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Of course life can come from non-life.

PeterMaclellan

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Often raised against evolution is the concept that life cannot come from non-life. Now lets set aside the fact that this has nothing at all to do with biological evolution, which is the discussion of changes in existing life. Do creationists not realize that that in order to be a creationist, you must also believe that life came from non-life? The lowest form of Creationist will occasionally, in a fit of ignorance, exclaim "We didn't evolve from rocks!" while the slightly more cognizant variety will make the same claim however they will dress it up with slightly less ridiculous language such as "abiogenesis is impossible".

According to Genesis, humans were made out of dust, non-living material. So we have two theories: Scientific Abiogenesis and Theological Abiogenesis.

Scientific Abiogenesis (and keep in mind I'm a philosophy major, not a biologist so I might not have the best grasp of this concept) claims that very basic amino acids and proteins formed in the primordial ooze billions of years ago, and over the course of many millions of years and incremental, tiny changes formed incredibly simple organisms that slowly became more complex due to mutation.

Theological Abiogenesis claims God breathed on dirt and a fully functional human popped into existence.

Now at this time I will make no claim as to which one is true or false, I merely want to raise the point that when a Creationist claims that that Scientific Abiogenesis is ridiculous, the only alternative is a scenario that is many orders of magnitude more unbelievable. In what kind of mind is the latter of these two MORE logically sound then the former?


Both theories are essentially the same: Life came from inorganic material. However the Creationist theory also presupposes the existence of a preexisting INCREDIBLY complex intelligence, with no explanation or description of either the origin of this complex intelligence OR the processes it used to create life.

So why do creationists insist on Claiming abiogenesis is impossible? Their theory is BASED on a form of abiogenesis far less logical then the scientific theory of abiogenesis.
 

corvus_corax

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I had a convo with someone about this once. His bottom line was that there was life (god) behind the magic and it wasn't comparable. I didn't see it that way but that's as far as we got.
Did you ever ask them to define "life" or "that which is alive"?
Bet they'd have run into some snags then, referring to their god as alive (I know, that's not necessarily what they said, but it's tantamount to doing so)
 
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sashatheman

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Good question in relation to Abiogenesis and evolution as a whole for Intelligent Design supporters (advocating instantaneous creation) would be; why can't God be the underlying force for setting up evolution and why can't it be in Gods plan for it to happen that way. I feel it is a much more sensible belief.
 
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AV1611VET

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Theological Abiogenesis claims God breathed on dirt and a fully functional human popped into existence.

Let's get the story straight, shall we?

[bible]Genesis 2:7[/bible]

God breathed on dirt? A fully functional human "popped into existence"?

Anyone can make a story sound incredulous by changing the wording.

Notice your description of the two accounts?

Scientific Abiogenesis (and keep in mind I'm a philosophy major, not a biologist so I might not have the best grasp of this concept) claims that very basic amino acids and proteins formed in the primordial ooze billions of years ago, and over the course of many millions of years and incremental, tiny changes formed incredibly simple organisms that slowly became more complex due to mutation.

Look how well you worded that.

Now the other account:

Theological Abiogenesis claims God breathed on dirt and a fully functional human popped into existence.

You don't even get the story straight. In fact, you get it backward. And your "popped into existence" remark is much too vague; especially to one who believes in ex-nihilo Creation.

Wikipedia said:
Ex nihilo is a Latin term meaning "out of nothing". It is often used in conjunction with the term creation, as in creatio ex nihilo, meaning "creation out of nothing". Due to the nature of this term, it is often used in philosophical or creationistic arguments, as many Christian, Muslims and Jews believe that God created the universe from nothing. This contrasts with "creatio ex materia," which is creation out of eternally preexistent matter, and "creatio ex deo," which is creation out of the being of God.
 
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Allegory

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Let's get the story straight, shall we?

[bible]Genesis 2:7[/bible]

God breathed on dirt? A fully functional human "popped into existence"?

Anyone can make a story sound incredulous by changing the wording.

Notice your description of the two accounts?

Look how well you worded that.

Now the other account:

You don't even get the story straight. In fact, you get it backward. And your "popped into existence" remark is much too vague; especially to one who believes in ex-nihilo Creation.


His version is still less ridiculous than the biblical version....
 
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MoonLancer

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Theological Abiogenesis claims God breathed on dirt and a fully functional human popped into existence.
[bible]Genesis 2:7[/bible]

one depects god as a magical sculptor and the other one a stage magician. They are really similar except appeals to emotion, while the other one does not. Really they are the same though.

How does changing the order effect the formula in this case? How does changing the order invalidate the bibles version? what changes make it unable to become true?
 
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Naraoia

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Let's get the story straight, shall we?

[bible]Genesis 2:7[/bible]

God breathed on dirt? A fully functional human "popped into existence"?

Anyone can make a story sound incredulous by changing the wording.
Although perhaps it wasn't the nicest thing to word the descriptions the way he did, the point still holds. While science does not envision huge or implausible leaps in the genesis of life, the Judeo-Christian creation story does exactly what Creationists can't believe evolution can do: the sudden creation of something incredibly complex from something rather much simpler. And that even without providing a proper mechanism.

You don't even get the story straight. In fact, you get it backward. And your "popped into existence" remark is much too vague; especially to one who believes in ex-nihilo Creation.
How much more specific is the "God shaped him from dust and breathed life into him" account? In essence, that's "popping into existence". So long as no real mechanism is given it's perfectly irrelevant what kind of magic spells are invoked.

(And what does this have to do with ex nihilo creation?)
 
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corvus_corax

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Just one point I wanted to address-
And your "popped into existence" remark is much too vague; especially to one who believes in ex-nihilo Creation.
Please note, that God did not create Man (Adam) ex-nihilo, no matter how you want to twist the scriptures.

And if you come back and say something along the lines of "of course He didn't", then you have missed the entire point about the creation of humankind in the OP.
 
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AV1611VET

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Just one point I wanted to address-
Please note, that God did not create Man (Adam) ex-nihilo, no matter how you want to twist the scriptures.

No kidding! That's the point I'm making --- lol.

Do you see what happens now when someone lets their bias get in the way of interpreting the Bible?

They can end up getting the story backwards.

I do wish you guys could see yourselves sometimes.

Again, check out how well the "scientific" explanation was treated vis-a-vis the Scriptural one.

This OP is a perfect example of bias in action.

And if you come back and say something along the lines of "of course He didn't", then you have missed the entire point about the creation of humankind in the OP.

By all means then, bring me up-to-date.
 
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corvus_corax

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No kidding! That's the point I'm making --- lol.
Well that's good :wave:
You just starting spouting all the ex nihilo crap and I thought you were talking about man (after all, you didnt differentiate)
Anyway....

Do you see what happens now when someone lets their bias get in the way of interpreting the Bible?
I see that all the time amongst christians

They can end up getting the story backwards.
I see this all the time amongst christians as well

I do wish you guys could see yourselves sometimes.
"You guys"?
Please AV, you aren't classifying me with an atheist or even an agnostic are you? My theistic belief has been made QUITE clear on these forums.
Perhaps you need to define "you guys", as it seems to me that you are classifying "us guys" as theists who don't believe in your personal interpretation of the bible.
I could be wrong on that account, of course :wave:

Again, check out how well the "scientific" explanation was treated vis-a-vis the Scriptural one.
Scientific explanations explain physical reality.
Even as a theist, I can easily see that the Bible is nothing more than a explanation via magic incantation regarding the creation of the universe
This OP is a perfect example of bias in action.
How is abiogenesis via your god a bias?
You DO understand what abiogensis is, don't you? It's essentially life from non-living matter.
Man from dust is abiogenesis (whether from chemistry or goddidit)



By all means then, bring me up-to-date.[/quote]
 
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TemperateSeaIsland

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Do you see what happens now when someone lets their bias get in the way of interpreting the Bible?

Do you know whats even worse? It's when people use the bible to get in the way of interpreting the world and it's history.
 
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FishFace

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Let's get the story straight, shall we?

[bible]Genesis 2:7[/bible]

God breathed on dirt? A fully functional human "popped into existence"?

Anyone can make a story sound incredulous by changing the wording.

Indeed - but in this case, it wasn't necessary; it sounds ridiculous whichever way you slice it.
 
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FoeHammer

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Of course life can come from non-life.
not according to my Bible it didn't and for anyone who may be looking for a natural explanation of "abiogenesis" it can’t, by definition, be found in a man made laboratory.

FoeHammer.
 
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