Obama outlines reforms for energy policy

Crusader05

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MachZer0

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http://www.huffingtonpost.com/steve-clemons/obamas-interesting-propo_b_47917.html

Here's a very good analysis of Obama's plan by a liberal blogger. He says its not perfect, but its very good start. Its also a lot better than the febble efforts the president has put forth. I like this idea because it's based on free-market incentives designed to help American producers and workers.
I'm sorry, but can you explain how taking money from one group of persons and giving it to another equates to "free market" incentives?
 
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Maynard Keenan

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The most important part is raising the fuel economy standards. The assistence is to help the companies offset the costs associated with retooling and such, and to help bail out our automakers who are being sunk by retiree benefits.
 
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MachZer0

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The most important part is raising the fuel economy standards. The assistence is to help the companies offset the costs associated with retooling and such, and to help bail out our automakers who are being sunk by retiree benefits.
So the end results and the benefits achieved make them free market incentives, regardless of how the money for the incentives is acquired?
 
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Crusader05

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I'm sorry, but can you explain how taking money from one group of persons and giving it to another equates to "free market" incentives?
The use of government incentives to business is nothing new, the practice has been around for a very long time. While it might not jive with a lassiere faire image of the economy the government has a role to play in ensuring our auto industry remains competative and they are manufacturing environmentally friendly vehicles. This is a much better method than making a law or executive order making them produce these kinds of autos.
 
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ImmortalTechnique

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I'd reccomend that we all take stock of our past experiences on CF when conducting this and future conversations, and not allow ourselves to get derailed or distracted by those who are unwilling or unable to stay on topic or conduct a reasonable debate
 
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richyu

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would one of my conservative brother/sister explain this to me-- since I am constantly baffled by this seeming inconsistancy.

if we say that the government should enforce morality (abortion, ban on same-sex marriage) then why should it not actively fight environmental abuses?
 
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MachZer0

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The use of government incentives to business is nothing new, the practice has been around for a very long time. While it might not jive with a lassiere faire image of the economy the government has a role to play in ensuring our auto industry remains competative and they are manufacturing environmentally friendly vehicles. This is a much better method than making a law or executive order making them produce these kinds of autos.
The question was, how do you call these types of incentives "free market"
 
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richyu

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here's an idea-- maybe free-market is not inherently a Christian system at all?

in fact "market driven economy" seems a bit too mamon-oriented to me... not saying that I have an answer or there's a more efficient system out there, just that the the Kingdom of God described in the pentateuch seems to allow for much more active governmental role in economic ethics.
 
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Crusader05

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The question was, how do you call these types of incentives "free market"
There is no inconsistency between the free market and the government providing an incentive for businesses to something. It's much better than the government doing it by fiat.
 
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MachZer0

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There is no inconsistency between the free market and the government providing an incentive for businesses to something. It's much better than the government doing it by fiat.
It seems to me that incentive is a euphemism in this case. He actually plans to give them $7billion. That's money that Obama has to take from people like me. So here's the big picture. He's going to force me to pay GM and Ford to build a car that I don't want.
 
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noparty

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It seems to me that incentive is a euphemism in this case. He actually plans to give them $7billion. That's money that Obama has to take from people like me. So here's the big picture. He's going to force me to pay GM and Ford to build a car that I don't want.

At least he's not forcing you to pay for a war you don't want.
 
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It seems to me that incentive is a euphemism in this case. He actually plans to give them $7billion. That's money that Obama has to take from people like me. So here's the big picture. He's going to force me to pay GM and Ford to build a car that I don't want.
The government takes money from people like me for things I dont want my money to go to, all the time. Thats life....you do have a choice to not pay your taxes.
 
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noparty

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Yeah Mach, Dubya takes money from me to fight a war I don't want fought. I have to deal with it because that is how our democracy works.

I'll pay someone's portion of the $7 billion if they'll pay my portion of the $200+ billion for the war. So for everyone that paypals me $800+, I'll send you $28 back.
 
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Foolish_Fool

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It seems to me that incentive is a euphemism in this case. He actually plans to give them $7billion. That's money that Obama has to take from people like me. So here's the big picture. He's going to force me to pay GM and Ford to build a car that I don't want.

Newsflash: The government has been using your money for things you don't need/want since you gave them your first penny.
 
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Billnew

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http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070507/ap_on_el_pr/obama_autos;_ylt=AneamYFwX7auSEE.MC42LdLMWM0F

Sen. Barack Obama has outlined his plan for encouraging American automakers to manufacure more energy efficient vehicles. Check it out, it sounds like a good plan to me.

"The need to drastically change our energy policy is no longer a debatable proposition. It is not a question of whether, but how; not a question of if, but when. For the sake of our security, our economy, our jobs and our planet, the age of oil must end in our time." - Sen. Obama
Actually, the energy policy is debatable.
We're proving that here.

American car makers aren't producing fuel efficent vehicles, because the buyers don't want them.(maybe with $3+ gas, it might change)
So goverment wants to force car makers to make cars people don't want?
Do people want a mini SUV? A heavy truck with no power?
Obama isn't being realistic. Foriegn car makers that make American type vehicles, aren't much better in fuel economy. A foriegn made SUV gets only a few miles/gallon better then American.

Remember; Democrats like goverment to solve the problems, Conservatives(not neocons) like for the market to fix itself.

Look at American vehicles that have forced emissions controls under the hood. Look at Foriegn cars that work the emssions controls into the vehicle. One is forced by goverment, and the other want to sell to us.
The market will make any adjustments it needs.

By the way, How do you make a 3/4 ton truck more fuel efficient? If it is lighter, it won't be able to handle towing as much(Tacoma=10,000 lb towing)

Will the govement mandate people buy smaller cars? America wants big cars. When they tire of spending so much on gas, they will buy a smaller car.

Sorry, big vehicles can't be fuel efficient.
 
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