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Old Testament saints were born again.

Discussion in 'Salvation (Soteriology)' started by Bible Highlighter, Apr 21, 2016.

  1. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    The words "circumcision of the heart" is just another way of saying "born again" in the Old Testament.

    Quick Review:

    Circumcision of the Heart in the Old Testament.

    (Which is obviously a spiritual renewal of one's heart):

    Deuteronomy 10:16

    "Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked."

    Deuteronomy 30:6

    "And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live."

    Jeremiah 4:4

    "Circumcise yourselves to the LORD, and take away the foreskins of your heart, ye men of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem: lest my fury come forth like fire, and burn that none can quench it, because of the evil of your doings."

    Ezekiel 44:9

    "Thus saith the Lord GOD; No stranger, uncircumcised in heart, nor uncircumcised in flesh, shall enter into my sanctuary, of any stranger that is among the children of Israel."

    Leviticus 26:41

    "And that I also have walked contrary unto them, and have brought them into the land of their enemies; if then their uncircumcised hearts be humbled, and they then accept of the punishment of their iniquity:."

    Jeremiah 9:26

    "Egypt, and Judah, and Edom, and the children of Ammon, and Moab, and all that are in the utmost corners, that dwell in the wilderness: for all these nations are uncircumcised, and all the house of Israel are uncircumcised in the heart."

    Having A New Heart in the Old Testament:

    Ezekiel 11:19

    "And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh"

    Ezekiel 18:31

    "Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?"

    Ezekiel 36:26

    "A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh."

    Circumcision of the Heart in the New Testament:

    Acts 7:51

    "Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye."

    Spiritual Circumcision in the New Testament:

    Philippians 3:3

    "For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh."

    Romans 2:28-29

    28 "For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:

    29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God."

    Colossians 2:11

    "In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ"


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    Last edited: Dec 18, 2018
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  2. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    Also, here is a clip of John chapter 3 taken from the Gospel of John which is verbatim from the GNT (Good New Translation):



    I mention this because Jesus implies in his speech to Nicodemus that he should have known about being born again.
    This was not a prophecy that Nicodemus should have known about. This was an actual reality for the Old Testament saint that Nicodemus should have been aware of. For Ezekiel 36:26-27 can be read from the perspective of the Israelite during the time of which he lived.


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    Last edited: Feb 9, 2019
  3. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    Also, Numbers 14:24 says of Caleb, "My servant Caleb, because he has a different Spirit and has followed me fully, I will bring into this land." And Numbers 27:18 says, "And the Lord said to Moses, 'Take Joshua the son of Nun, in whom is the spirit, and lay your hand upon him.'"

    So we see in Numbers 14, that Caleb has a different spirit, and we see in Numbers 27, that Joshua has the Spirit.

    Also, David says to God in Psalm 51 not to take His Holy Spirit from Him. Saul once had the Spirit God and then the Lord departed from Him and he committed suicide. So people have been spiritually regenerated (i.e. born again or circumcised in heart) both the Old Testament and the New Testament. All men are justified by faith thru out time in the Messaih, too. God doesn't change.


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  4. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    Also, when we read 1 Peter 1:11 it says, "the Spirit of Christ which was in them"

    Now, who do you suppose Peter was talking about? OT or NT believers here in this?

    See verse 10 (1 Peter 1:10).


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  5. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    ..It behoveth you to be born from above; the Spirit where he willeth doth blow....thus is every one who hath been born of the Spirit.
    John 3:7-8

    ...as in:

    26 But the Jerusalem that is above is free, which is our mother.
    27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; Break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: For more are the children of the desolate than of her that hath the husband.
    28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are children of promise.
    29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, so also it is now.
    Galatians 4:26-29


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  6. Albion

    Albion Facilitator

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    They cannot actually have been "born again" in the sense we normally use that term, because no one was saved PRIOR to Christ's sacrifice. The OT saints awaited the Lord's Resurrection for that.
     
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  7. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    If what you say is true, then we must conclude that Mary was just self deceived then when she said,

    "And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour"
    (Luke 1:47).​

    In other words, you cannot call someone your Savior if they are not saving you.


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  8. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    I mean, can a person circumcise their heart and live?
    What does circumcised in heart mean in the Old Testament?
    Is it just meaningless rubbish?
    Did not circumcision stand as a mark of one who was saved?

    Ezekiel 44:9 says that those who were uncircumcised in heart could not enter the sanctuary. How would one know if they were cicrumcised in heart or not? How could others know if this person was circumcised in heart or not? Truly this is talking about the person who has been changed or regenerated spiritually whereby they would show forth their new and dedicated life to God by their good fruits or deeds (i.e. how they talked and acted in front of others in a truly Godly way).


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  9. Albion

    Albion Facilitator

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    The issue is not "Who can save me?" Obviously, only God can do that. The questions are about "when?" and "how?"
     
  10. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    Mary did not sound like she was expecting God to save her at some future date. She did not say I will rejoice in God who will one day be my Savior. Mary said God was her Savior in the present tense. it was a present moment reality for her when she said it.


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  11. Greg J.

    Greg J. Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I tell you the truth: Among those born of women there has not risen anyone greater than John the Baptist; yet he who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he. (Matthew 11:11, 1984 NIV)
     
  12. Albion

    Albion Facilitator

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    Her words here are not considered to be peculiar or controversial by any churches, to the best of my knowledge. She quite reasonably WOULD have expected or hoped for God to save her...just like the Hebrews generally did.
     
  13. ZacharyB

    ZacharyB charismatic believer for 23 years

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    Yes, old Nic should have been aware of the Ezekiel prophecy
    about the future re: Messianic Christians (and Gentile believers)!

    The arrival of the precious Holy Spirit to indwell believers was a
    revolutionary thing and was to accompany the believer's new nature.
    A part of the glorious new and better covenant (ref: God).

    No one in the old covenant had the indwelling Holy Spirit.
    A couple of times, a prophet said God's Spirit was IN him.
    But, IMO, he was mistaken ... the Spirit came UPON the prophets,
    and occasionally kings like David.

    The idea that OT believers had the indwelling Holy Spirit
    is just as crazy as
    the idea that anyone will be raptured before the great tribulation of the antichrist.
     
  14. Soyeong

    Soyeong Well-Known Member

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    According to Jewish thought of the day, there were eight ways to be born again, of which Nicodemus qualified for six. The phrase "truly, truly, I say unto you" can also be translated as "amen, amen", which affirms what was just said, rather than emphasizes what is about to be said.

    http://www.hadavar.org/getting-to-know-god/you-must-be-born-again/
     
  15. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    This is very strange why folks don't accept what is plainly written in Scripture. It says right in Galatians 4:28-29 that Isaac was born of the Spirit.


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  16. ZacharyB

    ZacharyB charismatic believer for 23 years

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    "he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit"
    Isaac was born in accordance with the plan-wishes-blessings of God.
    He would be used of God because ...
    he would be following after God, doing His will, fulfilling His plan, and etc.

    All we're talking about is who had the Holy Spirit inside of them.
     
  17. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    I understand that is how other people may rationalize it, but it just does not do justice to the text.

    Also, how can God circumcise a person's heart without them dying?


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  18. Arsenios

    Arsenios Russian Orthodox Winter Baptism, Valaam Monastery, Supporter

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    I did another thread on this, and came to a conclusion in it, that there is indeed Salvation in the Old Testament - You need go no further than David writing in Psalm 51 begging the Lord to "Restore unto me the Joy of Thy Salvation, and renew a right spirit within me..." So there IS Salvation in the OT, and it IS the Salvation of the Holy Spirit suffusing a person and abiding in and on him...

    And there is no difference between this Salvation and the visitation and abidance of the Holy Spirit in the New Testament, which was given to Cornelius and the Apostles on Pentecost... And it is this Salvation that is given to many Christians to this day, where they walk in the Holy Spirit dwelling within them...

    It is NOT, however, Salvation in Christ, which is something else entirely...

    And THAT Salvation I am reserving for the other thread...

    But you are right - There IS Salvation in the OT...

    Arsenios
     
  19. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    Paul says,

    1 "Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;

    4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ." (1 Corinthians 10:1, 1 Corinthians 10:4).

    Jesus says,

    "But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life."
    (John 4:14).

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  20. Arsenios

    Arsenios Russian Orthodox Winter Baptism, Valaam Monastery, Supporter

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    You omitted vss 2 and 3 -
    These are critical and important and essential:

    1 "Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant,
    how that all our fathers were under the cloud,
    and all passed through the sea;


    2 And were all baptized into Moses
    in the cloud
    and
    in the sea

    3 And all ate
    the same
    Spiritual Meat;


    4 And all drank the same Spiritual drink:
    for they drank from that Spiritual Rock
    that followed them:
    and that Rock was Christ."

    #2 is the key, you see, and you see it in the Parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man, where, after he died, Lazarus was comfortably reposing in the chest of Moses, having eaten of the Spiritual Meat of suffering, after having been baptized into Mose...
    Christians, you see, are NOT Baptized into Moses,

    under the cloud,
    and in the Red Sea


    But instead Christ was baptized by John in the Jordan...
    And WE are Baptized into Christ...

    Whereby we have put on Christ...
    Wherein we have become:
    A New Creation in Christ.


    Gal 3:27
    For as many of you
    As have been baptized into Christ
    Have put on Christ.

    THAT, you see, IS our New Creation IN Christ...
    And only by being Baptized INTO Christ...
    Are we afterwards IN Christ...

    No rocket science here...

    Yes - Only the incarnate Christ can make this claim...
    Prior to His Death and Resurrection...
    INTO which WE are Baptized...
    ALL were Baptized INTO MOSES
    In the Dark Cloud...
    And in the Red Sea...

    Arsenios
     
    Last edited: May 8, 2016
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