Objective evidence of God

[CatholicSoxFan]

The only objective evidence for God has to be physical evidence?

 

[Oncedeceived]

And here I am, still waiting for objective evidence supporting the existence of God...

So do you think we have a handle on the difference in objective evidence and subjective claims; that objective evidence is not a property of any one but is separate from any claims it is used for?

 

[Subduction Zone]

What do you mean all fossils fit the evolutionary paradigm.

A good question.

The theory of evolution makes certain predictions involving fossils. You surely have heard the cliche' that evolution would be disproved by a Cambrian bunny rabbit. That would be an example of a fossil that did not fit the evolutionary paradigm. The evolutionary paradigm also predicts that fossils would fit in a nested hierarchy. Where various species could be seen to be the forerunners of one or more species in the "tree of life".

The problem with the various variations of creationism is that they have no consistent explanation of the fossil record.

 

[Subduction Zone]

The only objective evidence for God has to be physical evidence?

Objective evidence is usually considered to be the best evidence. There is other evidence for God, but it is not very strong at all.

 

[Oncedeceived]

What I find really interesting is that even the Bible says there is no evidence for God. It clearly says that you need faith to believe in him. What they don't seem to realize is that, if there was objective, testable evidence for God, there would be no need for faith.

This is simply false.

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Psa. 19:1, 'The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth His handywork." The beauty and glory of the heavens speak loudly saying, [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]There is no speech, nor are there words[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] [/FONT]their voice is not heard;4 yet their voice goes out through all the earth,and their words to the end of the world. [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]"[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] "For the invisible things of Him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse."[/FONT]

Jesus has evidence of His existence. So if you are claiming that the Bible claims there is no evidence of God that shoots down your premise all together.

Job 11: 7 Canst thou by searching find out God? canst thou find out the Almighty unto perfection? 8 It is as high as heaven; what canst thou do? deeper than hell; what canst thou know?

This is Job speaking about his trials.

1 Timothy 6:16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

This is explaining that the Father can not be seen. Physically seen. That doesn't say that there is no evidence of Him.

Romans 11:33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!

We can't know His thoughts and judgments, again nothing about no evidence of God.

 

[Oncedeceived]

Objective evidence is usually considered to be the best evidence. There is other evidence for God, but it is not very strong at all.

It is not that it isn't strong, it is just that it can't be shared.

 

[Oncedeceived]

A good question.

The theory of evolution makes certain predictions involving fossils. You surely have heard the cliche' that evolution would be disproved by a Cambrian bunny rabbit. That would be an example of a fossil that did not fit the evolutionary paradigm. The evolutionary paradigm also predicts that fossils would fit in a nested hierarchy. Where various species could be seen to be the forerunners of one or more species in the "tree of life".

The problem with the various variations of creationism is that they have no consistent explanation of the fossil record.

See the problem with this is that we found the fossils and made the determination after the fact that we would not find a bunny in the Cambrian. The creation narrative says that we wouldn't find a bunny in the Cambrian as well and the Bible was written long before the fossil finds that established the life eras.

 

[Subduction Zone]

It is not that it isn't strong, it is just that it can't be shared.

The problem is that all religions, not just Christianity have that sort of "evidence". Your personal experience will be comparable to the personal experience of a Muslim or a Hindu.

 

[EternalDragon]

I see where you are on this, but don't you think it is a rather broad and general piece of the whole?

Sure. So anyone can understand it.

 

[Subduction Zone]

See the problem with this is that we found the fossils and made the determination after the fact that we would not find a bunny in the Cambrian. The creation narrative says that we wouldn't find a bunny in the Cambrian as well and the Bible was written long before the fossil finds that established the life eras.

No, there is no reason from the Bible that we would not find a Bunny Wabbit in the Cambrian. Not only that, fossils have been found by using the predictive power of the evolutionary paradigm. And like I said, creationists cannot even get off of the starting blocks. They have no paradigm that is both self consistent and consistent with observations.

ETA: I even had a thread here and no creationists here were able to rise to the challenge.

 

[Oncedeceived]

The problem is that all religions, not just Christianity have that sort of "evidence". Your personal experience will be comparable to the personal experience of a Muslim or a Hindu.

SZ, I have repeatedly told you that the Muslim nor the Hindu have experiences with their gods. Look it up for goodness sake. Both of these religions think they are unworthy to have an experience with their god. The Hindu believe that they will someday reach that and the Muslim doesn't have that in their belief system.

 

[Subduction Zone]

SZ, I have repeatedly told you that the Muslim nor the Hindu have experiences with their gods. Look it up for goodness sake. Both of these religions think they are unworthy to have an experience with their god. The Hindu believe that they will someday reach that and the Muslim doesn't have that in their belief system.

If you did then you were repeatedly wrong. The problem with finding these claims for us is that the number of English speaking followers of Islam is very small. It is strongest in non-English speaking countries so it is going to be difficult to find such posts in English. That does not mean that they do not exist:

Why I Believe in Islam

 

[Oncedeceived]

No, there is no reason from the Bible that we would not find a Bunny Wabbit in the Cambrian. Not only that, fossils have been found by using the predictive power of the evolutionary paradigm. And like I said, creationists cannot even get off of the starting blocks. They have no paradigm that is both self consistent and consistent with observations.

ETA: I even had a thread here and no creationists here were able to rise to the challenge.

There is a reason that you would not find a mammal in the Cambrian from the Bible.

There is a sequence listed:

Plants
life swarming the waters
Birds
life moves to land with crawling creatures, beasts of the earth
Cattle and creeping things. (now admittedly we don't have a certain type of crawling or creeping things so we can't say what those are for certain)
man


So no bunnies before the Cambrian where we see the seas swarming with life.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Hindu near death experiences:

Near-Death Experiences of Hindus | Near-Death.com

People keep forgetting that the search engine they use is tuned to your own personal prejudices from repeated searches. If I enter something in a search bar I will not necessarily get the same results that someone else will with the exact same "search". In fact is is almost guaranteed that my search will be unique.

If I could ask a question in Hindi odds are I could pull up many examples of personal experiences of Hindus, instead since I come from a culture that is mainly Christian the sites I pull up are tainted by that search engine prejudice.

Don't be so quick to claim that other cultures do not have some trait. It may simply be a flaw in your search engine.

 

[Oncedeceived]

If you did then you were repeatedly wrong. The problem with finding these claims for us is that the number of English speaking followers of Islam is very small. It is strongest in non-English speaking countries so it is going to be difficult to find such posts in English. That does not mean that they do not exist:

Why I Believe in Islam

God (whose name is "Allah" in Arabic) is the creator and sustainer of this universe, Since man cannot know his Creator through the physical senses, God has revealed Himself through a series of messengers or prophets. We are familiar with some of them through earlier scriptures such as the Torah and the [Injeel] Gospel. Every people on earth was at some time sent a messenger from God, but with the passing of generations men tended to deviate from the true religion, often replacing it with alien ideas and practices. Each prophet was sent to reform his people and turn them back to the worship of God alone. The last of these prophets was Muhammad (blessings and peace be upon him), through whom God's message was completed. God promised that this final message would be preserved for all mankind. And the words revealed by God through the Angel Gabriel (pbuh) to Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) have indeed been passed down to us in their original Arabic text, unchanged since the time of revelation. This scripture is called the Qur'an.

Introducing Islam

I also had a friend on here that was a Muslim and they said the same.

 

[Subduction Zone]

There is a reason that you would not find a mammal in the Cambrian from the Bible.

There is a sequence listed:

Plants
life swarming the waters
Birds
life moves to land with crawling creatures, beasts of the earth
Cattle and creeping things. (now admittedly we don't have a certain type of crawling or creeping things so we can't say what those are for certain)
man


So no bunnies before the Cambrian where we see the seas swarming with life.

You keep forgetting that creationists cannot explain how the fossils formed in the first place. So your claim is flawed.

 

[Oncedeceived]

Hindu near death experiences:

Near-Death Experiences of Hindus | Near-Death.com

People keep forgetting that the search engine they use is tuned to your own personal prejudices from repeated searches. If I enter something in a search bar I will not necessarily get the same results that someone else will with the exact same "search". In fact is is almost guaranteed that my search will be unique.

If I could ask a question in Hindi odds are I could pull up many examples of personal experiences of Hindus, instead since I come from a culture that is mainly Christian the sites I pull up are tainted by that search engine prejudice.

Don't be so quick to claim that other cultures do not have some trait. It may simply be a flaw in your search engine.

I know how the search engines work. However, there are tenets of each religion that you mentioned that prove you wrong.

 

[Subduction Zone]

God (whose name is "Allah" in Arabic) is the creator and sustainer of this universe, Since man cannot know his Creator through the physical senses, God has revealed Himself through a series of messengers or prophets. We are familiar with some of them through earlier scriptures such as the Torah and the [Injeel] Gospel. Every people on earth was at some time sent a messenger from God, but with the passing of generations men tended to deviate from the true religion, often replacing it with alien ideas and practices. Each prophet was sent to reform his people and turn them back to the worship of God alone. The last of these prophets was Muhammad (blessings and peace be upon him), through whom God's message was completed. God promised that this final message would be preserved for all mankind. And the words revealed by God through the Angel Gabriel (pbuh) to Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) have indeed been passed down to us in their original Arabic text, unchanged since the time of revelation. This scripture is called the Qur'an.

Introducing Islam

I also had a friend on here that was a Muslim and they said the same.

Perhaps you misunderstood you friend. Also a "personal experience" with a prophet would be the same for them as your supposed "personal experience" with God. You may not realize it but that is the exact same sort of evidence or experience.

 

[Oncedeceived]

You keep forgetting that creationists cannot explain how the fossils formed in the first place. So your claim is flawed.

Now where in the world did that come from?

 

[EternalDragon]

There is a reason that you would not find a mammal in the Cambrian from the Bible.

There is a sequence listed:

Plants
life swarming the waters
Birds
life moves to land with crawling creatures, beasts of the earth
Cattle and creeping things. (now admittedly we don't have a certain type of crawling or creeping things so we can't say what those are for certain)
man


So no bunnies before the Cambrian where we see the seas swarming with life.

Yet I have seen SZ or someone else admit there is no real sequence like that on the earth. (or in the earth)