Old Testament Diet - Was God being a Bully?

[Awakened Sin]

If that's the diet you want; go for it.



I like bacon with macaroni cheese and roast pork with apple sauce.

I like your taste, no pun intended.

 

[Rick Otto]

God gave the Hebrews the dietary laws to keep them healthy. Before that people were eating bugs and anything they could. The laws were not for bullying but for their health. Today our food supply is completely contaminated so basically we have gone back to eating the way the people did before the dietary laws were written, but we just do it now in the name of science.

We should wise up, educate ourselves on what is really in our food, and stay away from it for the sake of our health.

Yeep.
I have six hens in my backyard. Haven't started serious gardening yet, but get most my food from urban farmers.
Chemical free. We barter, too. Art and music are valuable commodities in a community context.
I read and knew about the importance of what I was putting in my mouth.
My wife caught on a few years ago, so I suffer far less anxiety while eating. The thought of all the chemical fertilizers, herbicides, steroids, and antibiotics I was ingesting would ruin my appetite.

 

[GillDouglas]

I try to keep my diet as biblical as I can...

1. No pork
2. I deem beef and buffalo as biblical. I love making dishes with buffalo such as spaghetti
3. Fresh fruit and vegetables are good!
<snip>

This is what I follow in keeping my diet "biblical": "Every moving thing that lives shall be food for you. And as I gave you the green plants, I give you everything." (Genesis 9:3) "And there came a voice to him: “Rise, Peter; kill and eat.” But Peter said, “By no means, Lord; for I have never eaten anything that is common or unclean.” And the voice came to him again a second time, “What God has made clean, do not call common.” (Acts 10:13-15) "it is not what goes into the mouth that defiles a person, but what comes out of the mouth; this defiles a person.” (Matthew 15:11) "So, whether you eat or drink, or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God." (1 Corinthians 10:31) For the diets of others: "As for the one who is weak in faith, welcome him, but not to quarrel over opinions. One person believes he may eat anything, while the weak person eats only vegetables. Let not the one who eats despise the one who abstains, and let not the one who abstains pass judgment on the one who eats, for God has welcomed him. Who are you to pass judgment on the servant of another? It is before his own master that he stands or falls. And he will be upheld, for the Lord is able to make him stand." (Romans 14:1-4)

 

[Incredible Transformation]

Yeep.
I have six hens in my backyard. Haven't started serious gardening yet, but get most my food from urban farmers.
Chemical free. We barter, too. Art and music are valuable commodities in a community context.
I read and knew about the importance of what I was putting in my mouth.
My wife caught on a few years ago, so I suffer far less anxiety while eating. The thought of all the chemical fertilizers, herbicides, steroids, and antibiotics I was ingesting would ruin my appetite.

My husband and I got into the organic lifestyle after I started losing 100 pounds. I have managed to keep it off for six years now. I can't go back to eating junk anymore. It really makes me sick.

 

[joshua 1 9]

Plus no big Macs!

Big macs at 480 calories and 28 grans of fat will kill you quicker then you think, although its a better choice then the quarter pounder that has 780 calories and 40 grams of fat. The daily limit on fat is 60 grams a day. If you go over that then it becomes a health hazard to your coronary system. At 1380 grams of salt that is more then my personal daily allowance. That much salt will cause water retention, swelling and bloating. Not even to begin to talk about the toxins in processed food being a high risk for cancer.

 

[joshua 1 9]

This is what I follow in keeping my diet "biblical"

Science is a lot more strict then the Bible now a days. One leading cause of food poisoning at the emergency room is from shelled fish. This is of course banned in the Bible. Most people that live to be 80 say all things in moderation. It is the excess of consumption that causes the most problems.

 

[Soyeong]

God gave that covenant to the Hebrews, who were his people, whom he had freed from slavery. They were to show themselves to be his people by being holy - or set apart - and live holy lives. That meant worshipping him as the only God, not having anything to do with idols, following his rules for right living and offering sacrifices when they sinned, not touching unclean people who were bleeding or had skin complaints or dead people, not eating unclean foods, wearing clothes of pure cotton, not mixed fabrics, and keeping themselves pure by marrying only other Hebrews; no one from outside their faith. That is how they were to live in gratitude to a holy God who had called them and made them holy.

Is God still holy today? Of course. Does he have people he has called to be his own? Of course - all those who believe that he sent his Son to be the spotless Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world; all those who believe that, through him, they have been freed from the slavery of sin and death. Has he commanded us to live in such a way so as to reflect his light, his glory and our relationship with him? Of course. But the latter does not include going back to the OT laws and putting ourselves under them, or in bondage to them. It may be very good to follow the dietary laws, but it's not a command for us.

1 Peter 1:14-16 As obedient children, do not be conformed to the passions of your former ignorance, 15 but as he who called you is holy, you also be holy in all your conduct, 16 since it is written, “You shall be holy, for I am holy.”

What did it mean to an Israelite to have a holy conduct? What did it mean to the author of 1 Peter to have a holy conduct? If the answer to those questions is different, then why did verse 16 quote from the OT where it talks about keeping dietary laws? How can we have a holy conduct while at the same time disregarding God's holy instructions for how to do that? It is just as important for Gentiles to have a holy and righteous conduct as it is for Jews, so I see no good reason for why you say God's laws are excluded. We can not reflect His light if we refuse to do His will.

God's laws define what sin is as we are not permitted to sin, so we should not ignore them. It is not God's laws that put us in bondage, but rather it is sin in violation of God's laws that put us in bondage. We have been set free from sin so that we can be free to become slaves of obedience, leading to righteousness, and slaves of righteousness, leading to sanctification (Romans 6:15-19). True freedom is the freedom to do what is righteous in accordance with God's righteous laws.

Jesus gave us lots of commands, teaching and instruction on how to live - following strict food laws that were not given to Gentiles was not part of that.

John 7:16 "My teaching is not My own," Jesus replied. "It comes from Him who sent Me.

Jesus didn't teach anything different from what the Father had commanded and Gentiles were never exempted for having to obey the Father. It is only by faith that we can uphold God's law (Romans 3:31) and receive it as they were intended, as a divine privilege and a delight, as the Psalmists understood (Psalms 1:2, Psalms 119) and as Paul understood (Romans 7:22).

And the statement in Mark makes it clear that by saying this, Jesus declared all foods to be clean. Nowhere did Jesus insist that all Gentiles follow Jewish dietary laws after they believed in him.

Mark 7:19 Because it doesn’t go into his heart but into his stomach, and then into the sewer, thereby expelling all foods.” (ISV)

Mark 7:19 because it doth not enter into his heart, but into the belly, and into the drain it doth go out, purifying all the meats.' (YLT)

There is some debate over how Mark 7:19 should be translated, but it should be noted that there is no "and thus he declared" in the Greek. I think the ISV expresses the idea behind the verse the clearest because the topic is about kosher food that is eaten with unwashed hands becoming common or defiled and then making the person who eats it common or defiled. So Jesus was talking about the digestive process of how such food is eaten and expelled from the body without entering the heart to show that their man-made ritual purity law was insignificant and that their concern for ritual purity was out of balance with their concern for moral purity. As I said, Matthew 15:20 makes it clear that he never switched topics from man-made ritual purity laws to God's dietary laws.

Furthermore, just had just finished lambasting the Pharisees for being hypocrites for setting aside the commands of God to follow their own traditions, so if Jesus had set aside the commands of God just a few verse later, then that would have made him an even bigger hypocrite. On top of that, the Bible warns against anyone who performed signs and wonders, but taught them not to follow God's commands (Deuteronomy 13:4-6), so if Jesus had done that, then he would have disqualified himself as the Messiah and for once given his critics a legitimate reason to try to stone him. They wouldn't have needed to find false witnesses at his trial, but no one even mentioned this incident at his trial. It would have caused an uproar, but not one even seemed to have noticed. This would have been a major doctrinal issue, not something relegated to an aside comment in a discussion that wasn't even about dietary laws.

The early church did not stop being Jews after they witnessed the resurrection and received the Spirit at Pentecost, so if they DID observe all the food laws (there is no Scripture to say this) it may have been because it took a while to understand what their new faith meant.

I've seen estimates that Peter's vision was between 7-17 years after Christ's ascension, so up until that point God's assembly was entirely comprised of either Jews or Jewish proselytes. Paul and James took steps in Acts 21 to show that they had not teaching Jews to forsake God's law and Paul claimed that he believed everything laid down by the Law and written in the Prophets, so if they weren't teaching that, then who was? Our faith in the Messiah does not mean that we can forsake his laws, but just the opposite, so it was not those Jews who did not understand what they faith meant, but rather it's you. It is the carnal mind that does not submit to God's laws (Romans 8:7).

They met on the first day of the week, for example, to break bread.

The Sabbath lasted from sundown on Friday evening to sundown on Saturday evening and the first interval between Sabbaths was the Havdalah service immediately following the Sabbath on Saturday evening. This practice was nothing new or out of the ordinary. Paul had been preaching from evening to midnight, not all day, and was leaving on what we'd call Sunday to travel. Even if they had gathered to eat together on what we would call Sunday, that wouldn't mean anything special because they had the freedom to eat together on any day of the week. They still continued to keep the Sabbath all throughout Acts.

At the council of Jerusalem, James sent a letter to Gentile believers telling them to abstain from blood, (not pork) and from meat offered to idols. Yet only a few years later, Paul, who took this letter to the Gentiles, told them that eating meat offered to idols did not make them unclean, that an idol was nothing and that the kingdom of God is not a matter of food and drink. This is a former Pharisee talking.

If you hold hard that those four laws were an exhaustive list of every of everything that would be required of Gentiles, then that would exclude the teachings of Jesus and other laws commanded in the NT. On the other hand, if you say that other laws were obviously included, then I'd agree with you. The kingdom of God is not a matter of food and drink insofar as the context is about disputable matters of opinion (Romans 14:1) rather than the commands of God. Man's opinion about what is food must yield to what God has given to be eaten as food, so God's dietary laws weren't even being discussed in Romans 14.

1 Corinthians 10:21-22 You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons. You cannot partake of the table of the Lord and the table of demons. 22 Shall we provoke the Lord to jealousy? Are we stronger than he?

But we don't have a commandment to keep them - not the food and hygiene laws anyway.

More accurately, Gentiles don't have a commandment not to keep them. It should be relatively straightforward that if you join a religion, then you follow its laws. It should be relatively straightforward that if you're told not to sin and the Bible says eating unclean animals is a sin, then you are not to eat unclean animals. It should be relatively straightforward that if we are followers of Christ, then we should follow his example of obedience. WWJD? He'd obey God's Torah and make disciples to teach them to do the same.

 

[Soyeong]

Chill out. Our redemption required us experiencing the futility of self-redemption.
So, it was bullying, but it was the right thing to do.
Your objection is simply about terminology.
It was holy, righteous, and good bullying.
Don't let perfect become the enemy of good.

Chilling is good, misunderstanding the purpose of the law is bad. The purpose was never even about self-redemption let alone the futility of it, but rather it was primarily to instruct us in how to have a holy, righteous, and good conduct. It was about how God wants His people to live, not about what we must do in order to become justified. Trying to redeem ourselves through keeping the law is in fact a legalistic perversion of the law, which Jesus came to correct.

 

[Soyeong]

"And there came a voice to him: “Rise, Peter; kill and eat.” But Peter said, “By no means, Lord; for I have never eaten anything that is common or unclean.” And the voice came to him again a second time, “What God has made clean, do not call common.” (Acts 10:13-15)

Acts 10:10-16 And he became hungry and wanted something to eat, but while they were preparing it, he fell into a trance 11 and saw the heavens opened and something like a great sheet descending, being let down by its four corners upon the earth. 12 In it were all kinds of animals and reptiles and birds of the air. 13 And there came a voice to him: “Rise, Peter; kill and eat.” 14 But Peter said, “By no means, Lord; for I have never eaten anything that is common or unclean.” 15 And the voice came to him again a second time, “What God has made clean, do not call common.” 16 This happened three times, and the thing was taken up at once to heaven.

All kinds of animals were being let down in the sheet, so there was a mix of clean and unclean animals. Why didn't Peter obey both God's command in the Torah and God's command in his vision by simply killing and eating one of the clean animals? Why did he object? The answer is that the Pharisees had man-made ritual purity laws that said that something that was clean that came into contact with something that was unclean would become defiled or common (See Mark 7:3-4). So because all of the animals we bundled together all of the clean animals there had become common, thus when Peter objected by saying that he had never eaten anything that was common or unclean, he was saying that he had never violated the man-made ritual purity laws or God's dietary laws. By refusing to kill and eat a clean animal, Peter was disobeying God to obey man. God's rebuke was not in regard to Peter's use of the word "unclean", but rather He said not to label anything clean as common, so God was only referring to the clean animals and was not making a statement about dietary laws.

To confirm this, Peter gave the interpretation of his vision three times in Acts 10:28, Acts 11:12, and Acts 15:9, and not once did he say anything about dietary laws. The fact that he was perplexed after his vision showed that he did not accept it at face value. If you were given a vision where innocent children were let down and you were given a gun and heard a voice say to shoot and kill, then your response would be the same as Peter's because you consider the 6th commandment to be a basic commandment of God.

Hosea 2:23 and I will sow her for myself in the land. And I will have mercy on No Mercy,[h] and I will say to Not My People,‘You are my people’; and he shall say, ‘You are my God.’”

Amos 3:7 “For the Lord God does nothing without revealing his secret to his servants the prophets.

Peter was not receiving anything new, just something that was already established. What sense does it make to inject our own interpretation and ignore the interpretation given three times? The implication is clear that Peter and the disciples continued to keep God's dietary laws. It would have been huge news to them that God's laws had been overturned and that unclean animals were now considered food, so why is there no mention of it? Simply, because that wasn't the purpose of the vision, but rather it was to get them out of the influence of the Pharisees and teachers of the law.

"it is not what goes into the mouth that defiles a person, but what comes out of the mouth; this defiles a person.” (Matthew 15:11)

Matthew 15:20 These are what defile a person. But to eat with unwashed hands does not defile anyone.”

The context of Mark 7 and Matthew 15 is again about ritual purity laws that said that food that was kosher became defiled or common if it were eaten with unwashed hands and then caused the person who ate it to become common or defiled. What Jesus said at the end of the discussion in verse 20 confirms that the topic never switched from man-made ritual purity laws to God's dietary laws. Consistently throughout the Bible man's laws are rejected while God's laws are upheld.

"So, whether you eat or drink, or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God." (1 Corinthians 10:31)

Just how exactly does disobeying God bring glory to Him?

This is what I follow in keeping my diet "biblical": "Every moving thing that lives shall be food for you. And as I gave you the green plants, I give you everything." (Genesis 9:3) For the diets of others:

God's command for Noah to bring clean and unclean animals onto the Ark assumes prior knowledge that Noah had already been given instructions about clean and unclean animals. Unclean animals were not considered to be food and would have been an obvious exception, just as poisonous animals or plants were. If you have a guest staying over and you tell them that they can eat anything they find in the fridge, you are not expecting them to eat your tupperware and shelves because those are obvious exceptions. When we say "all" it often qualified by obvious exceptions and there are a number of examples in the Bible where "all" is clearly qualified. God was not waffling back and forth about whether eating unclean animals was an abomination.

"As for the one who is weak in faith, welcome him, but not to quarrel over opinions. One person believes he may eat anything, while the weak person eats only vegetables. Let not the one who eats despise the one who abstains, and let not the one who abstains pass judgment on the one who eats, for God has welcomed him. Who are you to pass judgment on the servant of another? It is before his own master that he stands or falls. And he will be upheld, for the Lord is able to make him stand." (Romans 14:1-4)

The first verse makes it clear that the context of the chapter is about quarreling over opinions, not about whether or not to obey God's commands. Meat that had been sacrificed to idols was often later sold on the market, someone at a community meal who didn't know where the meat had come from might be of the opinion that only vegetables should be eaten (14:2). They were judging those who did eat everything at the meal and were in turn being resented (14:3). The only time that God commanded fasting was during Yom Kippur, but as a matter of human opinion, it had become a common practice to fast twice a week and to commemorate certain days. People who esteemed certain days were judging others for not fasting and were in turn being resented (14:5-6). We are not to keep God's Sabbath and Festivals because man esteemed those days over others, but because God did and commanded us to keep them, so whether you fast on other days or on which days you fast is a disputable matter of human opinion, but whether you fast on Yom Kippur is a matter of obedience to God.

 

[joshua 1 9]

Gal2 11 But when Cephas came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he stood condemned. 12 For prior to the coming of certain men from James, he used to eat with the Gentiles; but when they came, he began to withdraw and hold himself aloof, fearing the party of the circumcision.…

 

[Soyeong]

Gal2 11 But when Cephas came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he stood condemned. 12 For prior to the coming of certain men from James, he used to eat with the Gentiles; but when they came, he began to withdraw and hold himself aloof, fearing the party of the circumcision.…

Growing up, I had always been told that this was about dietary laws, but upon closer inspection, that's just something that's been injected into the text that's not actually there. What they happened to be eating has no relevance whatsoever to what was happening and I see no good reason to assume that it was anything other than kosher.

 

[SinnerInTheHands]

I try to keep my diet as biblical as I can...

1. No pork
2. I deem beef and buffalo as biblical. I love making dishes with buffalo such as spaghetti
3. Fresh fruit and vegetables are good!

"The next day, as they were on their journey and approaching the city, Peter went up on the housetop about the sixth hour to pray. And he became hungry and wanted something to eat, but while they were preparing it, he fell into a trance and saw the heavens opened and something like a great sheet descending, being let down by its four corners upon the earth. In it were all kinds of animals and reptiles and birds of the air. And there came a voice to him: “Rise, Peter; kill and eat.” But Peter said, “By no means, Lord; for I have never eaten anything that is common or unclean.” And the voice came to him again a second time, “What God has made clean, do not call common.” This happened three times, and the thing was taken up at once to heaven." [Acts 10:9-16]

 

[Soyeong]

"The next day, as they were on their journey and approaching the city, Peter went up on the housetop about the sixth hour to pray. And he became hungry and wanted something to eat, but while they were preparing it, he fell into a trance and saw the heavens opened and something like a great sheet descending, being let down by its four corners upon the earth. In it were all kinds of animals and reptiles and birds of the air. And there came a voice to him: “Rise, Peter; kill and eat.” But Peter said, “By no means, Lord; for I have never eaten anything that is common or unclean.” And the voice came to him again a second time, “What God has made clean, do not call common.” This happened three times, and the thing was taken up at once to heaven." [Acts 10:9-16]

Please see Post #29 http://www.christianforums.com/thre...od-being-a-bully.7903645/page-2#post-68505116

 

[SinnerInTheHands]

Please see Post #29 http://www.christianforums.com/thre...od-being-a-bully.7903645/page-2#post-68505116

It's called reiteration. I did it on purpose.

 

[rockytopva]

Deuteronomy 4:40
Thou shalt keep therefore his statutes, and his commandments, which I command thee this day, that it may go well with thee, andwith thy children after thee, and that thou mayest prolong thy days upon the earth, which the Lord thy God giveth thee, for ever.

I am not saying that eating pork is a sin... Just that it is not good for you. I believe it will go better with people who eat of the beasts that chew the cud and part the hooves. I know too many retirees who would meet at Hardee's every day and then pass away due to not taking care of themselves.

 

[Incredible Transformation]

Big macs at 480 calories and 28 grans of fat will kill you quicker then you think, although its a better choice then the quarter pounder that has 780 calories and 40 grams of fat. The daily limit on fat is 60 grams a day. If you go over that then it becomes a health hazard to your coronary system. At 1380 grams of salt that is more then my personal daily allowance. That much salt will cause water retention, swelling and bloating. Not even to begin to talk about the toxins in processed food being a high risk for cancer.

I quit eating that crap a long time ago, now I know why. That's crazy. The crazy thing is why would anyone put this junk in their mouths.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

The leaves are for the healing of the nations...
This may be a futeristic prophesy but with all the chemicals placed into the foods it seems almost impossible to get away from unless you live in a rural area like Rick Otto who can barter with friends to have all the foodstuffs available without the chemical components.
No human body is prepared naturally for the onslaught against us in this chemical warfare but some cultures are more prepared than others. Turmeric and cilantro are naturally found to counteract much of the harmful effect so as to flush it from the body and silicon or natural gelatin provides what's lacking from eating only lean muscle meat ...

 

[Xalith]

I quit eating that crap a long time ago, now I know why. That's crazy. The crazy thing is why would anyone put this junk in their mouths.

Because it is all some people can afford to eat?

You can go to McD's and buy a meal there for a few dollars. Or, you can get something more "healthy" for 3x - 4x the price?

With the economy tanking lately and how most companies that make food that you find in the grocery store getting cheaper and cheaper and throwing junk in the food to make it cheaper so they can make more profits, it is getting more and more difficult to find anything "wholesome" to eat.

And with how bad the economy is, not everybody has time to grow their own vegetables, raise their own livestock, etc. A lot of people can't even have the time to parent their own children, let alone run a personal home farm (which also takes lots of money too).

 

[Strong in Him]

Matt5:17 17"Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill.18"For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished.…"

Jesus was talking to the Pharisees when he said that - he was telling Jews that he had not come to abolish the Jewish law but to fulfil it.
He has fulfilled the Jewish law for the Jews. I am not Jewish, but if I was, and I had been under Jewish law; Jesus has fulfilled that.

If people do not follow the law then do not be surprised if they get sick.

But plenty do not follow this law and still do not get sick.
IF this was a command, or dietary advice, from God and it was vital we obey it for our spiritual and physical health, you would think that anyone who did not do so would be rebuked for disobedience and permanently sick.
That is not the case.

John10:10 "The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I came that they may have life, and have it abundantly."

What's that verse - quoted out of context - got to do with the Jewish dietary food laws?

 

[SAAN]

These verses are used all the time to say Jesus canceled the dietary laws.

Mark 7:17-19
New King James Version (NKJV)

17 When He had entered a house away from the crowd, His disciples asked Him concerning the parable. 18 So He said to them, “Are you thus without understanding also? Do you not perceive that whatever enters a man from outside cannot defile him, 19 because it does not enter his heart but his stomach, and is eliminated, thus purifying all foods?”

and
Matthew 15:16-20
16 So Jesus said, “Are you also still without understanding? 17 Do you not yet understand that whatever enters the mouth goes into the stomach and is eliminated? 18 But those things which proceed out of the mouth come from the heart, and they defile a man. 19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies.20 These are the things which defile a man, but to eat with unwashed hands does not defile a man.”

-The whole issue in both these parallel chapters were the Pharisees were accusing them of eating with unwashed hands.

Matthew 15:2
2 “Why do Your disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? For they do not wash their hands when they eat bread.”

Mark 7:5
5 Then the Pharisees and scribes asked Him, “Why do Your disciples not walk according to the tradition of the elders, but eat bread with unwashed hands?”


-Jesus then went on to challenge them as to why do they put aside the commands of God to follow their traditions. So it would make no sense for Jesus to tell them about stop putting aside the commands of God and following the traditions of men and then turn right around and tell them it is now okay to put aside the commands of God and you can now break the dietary laws. The issue was about eating with unwashed hands, not dietary laws debate.


-Jesus no where says in either of those 2 chapters, you now have a free ticket to eat unclean foods now and there was not even any debate on clean vs unclean foods in those chapters.


-Mathew 15 and Mark 7:19 make it very clear that eating with unwashed hands doesn't defile you or make anyone unclean, so those verses CANT be used to say Jesus said we cant eat whatever we want.