in the error of their ways. I pray God help me with patience with those who are confused though trying to help but are only hurting their overall intent.

I'm sure I've called people vipers and heathen not knowing them, or their intent and being judgmental when I shouldn't be. Some are just confused, and I'm just human I can't read hearts, and sometimes my discernment isn't 100%.. I personally just can't believe the scope of false teachings on Christian websites... It hurts my heart that it's so hard to get to truth, and some substance..people you can trust to hear from with what you speak of, LOVE... This is the age of deception and we should keep a close eye on what we are accepting as truth.. making sure it's not twisted, distorted, subverted, unclean spirit, half lies mixed with pieces of truth...nay, people need the whole truth, and nothing but it.. So help us God

But back to the op... Can we agree The Holy Spirit came after Christ ?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

That's not what I got from what he said, what I got is Jesus did call some a den of vipers, and He did. He had good reason to. I agree with him that false doctrines can't be tolerated and seeing it preached can irritate and aggravate some more then others. I also get irritated because it is confusing to new Christians, though I also try to be polite but when the problems persist and then attacks come from these folks ... I can get aggravated, some can get nasty and will just continue on in the error of their ways. I pray God help me with patience with those who are confused though trying to help but are only hurting their overall intent.

I'm sure I've called people vipers and heathen not knowing them, or their intent and being judgmental when I shouldn't be. Some are just confused, and I'm just human I can't read hearts, and sometimes my discernment isn't 100%.. I personally just can't believe the scope of false teachings on Christian websites... It hurts my heart that it's so hard to get to truth, and some substance..people you can trust to hear from with what you speak of, LOVE... This is the age of deception and we should keep a close eye on what we are accepting as truth.. making sure it's not twisted, distorted, subverted, unclean spirit, half lies mixed with pieces of truth...nay, people need the whole truth, and nothing but it.. So help us God

But back to the op... Can we agree The Holy Spirit came after Christ ?

I don't think we as believers can call people vipers, etc. because we are not Jesus (who knows the hearts of men). Can we tell people to repent of their sins? Yes. But in most cases to call people names is anti-productive if we are only human. I think that if we are hurt or if we see someone insult God (by their beliefs) we then feel like we have to retaliate. But God is in control; And we conquer our enemies not with putting out fire with fire but with the opposite element. In other words, love is the cure for evil or things that are doctrinally incorrect. Yes, Paul said the Galatians were foolish, but he first proved his love by action with them personally. He could talk to them like that. He earned that right because he demonstrated to them that he was loving and good.

As for how God dwelled within believers thru out time: I do not believe God changes all that much in the way that He operates with man. I believe God is consistent. This is not only proven by logic but by Scripture. But am I willing to argue this point with Scripture on this? Not at the moment. I am not sure you would want to hear my case with Scripture. You already believe the way you do and you are comfortable with that. On the other hand, if you are open to seeing verses that suggest otherwise, then I would be happy to take a week or two (or more) so as to gather many verses to prove my case to you (even providing a Biblical commentary to the verses you brought up). For truth is not something we can just debate back and forth and get hot headed over (So as to discover it). Truth is something you work out with God and His Word in deep prayer and by being honest with yourself (in trying to please God rather than men or what is popular) (2 Timothy 2:15).


...

 

[HeartThaw]

I don't think we as believers can call people vipers, etc. because we are not Jesus (who knows the hearts of men). Can we tell people to repent of their sins? Yes. But in most cases to call people names is anti-productive if we are only human. I think that if we are hurt or if we see someone insult God (by their beliefs) we then feel like we have to retaliate. But God is in control; And we conquer our enemies not with putting out fire with fire but with the opposite element. In other words, love is the cure for evil or things that are doctrinally incorrect. Yes, Paul said the Galatians were foolish, but he first proved his love by action with them personally. He could talk to them like that. He earned that right because he demonstrated to them that he was loving and good.

As for how God dwelled within believers thru out time: I do not believe God changes all that much in the way that He operates with man. I believe God is consistent. This is not only proven by logic but by Scripture. But am I willing to argue this point with Scripture on this? Not at the moment. I am not sure you would want to hear my case with Scripture. You already believe the way you do and you are comfortable with that. On the other hand, if you are open to seeing verses that suggest otherwise, then I would be happy to take a week or two (or more) so as to gather many verses to prove my case to you (even providing a Biblical commentary to the verses you brought up). For truth is not something we can just debate back and forth and get hot headed over (So as to discover it). Truth is something you work out with God and His Word in deep prayer and by being honest with yourself (in trying to please God rather than men or what is popular) (2 Timothy 2:15).


...

Ok, brother Jason... All I'm seeing is finger pointing, as ye must be all knowing and all perfect..? I admit " I can be wrong " but if you don't get upset by seeing people who seek Christ get led in confusion by worldly mean spirited folks in to false doctrines... and that doesn't bother you, and you don't do something about it, I'd say there is something wrong with you. People who show NO LOVE, support zionism, or water salvation, a works based salvation, or unclean spirit doctrines, osas, etc... and I'm supposed to show that I condone or " love " it ..nay, I love them, but I am disappointed at what they are doing, as I love you but don't like what you are doing right now, would I call you a viper? Nay, unless you prove me that what's inside is bad fruit, built without care or in hate, pride, deception, and being of calculated intent with aim to hurt and distort.. I don't think that is you, I just think you have a misunderstanding of the topic at hand,

If you would like to post those commentaries on the scriptures I've provided here I would be happy to discuss.

I stand up, am mocked, hated, disrespected, insulted, ganged up on, dealing with ugly spirits in a warfare of spirit. I am a vessel for Him..I carry my cross for real Jason and until the last breath I will stand for truth. No matter the cost of dealing with these types or anything else, am I wrong for coming against those who preach zionism mixed with kabbalah or apocryphal? Or a prosperity gospel etc... I am here to come against such ... This is a war brother Jason, a spiritual warfare, do you keep your armor of God on? ... I do, and I'm always ready, but people themselves are not my enemy, what's inside is the problem, the lack of love for their fellow man is the problem, no pity, no care, no concern, no compassion, no mercy, the spirit of pride, and confusion, hostility, the lack of seeking to understand.

Again you can post your commentaries, I will read along with the other readers here, I don't mind entertaining a different point of you, but... I don't have to accept it unless there's VERY good reason, I would hope and pray... You do the same.

 

[ZacharyB]

When there is no quote, it is generally understood that one is replying to the recent post.

My dearest sweet, but misguided, brother (is dat better?):
Thou shouldest understand by now ...
one cannot be sure to be the next to post,
for another can easily post ahead of you!
P.S.
IMO, seriously misguided brethren should be seriously straightened out
... there just isn't time for [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]-footing around.
E.G. Jesus had NO patience with false teachers, and neither did the other NT writers!
Admit it, you simply don't like to be embarrassed about your many errors.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

My dearest sweet, but misguided, brother (is dat better?):
Thou shouldest understand by now ...
one cannot be sure to be the next to post,
for another can easily post ahead of you!

This sounds like you are mocking me and you are not saying these words with true sincerity.

P.S.
IMO, seriously misguided brethren should be seriously straightened out
... there just isn't time for [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]-footing around.
E.G. Jesus had NO patience with false teachers, and neither did the other NT writers!

While it is true that God's people are destroyed for lack of knowledge, not knowing certain topics in the Bible correctly is a salvation issue.

What exactly is the definition of a false teacher according to the Bible?

Where does it say in the Bible that not knowing if the OT saints did not have the Spirit is a salvation issue?

Admit it, you simply don't like to be embarrassed about your many errors.

Sorry, I am not embarrassed in the slightest. I am very comfortable in what I believe (and I feel it is backed up solidly with Scripture). I would prefer you:

(a) Don't insult me and leave out the personal hurtful comments and just use Scripture.
(b) Make a list of all the verses you think supports your view that OT saints were not born again and they did not have God indwelling them.

I would prefer to do a deep study on this topic further and take several weeks in deep prayer with God with the verses you provided and in discovering more verses that show how God's people in the OT had been regenerated and had the Spirit of God living within them. I would prefer providing a lengthy commentary to the verses you provided and for the ones I provided. If you do not have the patience for my reply then move on, my friend. But I prefer taking my time with God in regards to studying His Word deeper. If you want to continue to insult me, then go right ahead.

Side Note:

Please take note that I will have to pray to God to see if He wants me to reply back here (after doing such a study). Oh, and yes. I have done it before. I have taken time out studying a topic deeply and then returning with a better understanding so as to give a better reply (with Scripture).


...

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Ok, brother Jason... All I'm seeing is finger pointing, as ye must be all knowing and all perfect..? I admit " I can be wrong " but if you don't get upset by seeing people who seek Christ get led in confusion by worldly mean spirited folks in to false doctrines... and that doesn't bother you, and you don't do something about it, I'd say there is something wrong with you. People who show NO LOVE, support zionism, or water salvation, a works based salvation, or unclean spirit doctrines, osas, etc... and I'm supposed to show that I condone or " love " it ..nay, I love them, but I am disappointed at what they are doing, as I love you but don't like what you are doing right now, would I call you a viper? Nay, unless you prove me that what's inside is bad fruit, built without care or in hate, pride, deception, and being of calculated intent with aim to hurt and distort.. I don't think that is you, I just think you have a misunderstanding of the topic at hand,

If you would like to post those commentaries on the scriptures I've provided here I would be happy to discuss.

I stand up, am mocked, hated, disrespected, insulted, ganged up on, dealing with ugly spirits in a warfare of spirit. I am a vessel for Him..I carry my cross for real Jason and until the last breath I will stand for truth. No matter the cost of dealing with these types or anything else, am I wrong for coming against those who preach zionism mixed with kabbalah or apocryphal? Or a prosperity gospel etc... I am here to come against such ... This is a war brother Jason, a spiritual warfare, do you keep your armor of God on? ... I do, and I'm always ready, but people themselves are not my enemy, what's inside is the problem, the lack of love for their fellow man is the problem, no pity, no care, no concern, no compassion, no mercy, the spirit of pride, and confusion, hostility, the lack of seeking to understand.

Again you can post your commentaries, I will read along with the other readers here, I don't mind entertaining a different point of you, but... I don't have to accept it unless there's VERY good reason, I would hope and pray... You do the same.

You admitted with me that you have gotten angry with me before several times. Also, when you gave me that link at CC, you had in fact said something that I would consider inappropriate that should have at least gotten you a warning in being banned (if you did not stop saying such words). For you actually did say something inappropriate there (IMO).

You said,

"Place is such a joke, nothing but wolves in sheeps clothes, God help the little ones here."​

http://christianchat.com/miscellane...deo-unfamiliar-spirit-work-4.html#post2609426

Granted, they were insulting you, and that was not nice, but two wrongs do not make a right, my friend.
As for me replying after I do a deep study, I will have to pray about it (if God wants me to reply here).

In any event, may God bless you.
And please be well.
I think it is best we take a break talking for a while again.
It seems we always bumping heads because of your anger.
This is not a normal thing within a healthy Christian relationship.
Oh, and yes, I do have positive and good fellowship with other believers (where there is no constant anger between us). As for believers teaching falsely: We are not lash out at them in anger. We are to pray and do good towards our enemies.


...

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Remember, Jesus said,

"But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment." (Matthew 12:36).


...

 

[HeartThaw]

You admitted with me that you have gotten angry with me before several times. Also, when you gave me that link at CC, you had in fact said something that I would consider inappropriate that should have at least gotten you a warning in being banned (if you did not stop saying such words). For you actually did say something inappropriate there (IMO).

You said,

"Place is such a joke, nothing but wolves in sheeps clothes, God help the little ones here."​

http://christianchat.com/miscellane...deo-unfamiliar-spirit-work-4.html#post2609426

Granted, they were insulting you, and that was not nice, but two wrongs do not make a right, my friend.
As for me replying after I do a deep study, I will have to pray about it (if God wants me to reply here).

In any event, may God bless you.
And please be well.
I think it is best we take a break talking for a while again.
It seems we always bumping heads because of your anger.
This is not a normal thing within a healthy Christian relationship.
Oh, and yes, I do have positive and good fellowship with other believers (where there is no constant anger between us). As for believers teaching falsely: We are not lash out at them in anger. We are to pray and do good towards our enemies.


...

I've spent a lot of time at Christian chat ... and you don't know my experiences there. Since the beginning i was not handled with care and love, as ANY Christian should be ...I've had someone who claims to be a "creation tutor " tell me to go back to the streets, I've written one lady my story for 2 hours because she pm's me asking, only for her to treat me bad and negative. This never stopped. There was not much of ANYTHING learned there because the Holy Spirit does not let me accept false doctrines such as " gematria ". If they can't sell you on bad doctrine then it's the continuation of an argument the day before that goes on for hundreds of pages, do you think this is good representation of a " Christian chat " well... I don't think so, some even see themselves in wedding dresses "marrying Jesus", grown men...
http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/103182-desire-marry-jesus.html

Yet these types make all the threads and get tons of responses while the ones with actually substance gets put down and shunned. I spent two years there and hardly LEARNED anything of substance, as most follow what's comfortable and who they are comfortable with. Either it's worldly mindless chatter, or people arguing spinning their wheels daily about bible " discussion " ( going no where ). I've been treated VERY badly at that site from the very beginning. Insulted and disrespected well more times then I can count, yet not mod ever stepped in to say anything, ever.... Yet the day I tell one to keep his mouth shut if he had nothing good to say ... I get a infraction ? And yes i think the ones or the one at the top has no CARE how the site is ran or if there is anything edifying going on, rather loves to send pm's every month asking for donations.

That's fine Jason, you don't want to show your commentary to us? That's up to you, though anyone reading will say you are cutting the conversation without just due, no one is insulting, attacking, or even being mean to you,... and anyone else would at least leave a response to the scriptures I've provided that show the Holy Spirit arrived on the day of Pentecost, who else in the OT had the gift of utterance? ... You are only fooling yourself, and doing others an injustice by saying you have an answer for it but won't show it, there is nothing to show Jason, Gods Word is the final authority, and it's stated clearly IF JESUS DOESNT GO, the Comforter will not come...

But go ahead, lie on me Jason, call me angry and upset after I just told you I wasn't about this convo. Accuse me all you like, I keep Gods light lit in all places the Spirit guides me to. I speak the truth in all situations. We can take a break if you like though, only seems to me you are running from a serious topic on the excuse that I'm " angry "..

Anyways love and peace to you brother Jason, I'll be praying for you...

Ps ... Now that I recall, I debated you also on the teachings of numbers " gematria " in the Bible... http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...ng-just-useless-filler-info-within-bible.html

 

[HeartThaw]

And I agree that there is significance, in numbers that are already present in the Bible and in prophecy but NOT changing Gods Word to numbers ... BIG difference, again John Dee, Kabbala, gematria, and changing letters to numbers teach this not Christ, now in context yes, numbers can have significance but not changing the Word to mean numbers, nay...

 

[HeartThaw]

The Holy Spirit was NOT given in the general eminent, effusion as promised in Joel 2:28

He was given in the Old Testament prophets and saints as He was given to the apostles after Pentecost. These were still special cases as prophets and saints. Numbers 11:5 Judges 3:10 Luke 1:15 Luke 1:41-67

In the Old Testament they had the first fruits of the Holy Spirit, but not in its fullness as the apostles and (all) others who choose Christ after Pentecost.


This is a hard topic and I'm glad a sister in Christ helped me bring more clarity to it, and hopefully we all have a little better understanding now, much love to that sister, and you Jason, and all who seek to understand the topic of the Holy Spirit.

 

[ZacharyB]

... it's stated clearly IF JESUS DOESNT GO, the Comforter will not come (John 14).

Yes, this is so obvious, how can anyone even argue about it?

The Holy Spirit is the "another Helper" (John 14) on earth
... Who replaces the original One on earth (Jesus).

All of this is in the context of the new covenant, of course.
The Holy Spirit coming inside believers replaces Jesus who was on the outside.

Then, of course, there's the Holy Spirit coming upon believers
when they are receiving the baptism with the Holy Spirit
(with the initial confirmation of speaking in tongues).

Uninformed people insist this upon baptism is the exact same experience
as when believers are baptized into Christ's body when they are born again
(just as they are born again today) >>>
"For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body
— whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free —
and have all been made to drink into one Spirit." (1 Cor 12:13)
But, of course, where did the tongues go to?

There are NO TONGUES when you are born-again, right?,
but are only present when Jesus Himself anoints you >>>
re: "the baptism with the Holy Spirit".
(I use the exact wording as used in the 4 gospels and epistles.)

 

[HeartThaw]

Yes, this is so obvious, how can anyone even argue about it?

The Holy Spirit is the "another Helper" (John 14) on earth
... Who replaces the original One on earth (Jesus).

All of this is in the context of the new covenant, of course.
The Holy Spirit coming inside believers replaces Jesus who was on the outside.

And Jason says he gets his spiritual truths after much praying! LOL
But, just from whom does he get his info?
He gets his pre-trib rapture false doctrine from those
who've made many millions from their books, movies, etc.

This is a hard subject, and please don't laugh at him especially when you are talking about prayer. Jason believes in Jesus, and has a good heart. I consider him a brother in Christ despite small differences, or even accusations. He is part right, because the Spirit was upon them in the Old Testament, prophets prophesied, and the saints were led by the Holy Spirit.

So Jesus didn't lie, when He said that " if He goes the comforter can not come ". He left it to the reader to get the full understanding. Again, certain people did have guidance from the Holy Spirit in the Old Testament but not everyone had access to it. The Holy Spirit was not in its fullness as promised until Jesus was resurrected; and everyone didn't have access to it until after He was resurrected.

1. It was only chosen people (special) who received the Holy Spirit in the OT
2. The Holy Spirit was not in its fullness until after the resurrection of Jesus.
3. Everyone did not have access to Him( Holy Spirit ) until after His resurrection.

These things aren't easy to understand, so I wasn't completely correct and neither was Jason. From my point of you we are learning. I praise God for shedding some light on the situation, bringing more clarity to what is being discussed through a sister in Christ. She was a big help here, all glory to God.

 

[ZacharyB]

This is a hard subject ...
These things aren't easy to understand

I do apologize, but IMO, they are very easy to understand.
Another example ... Do you understand my signature?

 

[HeartThaw]

I do apologize, but IMO, they are very easy to understand.
Another example ... Do you understand my signature?

Thank you for the humble apology, awesome. I think what we are discussing is hard to understand, though that's your opinion it's not. As for your signature ...yes, we can't serve two masters, either we will love the one and hate the other. The flesh serves sin and the spirit (once saved) wars with the flesh.. with help from His Holy Spirit, we are able to beat flesh and the bondage and strongholds of sin, that it is no longer our master. We become slaves to righteousness that's in Jesus Christ.

 

[LoveofTruth]

They cannot actually have been "born again" in the sense we normally use that term, because no one was saved PRIOR to Christ's sacrifice. The OT saints awaited the Lord's Resurrection for that.

Yes they were born again and had God dwelling in them (though they did not have the Holy Ghost baptism yet) we see this clearly when Peter said that Jesus was the Christ the Son of God

Matthew 16:16, 17 “And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. 17. And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.”

So clearly Peter has a revelation of who Jesus was in spirit by the Father. This evidenced that he was born again and had God dwelling in him as John says here,

1 John 5:1. Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.”

And

1 John 4;15. “Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.”

 

[LoveofTruth]

2 And were all baptized into Moses

That should be "unto" Moses (KJV), meaning unto or to Moses. This is a figurative way of showing the Old Covenant believers. But even Moses, Abraham, Noah, Abel, were born again and had Christ in then. Christ dwells in the heart by faith they all had faith., read Hebrews 11.

In Deuteronomy 30 we see that the word is nigh unto them (or close to them). This is speaking of the Word of Christ in them as Paul bring this out in Romans 10.

Paul also speaks of the mystery that was hid from ages ( it was there but hidden) which is Christ in you the hope of glory.

Abraham had the "seed" in him, which was Christ. His seed is the same as our seed which is Christ (Galatians 3)