Old Testament saints were born again.

[BBAS 64]

DA Carson addresses the question:

Don Carson on How Old Testament Saints Were Saved

 

[Timothy416]

I did another thread on this, and came to a conclusion in it, that there is indeed Salvation in the Old Testament - You need go no further than David writing in Psalm 51 begging the Lord to "Restore unto me the Joy of Thy Salvation, and renew a right spirit within me..." So there IS Salvation in the OT, and it IS the Salvation of the Holy Spirit suffusing a person and abiding in and on him...

And there is no difference between this Salvation and the visitation and abidance of the Holy Spirit in the New Testament, which was given to Cornelius and the Apostles on Pentecost... And it is this Salvation that is given to many Christians to this day, where they walk in the Holy Spirit dwelling within them...

It is NOT, however, Salvation in Christ, which is something else entirely...

And THAT Salvation I am reserving for the other thread...

But you are right - There IS Salvation in the OT...

Arsenios

Salvation through a righteousness/justification of obeying the law? Hmmmmm, I don't see that myself:

And if we are careful to obey all this law before the Lord our God, as he has commanded us, that will be our righteousness.
Deut6:25

 

[Timothy416]

It is identical to the indwelling in the NT...

On the last and greatest day of the festival, Jesus stood and said in a loud voice, “Let anyone who is thirsty come to me and drink.38 Whoever believes in me, as Scripture has said, rivers of living water will flow from within them. 39 By this he meant the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were later to receive. Up to that time the Spirit had not been given, since Jesus had not yet been glorified.
John7:37-39

 

[Bible Highlighter]

the new covenant consist of being born again of water and the spirit. the spirit was not poured out until the day of Pentecost. This is when the new covenant came into effect. the guy on the cross was not under the new covenant as the holy ghost was not yet poured out and Jesus had not even resurrected yet.

"But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now." (Galatians 4:29).

In context, Isaac (who is born after the Spirit) was being persecuted by Ishmael.

28 "Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.
29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.
30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman." (Galatians 4:28-30).​

"But Sarah saw that the son whom Hagar the Egyptian had borne to Abraham was mocking her son," (Genesis 21:9) (BSB).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

the new covenant consist of being born again of water and the spirit. the spirit was not poured out until the day of Pentecost. This is when the new covenant came into effect. the guy on the cross was not under the new covenant as the holy ghost was not yet poured out and Jesus had not even resurrected yet.

Being born of the Spirit and water is nothing new.

The event at Pentecost was unique because they spoke in different tongues and were able to understand each other. The disciples already received the Spirit before Pentecost (See John 20:22). Pentecost was a fulfillment of OT Scripture of the early stages of the New Covenant that was made with God's people. However, the New Covenant officially began at Christ's death:

“By abolishing in His [own crucified] flesh the enmity [caused by] the Law with its decrees and ordinances [which He annulled]; that He from the two might create in Himself one new man [one new quality of humanity out of the two], so making peace.” (Ephesians 2:15) (AMPC).

16 “For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.” (Hebrews 9:16-17).

27 “And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it;
28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.” (Matthew 26:27-28).

50 “Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.
51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; “ (Matthew 27:20-51).​

But being born of the Spirit is nothing new. The words "circumcision of the heart" is just another way of saying "born again" in the Old Testament (or Old Covenant).

Quick Review:
Circumcision of the Heart in the Old Testament.
(Which is obviously a spiritual renewal of one's heart):

Deuteronomy 10:16

"Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked."

Deuteronomy 30:6

"And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live."

Jeremiah 4:4

"Circumcise yourselves to the LORD, and take away the foreskins of your heart, ye men of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem: lest my fury come forth like fire, and burn that none can quench it, because of the evil of your doings."

Ezekiel 44:9

"Thus saith the Lord GOD; No stranger, uncircumcised in heart, nor uncircumcised in flesh, shall enter into my sanctuary, of any stranger that is among the children of Israel."

Leviticus 26:41

"And that I also have walked contrary unto them, and have brought them into the land of their enemies; if then their uncircumcised hearts be humbled, and they then accept of the punishment of their iniquity:."

Jeremiah 9:26

"Egypt, and Judah, and Edom, and the children of Ammon, and Moab, and all that are in the utmost corners, that dwell in the wilderness: for all these nations are uncircumcised, and all the house of Israel are uncircumcised in the heart."​

Having A New Heart in the Old Testament:

Ezekiel 11:19

"And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh"

Ezekiel 18:31

"Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?"

Ezekiel 36:26

"A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh."​

Circumcision of the Heart in the New Testament:

Acts 7:51

"Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye."​

Spiritual Circumcision in the New Testament:

Philippians 3:3

"For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh."​

Romans 2:28-29

28 "For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God."

Colossians 2:11

"In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ"​

Being born again of water is not talking about baptism, although that is the popular mindless cookie cutter answer by some churches today.

The Scriptures actually tells us what being born of water means in John 3:5. The Bible talks about how "water" is related to the Word (i.e. Scripture). The Bible talks about how we are born of the Word.

25 "...even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish." (Ephesians 5:25-27).

"Wherewithal shall a young man cleanse his way? by taking heed thereto according to thy word." (Psalms 119:9).

18 "Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower.
19 When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart." (Matthew 13:18-19).

"But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty." (Matthew 13:23).

"So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God." (Romans 10:17).

23 "Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
24 For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away:
25 But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you." (1 Peter 1:23-25).​

In Romans 4, we see that Abraham was saved first by faith without the deeds of the Law; But later he was saved by his works of faith (like circumcision - Genesis 17:14). Abraham had to first receive God's Word into his heart and believe. This is being born again of water. The water represents Jesus (the Word of God). His words bring life or they can bring judgment. Hence, why baptism is a like picture (or metaphor) of the judgment on the world by a global flood. We are buried in Christ in baptism as a like picture (or metaphor).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

The indwelling spirit promised to come with the New Covenant in Jeramiah 31 and 32 was available before Pentecost as Jesus appeared to the disciples and breathed on them, they received His indwelling presence - John 20:22. The giving of the Spirit at Pentecost was an empowering for ministry the same was as Jesus received as a permanent anointing to empower His ministry. Salvation comes with the indwelling of Jesus in the New Covenant. Empowering for ministry is a different issue.

Blessings,

Carl Emerson.

I agree. But I also believe Jesus indwelled the OT saint so as to give them salvation, too. Many of them may not have known Christ's name like NT saints did, but they abided in the Lord as a part of salvation none the less.

"And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ." (1 Corinthians 10:4).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I had said...The indwelling spirit promised to come with the New Covenant in Jeramiah 31 and 32 was available before Pentecost as Jesus appeared to the disciples and breathed on them, they received His indwelling presence - John 20:22. The giving of the Spirit at Pentecost was an empowering for ministry the same was as Jesus received as a permanent anointing to empower His ministry. Salvation comes with the indwelling of Jesus in the New Covenant. Empowering for ministry is a different issue.

And you replied as above...

Can I point out that in Jeremiah 31 and 32 we see prophesies of a New Covenant to come in which God's Spirit would indwell the believers sometime in the future.

If this covenant was already in place as you suggest, the prophesy would be false.

Clearly this is not so, the OT believers did not require the indwelling presence to be saved, their salvation came via the cross in response to faith in the Father. The cross is a timeless event which spans all history past and future through which the faithful believers are saved.

Blessings

Carl Emerson.

I am not suggesting the baptism of the Spirit at Pentecost was available prior to Pentecost. Jesus breathed the Spirit upon the disciples and indwelled them before Pentecost. But they did not have the ministry gifts yet. David said to the Lord not to take the Holy Spirit from him. That is exactly what he meant and said. David had the Spirit just as the New Covenant believer can have the Spirit. Also, how were men saved in the Old Testament? Was it also not by Jesus? What does 1 Corinthians 10:3-4 even mean to you? Was not Christ that Rock that the Israelites spiritually drank of?

Jesus said to Nicodemus in John 3:3 Unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God. Nicodemus would have known about 'circumcision of the heart' being well versed in the OT.
Jesus was clearly presenting something that Nicodemus knew nothing about and said exactly that.

To suggest that being born again was simply circumcision of the heart makes no sense of this passage.

Again in Jer 31 and 32 we see prophesies regarding a New Covenant unique in the fact that His Spirit would in the future indwell hearts and the fear of Him would seal them against disobedience. This happens when we are born again.

Blessings

Carl Emerson.

No. Jesus said very clearly that Nicodemus should have known about being born again.

8 "...so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be
10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?" (John 3:8-10).

Also, here is a clip of John chapter 3 taken from the Gospel of John which is verbatim from the GNT (Good New Translation):

I mention this because Jesus implies in his speech to Nicodemus that he should have known about being born again. Jesus says that Nicodemus is a great teacher of Israel, and he does not know about this teaching about being born again (When he should have known about it because "circumcision of the heart" is just another phrase or saying for "born again.").

Also, what does "Circumcision of the Heart" actually mean in your view? A person had to be circumcised in heart in order to enter the sanctuary (See Ezekiel 44:9). Did they physically cut into their hearts? How is that possible? They would have died. So it is speaking in spiritual terms that their hearts were changed (i.e. They were born again spiritually of the heart).

 

[Carl Emerson]

Seems we cant take this discussion further fruitfully, appreciate your kind patience with me.

Blessings,

Carl Emerson.

 

[BCsenior]

Sorry, bro' Jason ...
The Holy Spirit didn't come inside believers in the OT.
Most of the prophets said He came UPON them.
A couple were confused and said He came IN them.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Not so, brother.

David said,

"Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me." (Psalms 51:11).​

Stephen said to this to the Pharisees,

"Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye." (Acts of the Apostles 7:51).​

Paul said this about the Israelites
who passed through the red sea,

"And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ." (1 Corinthians 10:4).​

If you were an OT saint, you could not enter the temple unless your heart was circumcised.

"Thus saith the Lord GOD; No stranger, uncircumcised in heart, nor uncircumcised in flesh, shall enter into my sanctuary, of any stranger that is among the children of Israel." (Ezekiel 44:9).​

How can you survive circumcision of the heart?
Surely this was in reference to a believer who had a changed heart spiritually (i.e. They were born again).

 

[BCsenior]

Jason,
If a demon can "sit on your shoulder and talk to you",
so can an angel (or even the Holy Spirit).
None of your favorite verses say the Spirit was INSIDE.
You said ...
How can you survive circumcision of the heart?
Surely this was in reference to a believer
who had a changed heart spiritually
(i.e. They were born again).

IMO, born again (John 3:3) means to receive
the Holy Spirit INSIDE, as in a second birth:
a spiritual birth, as opposed to a physical one.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Further to this, I tried to point out to Jason that Jeremiah prophesied in 31:31 following and 32:37 following, that the New Covenant would uniquely involve believers receiving His presence within.

Blessings,

Carl Emerson.

 

[LoveofTruth]

Jason,
If a demon can "sit on your shoulder and talk to you",
so can an angel (or even the Holy Spirit).
None of your favorite verses say the Spirit was INSIDE.
You said ...
How can you survive circumcision of the heart?
Surely this was in reference to a believer
who had a changed heart spiritually
(i.e. They were born again).

IMO, born again (John 3:3) means to receive
the Holy Spirit INSIDE, as in a second birth:
a spiritual birth, as opposed to a physical one.

All old trstament saints were born again and had the Spirit of Christ in them.
There is a Trinity and we read of the Spirit of the Father speaking in them Matthew 10 before the cross, and of the Spirit of Christ in them as well before the cross.

Even Jesus said

“ John 15:4-6 “ Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. 5. I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. 6. If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.”

 

[Carl Emerson]

Some serious non-sense going on here....

It seems the tread was created to push a theory rather than open a serious discussion to work towards a better understanding of scripture.

Reader beware...

Blessings,

Carl Emerson.

 

[BCsenior]

Jeremiah prophesied in 31:31 following and 32:37 following, that the New Covenant would uniquely involve believers receiving His presence within.

Kudos to you for the Jeremiah 31:31+.

The indwelling Holy Spirit is one of the major reasons
why the new covenant is so much better than the old.

 

[LoveofTruth]

Some serious non-sense going on here....

It seems the tread was created to push a theory rather than open a serious discussion to work towards a better understanding of scripture.

Reader beware...

Blessings,

Carl Emerson.

What do you mean ?

 

[LoveofTruth]

Further to this, I tried to point out to Jason that Jeremiah prophesied in 31:31 following and 32:37 following, that the New Covenant would uniquely involve believers receiving His presence within.

Blessings,

Carl Emerson.

Christ dwells in the heart by faith. All Old Testament saints had faith (Hebrews 11) if any man have not the Spirit of Christ he is none of His. This would include all OT saints as well.

Peter said that Jesus was the Christ the Son of God. By saying this he showed that God was in him and that he was born again. As scripture shows.

Matthew 16 - 16. And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.”

1 John 4:15. Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.’

1 John 5:1. Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.”

And so it is clear that Peter manifested that he was born again.

The Holy Ghost baptism was not yet given but the Father and the Son were there.

 

[New Birth]

1 Peter 1:10-11 Of which salvation the prophets have inquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you: 11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify,...

 

[LoveofTruth]

They cannot actually have been "born again" in the sense we normally use that term, because no one was saved PRIOR to Christ's sacrifice. The OT saints awaited the Lord's Resurrection for that.

All OT saints were saved (born again)

We see many examples in scripture of this, here’s just a small sample before the cross,

John 17:12. While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.”

Luke 7:50. And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace.”

Luke 19:9,10 “And Jesus said unto him, This day is salvation come to this house, forsomuch as he also is a son of Abraham. 10. For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.”

Psalm 37:39. But the salvation of the righteous is of the LORD: he is their strength in the time of trouble. 40. And the LORD shall help them and deliver them: he shall deliver them from the wicked, and save them, because they trust in him.”

Psalm 51:10-12 “Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me. 11. Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me. 12. Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit.”

And Hebrews 11

 

[LoveofTruth]

You omitted vss 2 and 3 -
These are critical and important and essential:

1 "Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant,
how that all our fathers were under the cloud,
and all passed through the sea;

2 And were all baptized into Moses
in the cloud
and
in the sea

3 And all ate
the same
Spiritual Meat;

4 And all drank the same Spiritual drink:
for they drank from that Spiritual Rock
that followed them:
and that Rock was Christ."

#2 is the key, you see, and you see it in the Parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man, where, after he died, Lazarus was comfortably reposing in the chest of Moses, having eaten of the Spiritual Meat of suffering, after having been baptized into Mose...
Christians, you see, are NOT Baptized into Moses,
under the cloud,
and in the Red Sea

But instead Christ was baptized by John in the Jordan...
And WE are Baptized into Christ...
Whereby we have put on Christ...
Wherein we have become:
A New Creation in Christ.

Gal 3:27
For as many of you
As have been baptized into Christ
Have put on Christ.

THAT, you see, IS our New Creation IN Christ...
And only by being Baptized INTO Christ...
Are we afterwards IN Christ...
No rocket science here...



Yes - Only the incarnate Christ can make this claim...
Prior to His Death and Resurrection...
INTO which WE are Baptized...
ALL were Baptized INTO MOSES
In the Dark Cloud...
And in the Red Sea...

Arsenios

They were baptized “UNTO” Moses, not into Moses. This unto may reflect the OT covenant though God could still work in thier hearts in mystery.

1 Corinthians 10:2-4 “And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; 3. And did all eat the same spiritual meat; 4. And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.”