Carnivore Diet

[trophy33]

Vitamin C is very important and its easy to have inadequate levels for optimum health. Unlike animals like cats, humans don't synthesize their own vitamin C, and must obtain it from food.

The average human male needs about 9-10mg of vitamin C a day to prevent diseases like Scurvy, and vitamin C is degraded or destroyed by any kind of cooking that involves higher heat (like stewing, boiling, grilling, etc., commonly used to cook meat). On the other hand, an optimum level of vitamin C would involve more like 70-90mg a day to saturate the neutrophils for optimum immune functioning, ideal wound healing, and joint health (since it's involved in the synthesis of collagen and cartilage). You also need vitamin C to protect the nitric oxide cycle in the body, which is highly beneficial for cardiovascular health and athletic performance.

People who are even decades on carnivore diet do not develop scurvy. Neither do Inuits, Masai and neither did our carnivore ancestors living during ice ages.

Scurvy is developed with alcoholism or when sugar competes for the same pathways as the vitamin C. People consuming 0 sugar can metabolize vitamin C perfectly and so a small dosage that is naturally in animal products is sufficient.

Scurvy was historically always developed in populations with high alcohol and high carbohydrate consumption, like in sailors (rum + crackers diet). Those need fruit or a vitamin C supplement, not carnivores.

 

[FireDragon76]

People who are even decades on carnivore diet do not develop scurvy. Neither do Inuits, Masai and neither did our carnivore ancestors living during ice ages.

Inuit ate raw meat, including organ meats and parts of animal bodies that are foreign to western diets (including stomach contents of animals) during the winters, something that isn't generally advisable if you want to avoid parasitic infections or food poisoning.

They also didn't exist on an exclusively carnivorous diet. They ate berries and wild plants during the short summers. Masai also didn't exist exclusively on meat and dairy- honey constituted a significant portion of the calories they consumed. So they aren't a good example of a carnivorous population.

This abstract discusses research into the tradition Greenland natives diet, and how it included a significant amount of algae. So they likely did obtain most of their vitamin C they needed from meat, but from algae.

Vitamin C in East-Greenland traditional nutrition: a reanalysis of the Høygaard nutritional data (1936-1937) - PubMed

Greenlandic traditional nutrition was an almost exclusive meat dietary pattern. Høygaard et al. stayed in East-Greenland between August 1936 and August 1937. The four members of the expedition resided in Tasisaq and recorded nutritional intake by residing in families. However, data were analysed...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

At any rate, appeal to traditional diets in and of itself isn't the best indicator of what a healthy diet should be. Most Masai died traditionally in late middle age, as did peoples in the Arctic. It was a healthy enough diet to survive and reproduce, but by modern standards their diets reflect a marginal existence and are hardly optimum for human health.

Scurvy is developed with alcoholism or when sugar competes for the same pathways as the vitamin C. People consuming 0 sugar can metabolize vitamin C perfectly and so a small dosage that is naturally in animal products is sufficient.

While glucose can compete with vitamin C, meat has so little vitamin C that I doubt that even enhanced absorbtion from a low sugar diet would make much of a difference. It's certainly not optimum for immune, cardiovascular, or joint health.

Scurvy among people eating a carnivorous diet is documented in the medical literature, and isn't a purely academic concern. There are so few people eating an exclusively carnivorous diet, however, that cases are rare. Like this one:

Scurvy in an unrepentant carnivore - PubMed

For centuries, scurvy, or vitamin C deficiency, decimated crews of sailing ships on long sea voyages and populations deprived of fresh fruits and vegetables during times of war or famine. Today, scurvy is extremely rare in the United States, and its classic findings of perifollicular petechiae...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Celebrities that have tried carnivore diets have also developed scurvy:

What is scurvy? James Blunt was diagnosed with the 'sailor's disease' after eating meat-only diet

Scurvy is a severe vitamin C deficiency.

sports.yahoo.com

 

[trophy33]

Inuit ate raw meat, including organ meats and parts of animal bodies that are foreign to western diets (including stomach contents of animals) during the winters, something that isn't generally advisable if you want to avoid parasitic infections or food poisoning.

They also didn't exist on an exclusively carnivorous diet. They ate berries and wild plants during the short summers. Masai also didn't exist exclusively on meat and dairy- honey constituted a significant portion of the calories they consumed. So they aren't a good example of a carnivorous population.

This abstract discusses research into the tradition Greenland natives diet, and how it included a significant amount of algae. So they likely did obtain most of their vitamin C they needed from meat, but from algae.

Vitamin C in East-Greenland traditional nutrition: a reanalysis of the Høygaard nutritional data (1936-1937) - PubMed

Greenlandic traditional nutrition was an almost exclusive meat dietary pattern. Høygaard et al. stayed in East-Greenland between August 1936 and August 1937. The four members of the expedition resided in Tasisaq and recorded nutritional intake by residing in families. However, data were analysed...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

At any rate, appeal to traditional diets in and of itself isn't the best indicator of what a healthy diet should be. Most Masai died traditionally in late middle age, as did peoples in the Arctic. It was a healthy enough diet to survive and reproduce, but by modern standards their diets reflect a marginal existence and are hardly optimum for human health.



While glucose can compete with vitamin C, meat has so little vitamin C that I doubt that even enhanced absorbtion from a low sugar diet would make much of a difference. It's certainly not optimum for immune, cardiovascular, or joint health.

Scurvy among people eating a carnivorous diet is documented in the medical literature, and isn't a purely academic concern. There are so few people eating an exclusively carnivorous diet, however, that cases are rare. Like this one:

Scurvy in an unrepentant carnivore - PubMed

For centuries, scurvy, or vitamin C deficiency, decimated crews of sailing ships on long sea voyages and populations deprived of fresh fruits and vegetables during times of war or famine. Today, scurvy is extremely rare in the United States, and its classic findings of perifollicular petechiae...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Celebrities that have tried carnivore diets have also developed scurvy:

What is scurvy? James Blunt was diagnosed with the 'sailor's disease' after eating meat-only diet

Scurvy is a severe vitamin C deficiency.

sports.yahoo.com

If you are so afraid of scurvy, you can buy a multivitamin for basically 3 dollars a month, to be sure. Or a bit of berries. But its not needed, its just to calm your mind down.

Humans were apex predators for millions of years and used no supplementation, Inuits or Masai are/were predominantly animal based as the most of the human society in the past, also without supplementation. And many people are carnivores for decades today, without developing scurvy.

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/ajpa.24247

But if you want, you can supplement, to be sure. We can use modern benefits, like we use vaccinations, beds or hot showers. Carnivore does not mean you must live in a cave. It just means you are eating what we are supposed to be eating, predominantly. It does not mean you are lost if you will ever drink a tea or, oh mine, eat an apple. It is not a religion like veganism. And you can use any biohacking you see fit. What matters is that you eliminate what harms you and intake what your body needs.

 

[timewerx]

A carnivore diet maybe against scriptures:

Proverbs 23:20
Do not join those who drink too much wine
or gorge themselves on meat,

 

[FireDragon76]

A carnivore diet maybe against scriptures:

Proverbs 23:20
Do not join those who drink too much wine
or gorge themselves on meat,

I think this verse is really about gluttony.

 

[trophy33]

A carnivore diet maybe against scriptures:

Proverbs 23:20
Do not join those who drink too much wine
or gorge themselves on meat,

And do not forget you also should not be rich. So, stay poor and in malnutrition. And the next step could be whipping yourself.

 

[timewerx]

And do not forget you also should not be rich. So, stay poor and in malnutrition. And the next step could be whipping yourself.

You should leave your church if they preach any of those things.

And carefully study the Bible over and over is that's what you think Jesus is telling us.

 

[trophy33]

You should leave your church if they preach any of those things.

And carefully study the Bible over and over is that's what you think Jesus is telling us.

Its what I get from your posts, not from any church.

 

[timewerx]

Its what I get from your posts, not from any church.

I never said anything to quit your jobs nor shutdown your business.

Nor avoid high income jobs. Obviously, if you're making lots of money, millions a year, you're rich and nothing wrong with that as long as you're making honest, sustainable business, remain humble in all your ways and even the choice of friends, and using your money for a good cause.

I'll admit my mistake if you can find any post of mine where I said to leave your jobs, close your business, leave yourself penniless.

 

[trophy33]

I never said anything to quit your jobs nor shutdown your business.

Nor avoid high income jobs. Obviously, if you're making lots of money, millions a year, you're rich and nothing wrong with that as long as you're making honest, sustainable business, remain humble in all your ways and even the choice of friends, and using your money for a good cause.

I'll admit my mistake if you can find any post of mine where I said to leave your jobs, close your business, leave yourself penniless.

I said nothing about leaving jobs or shutting down businesses.

But you posted several times a harsh criticism of the "rich" western Christians, because you are poor and you think its more Christ-like.

 

[timewerx]

I think this verse is really about gluttony.

"Gluttony" and "meat" is mentioned separately in that verse with Hebrew words:

בְּזֹלֲלֵ֖י and בָשָׂ֣ר

Some English translations will only mention gluttons and not say anything about meat. But the more original Hebrew translation mention both gluttonous and meat in that verse.

 

[timewerx]

I said nothing about leaving jobs or shutting down businesses.

But you posted several times a harsh criticism of the "rich" western Christians, because you are poor and you think its more Christ-like.

I did criticize the lifestyles of rich western Christians because they often conduct business, work, and spend their money in unGodly ways, just like unbelievers do. Even tell about their charitable works as the hypocrites (Jesus said it first). They do it more often than not.

Yet, money is a tool that can either be used for good or for bad.

It's not wrong to be rich if you handle money as Jesus would.

 

[RDKirk]

"Gluttony" and "meat" is mentioned separately in that verse with Hebrew words:

בְּזֹלֲלֵ֖י and בָשָׂ֣ר

Some English translations will only mention gluttons and not say anything about meat. But the more original Hebrew translation mention both gluttonous and meat in that verse.

And it mentions both terms because they're both necessary for the accurate meaning. The following verse makes its point:

For the drunkard and the glutton shall come to poverty: and drowsiness shall clothe a man with rags.

So, it's not the meat itself that's the significant issue, but the gluttony. People on a carnivore diet are still only to eat to maintenance levels of calories or less.


And they shall eat the flesh in that night, roast with fire, and unleavened bread; and with bitter herbs they shall eat it.--Exodus 12:8. the Hebrew בשׂר basar is used.

Also, throughout Exodus, Leviticus, and Deuteronomy in all the laws of what to eat and what not to eat, בשׂר basar is used for all the various types of flesh they are permitted to eat.

 

[timewerx]

And it mentions both terms because they're both necessary for the accurate meaning. The following verse makes its point:

For the drunkard and the glutton shall come to poverty: and drowsiness shall clothe a man with rags.

So, it's not the meat itself that's the significant issue, but the gluttony. People on a carnivore diet are still only to eat to maintenance levels of calories or less.


And they shall eat the flesh in that night, roast with fire, and unleavened bread; and with bitter herbs they shall eat it.--Exodus 12:8. the Hebrew בשׂר basar is used.

Also, throughout Exodus, Leviticus, and Deuteronomy in all the laws of what to eat and what not to eat, בשׂר basar is used for all the various types of flesh they are permitted to eat.

I still eat meat. So I get your point concerning gluttony.

But why did that verse say meat, not vegetables, nor any other food?

It made me think we should avoid gluttony and also eat meat under moderation.

 

[FireDragon76]

"Gluttony" and "meat" is mentioned separately in that verse with Hebrew words:

בְּזֹלֲלֵ֖י and בָשָׂ֣ר

Some English translations will only mention gluttons and not say anything about meat. But the more original Hebrew translation mention both gluttonous and meat in that verse.

Are you unfamiliar with semitic parallelism? The verse is expressing a single concept through two concrete images: wine and meat are joined in that verse, with the second part of the verse amplifying the first part.

 

[FireDragon76]

Gluttony might still be pertinent to the ethics of meat consumption, however, since gluttony refers to eating greedily and/or immoderately. When considering the amount of the planet's resources used to supply many advanced, industrialized nations with animal flesh, it's not hard for me to consider that sort of consumption greedy or immoderate.

 

[RDKirk]

Gluttony might still be pertinent to the ethics of meat consumption, however, since gluttony refers to eating greedily and/or immoderately. When considering the amount of the planet's resources used to supply many advanced, industrialized nations with animal flesh, it's not hard for me to consider that sort of consumption greedy or immoderate.

It might be a matter of customary food availability. People who were intentional gluttons, more or less specializing in gastronomic excess as at a feast, may have specifically filled themselves with meat rather than bread or vegetables. I'll have to confess, that's me at a Brazillian steakhouse.

 

[timewerx]

Gluttony might still be pertinent to the ethics of meat consumption, however, since gluttony refers to eating greedily and/or immoderately. When considering the amount of the planet's resources used to supply many advanced, industrialized nations with animal flesh, it's not hard for me to consider that sort of consumption greedy or immoderate.

The Hebrew word for gluttony (like in glutton of meat) is almost like eating meat in a "rough, unrefined manner". As someone who hasn't eaten the whole day.

All the teachings of Jesus Christ have strong emphasis towards sustainable living. That is minimizing your ecological footprint. Most interesting, the Revelation told about the judgement of people who "destroy the Earth" where the context is that of excessive exploitation of a land for resources that also causes corruption or pollution of the land.

Many Christians laugh about that verse. They say it doesn't really mean what it says. They're in denial, could not accept a verse that directly attacks their lifestyles.

 

[FireDragon76]

The Hebrew word for gluttony (like in glutton of meat) is almost like eating meat in a "rough, unrefined manner". As someone who hasn't eaten the whole day.

All the teachings of Jesus Christ have strong emphasis towards sustainable living. That is minimizing your ecological footprint. Most interesting, the Revelation told about the judgement of people who "destroy the Earth" where the context is that of excessive exploitation of a land for resources that also causes corruption or pollution of the land.

Many Christians laugh about that verse. They say it doesn't really mean what it says. They're in denial, could not accept a verse that directly attacks their lifestyles.

One of my favorite verses in the whole Bible, actually. By analogy, I suppose, the verse could be understood as the apocalyptic expectation that the world to come will be rid of all exploitation that defaces the creation. But that wasn't the original author's intent.

Understanding the background of Revelation is useful. It seems to have come from a rural community (perhaps in Syria) on the edges of an empire, and their perspective. In alot of rural areas, the actual land was owned by wealthy absentee landlords who lived far away, and local people were itinerant farmers who were mostly poor and in debt. And it's these types of social arrangements that are seen as the curse the world is going to be rid of in the age to come, for the author.

 

[timewerx]

Understanding the background of Revelation is useful. It seems to have come from a rural community (perhaps in Syria) on the edges of an empire, and their perspective. In alot of rural areas, the actual land was owned by wealthy absentee landlords who lived far away, and local people were itinerant farmers who were mostly poor and in debt. And it's these types of social arrangements that are seen as the curse the world is going to be rid of in the age to come, for the author.

Such arrangements are still endemic today in various forms.

Ironically, they do result to obscene levels of inefficiency both economically and in terms of work/energy. Inefficiency do literally cause greater demand for exploitation of the land.