O.B.N.C.

[fhansen]

You said this:

Do you mean obligated to get saved or to remain saved? Or something else?

I asked this on the previous page. Would you please answer?

I did. Post 497

 

[fhansen]

He doesn't make anyone righteous. When He IMPUTES righteousness to a person, it is the righteousness of Christ IN the person. But you don't seem to understand "impute".

Well, if imputes means that...then you're on track with the Catholic doctrine that true righteouness is imparted or infused into the person.

 

[fhansen]

What do you think "made" means? It's not a declaration but a creation.

"For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous." Rom 2:13

God declares those righteous whom He makes righteous, truly righteous, law-abiding... while no longer "under the law", in spite of the law, apart from the law and the prophets. This comes as a result of faith in Him. Because the exercising of this righteoues is optional, since the will of man is still intact, since he;s niot a puppet, man now works out his salvation with God and the rightouness that only he can provide. As man struggles to do the right thing in this world, and not be swayed by its temptations and the "family traditon" of sin, a battle occurs. I've come to apprecaite the folowing teaching:
"The whole of man's history has been the story of dour combat with the powers of evil, stretching, so our Lord tells us, from the very dawn of history until the last day. Finding himself in the midst of the battlefield man has to struggle to do what is right, and it is at great cost to himself, and aided by God's grace, that he succeeds in achieving his own inner integrity."

 

[FreeGrace2]

Ok, guess its easier just to evade the argument rather than address it.

Get real. I did address it. And exposed the error of the RCC. Are you in the RCC?

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
But, explain how a saved person "cooperates" with God in ord for the believer to "grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord".

If no cooperation occurs, then growth in knowledge and grace just happens to us -as we sit passively. That's not at all how it works-by Scripture or experience.

I never suggested it did. Your response seems more of a dodge than any kind of explanation.

Again, how does a believer cooperate with God in order to grow in grace and in the knowledge of the Lord?

This isn't a difficult question.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
The change is because of the FACT that man's dead human spirit has been quickened, or RE-generated, or born AGAIN. That's what makes a person "changed".

Ok??? So what does this quickening and regenerating accomplish in the man so as to make him act differently?

Your presumption is unbiblical. Nothing "makes" him act differently. But where do you think the Holy Spirit resides in the believer? Liver? Stomach? Left big toe? Where do you think?

How is he now different? The terms have to mean something beyond just words.

Of course they do. And since you seem to be at a lot for words, it is clear to me that you really don't know how to answer my question.

Jesus told the woman at the well HOW to worship God. Do you remember what He said?

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
That's been my point.

But you miss the point.

You really don't understand how silly this comment is?? How can I miss a point that has been mine?

I have a $100 bill in my pocket right now. PM me and I will give you my address, show up at my door and I will give you the $100 bill. Now, that is a gift with conditions. If you meet the conditions, you will get $100, but if you fail to meet any of them, then you fail to get the gift.

But if you were to go to one of my companies, gain employment, work for 10 hours at $10/hour and you can earn $100.

One is earned, the other is a gift.

Correct. Again, my point precisely.

No matter what we do in this life, we will NEVER earn salvation.

That is fact.

That is the point of Eph 2:8-9: there is nothing we can do to earn salvation, it is a gift from God. But that gift has conditions.

What conditions? I’ve spelled them out before:
Repent - Acts 3:19
Confess Jesus’ Name - Rom 10:9-10
Be baptized - Acts 2:38, Rom 6:1-11, Col 2:11-13 and others.

Again, you simply fail to understand the difference between water and Spirit baptism. So there is no way you can understand any verse that mentions "baptism". You will always default to H20.

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
The ONLY condition (qualification) spelled out is to believe in the Person and Work of Jesus Christ..

That is a lie. See above.

Well, you are certainly bold in your lack of understanding.

It isn't a lie. It is exactly what Paul told the jailer when he asked what he MUST DO to be saved. But you don't believe what Paul said. You insist that there is more, and that Paul HAD TO explain what was more when the jailer took him into his house.

But you cannot prove your presumption, and that is all it is.

Paul gave a complete answer, but your faulty view of baptism limits your ability to grasp the truth.

 

[fhansen]

Get real. I did address it. And exposed the error of the RCC. Are you in the RCC?

You failed at exposing anything except your own error. The Greeks and eastern churches didnt have the "didadvantage" of speaking Latin-and, incidentally, Koine Greek was spoken by most in the Roman Empire from the period before and after Christ, while the gospel had been received and understood by the whole church. My profile already speaks for itself.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
The ONLY condition (qualification) spelled out is to believe in the Person and Work of Jesus Christ.

You've not shown otherwise.

It's what we do in our newly justfied state as a new creation, filled with grace, given the Spirit, that matters.

Matters...for what, exactly? Could you be more clear in your pronouncements?

Obviously what we do as believers in the Lord matters. But please explain HOW it matters, and for what reason.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
He doesn't make anyone righteous. When He IMPUTES righteousness to a person, it is the righteousness of Christ IN the person. But you don't seem to understand "impute".

Well, if imputes means that...then you're on track with the Catholic doctrine that true righteouness is imparted or infused into the person.

No I don't agree with that.

Let me help you out:

impute
ĭm-pyoo͞t′
transitive verb

1. To relate (something, usually something bad) to a particular cause or source; place the fault or responsibility for: synonym: attribute.
2. To assign as a characteristic; credit.
3. To charge; to ascribe; to attribute; to set to the account of; to charge to one as the author, responsible originator, or possessor;

This is what "impute" means. Nothing more.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
What do you think "made" means? It's not a declaration but a creation.

"For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous." Rom 2:13

How does this address my question? Didn't you read it?

Here's the point about v.13. NO ONE can "obey the Law". That's what Rom 3:20 says.

God declares those righteous whom He makes righteous

You can stop trying to keep forcing your "makes" theory into what God does. You haven't proven your theory from Scripture.

 

[FreeGrace2]

You failed at exposing anything except your own error. The Greeks and eastern churches didnt have the "didadvantage" of speaking Latin-and, incidentally, Koine Greek was spoken by most in the Roman Empire from the period before and after Christ, while the gospel had been received and understood by the whole church. My profile already speaks for itself.

What "profile" are you referring to? And where?

 

[Doug Brents]

How can I miss a point that has been mine?

Because you make the wrong point.

That is fact.

At least you believe some truth.

Again, you simply fail to understand the difference between water and Spirit baptism. So there is no way you can understand any verse that mentions "baptism". You will always default to H20.

I have detailed from Scripture that water baptism is the one baptism in the NT. The fact that you refuse to see that truth amazes me. It is quite clear in Scripture that water has to be the one baptism. But then Jesus said there would be those who have eyes yet cannot see.

It isn't a lie. It is exactly what Paul told the jailer when he asked what he MUST DO to be saved. But you don't believe what Paul said. You insist that there is more, and that Paul HAD TO explain what was more when the jailer took him into his house.

Well, that is what Scripture says, so since you claim to believe Scripture, you should believe it too. But it doesn’t agree with your preconceived ideas, so you have to change what Scripture says.

But you cannot prove your presumption, and that is all it is.

Paul gave a complete answer, but your faulty view of baptism limits your ability to grasp the truth.

Indeed Paul did, in verse 32, but you are stuck on verse 31 thinking that one sentence explains fully Jesus’ sinless life, His sacrificial death which paid for our sin, His resurrection which conquered death, and His commandments to repent, confess His name, and be baptized into Him in order to receive forgiveness of sin. Absolutely none of that is in verse 31.
But that is what he explained in verse 32.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
How can I miss a point that has been mine?

Because you make the wrong point.

Amazing! I was agreeing with YOUR point when I said "that is my point".

So, are you now admitting that your point is wrong?? Since they are the same point.

[QUOTEI have detailed from Scripture that water baptism is the one baptism in the NT. [/QUOTE]
No, you have only demonstrated a narrow view of baptism. You seem to ignore the baptism of the Holy Spirit, which John the baptizer mentioned.

You also seem totally unaware that there are real and ritual baptisms.

The fact that you refuse to see that truth amazes me.

I just summarized the truth about baptism. It's you who refuse to see the truth.

It is quite clear in Scripture that water has to be the one baptism.

Hardly. John was clear about REAL and RITUAL baptisms, which you seem to deny.

Mark 1:8 - I baptize you with water, but he will baptize you with the Holy Spirit.”

But then Jesus said there would be those who have eyes yet cannot see.

And He was describing your views.

It isn't a lie. It is exactly what Paul told the jailer when he asked what he MUST DO to be saved. But you don't believe what Paul said. You insist that there is more, and that Paul HAD TO explain what was more when the jailer took him into his house.

Well, that is what Scripture says, so since you claim to believe Scripture, you should believe it too. But it doesn’t agree with your preconceived ideas, so you have to change what Scripture says.

Yes, the Bible gives us the CLEAR message that Paul gave the jailer. And also tells us that Paul then told the family. Acts 16:31 is HOW to be saved. But YOU don't believe that.

Indeed Paul did, in verse 32, but you are stuck on verse 31 thinking that one sentence explains fully Jesus’ sinless life, His sacrificial death which paid for our sin, His resurrection which conquered death, and His commandments to repent, confess His name, and be baptized into Him in order to receive forgiveness of sin. Absolutely none of that is in verse 31.

What you don't have is any information about what was said in v.32. All you have is your own presumptions.

But that is what he explained in verse 32.

I have no doubt that Paul did explain fully who Jesus is (Deity) and what He did on the cross (pay for our sins) and that trusting in Him alone for salvation is what saves.

Your notions about water baptism for salvation are all wet.

Again, Mark 1:8 refutes your notions.

It's all about eyes to see.

But you don't see that.

 

[fhansen]

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
But, explain how a saved person "cooperates" with God in ord for the believer to "grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord".

I never suggested it did. Your response seems more of a dodge than any kind of explanation.

Again, how does a believer cooperate with God in order to grow in grace and in the knowledge of the Lord?

This isn't a difficult question.

I told you. He acts, he obeys, he does God's will.

 

[fhansen]

Matters...for what, exactly? Could you be more clear in your pronouncements?

For salvation. I've given the quotes. You've dismissed them.

 

[fhansen]

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
What do you think "made" means? It's not a declaration but a creation.

How does this address my question? Didn't you read it?

Here's the point about v.13. NO ONE can "obey the Law". That's what Rom 3:20 says.


You can stop trying to keep forcing your "makes" theory into what God does. You haven't proven your theory from Scripture.

No, you miss a major part of the new covenant. No one can obey the law apart from God. No one can put to death the deeds of the flesh apart from the Holy Spirit. No one can be purified of all unrighteousness apart from Jesus. Fallen mans problem: he's apart from God, who created no one to sin. But who gives us the option of turning to Him and away from sin when He comes knocking at our door.
"No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him." 1 John 3:6

Christianity 101. We'll struggle with sin-but a Christian will be winning the battle more than he backslides at the end of the day. Bottom line, again,
"At the evening of life we shall be judged on our love."

 

[fhansen]

What "profile" are you referring to? And where?

The one where yours reads "Non-Denom", nomenclature I used to wear myself.

 

[fhansen]

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
He doesn't make anyone righteous. When He IMPUTES righteousness to a person, it is the righteousness of Christ IN the person. But you don't seem to understand "impute".

No I don't agree with that.

Let me help you out:

impute
ĭm-pyoo͞t′
transitive verb

1. To relate (something, usually something bad) to a particular cause or source; place the fault or responsibility for: synonym: attribute.
2. To assign as a characteristic; credit.
3. To charge; to ascribe; to attribute; to set to the account of; to charge to one as the author, responsible originator, or possessor;

This is what "impute" means. Nothing more.

But your post I responded to suggests you think more than imputation of righteousness is done in man.

 

[fhansen]

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
The change is because of the FACT that man's dead human spirit has been quickened, or RE-generated, or born AGAIN. That's what makes a person "changed".

Your presumption is unbiblical. Nothing "makes" him act differently. But where do you think the Holy Spirit resides in the believer? Liver? Stomach? Left big toe? Where do you think?


Of course they do. And since you seem to be at a lot for words, it is clear to me that you really don't know how to answer my question.

Jesus told the woman at the well HOW to worship God. Do you remember what He said?

Of course. And yet you completely failed to address my post. Why would the Spirit make that differnce in us? What's the differnece between being Spirit-filled or not Spirit-filled? Do we become His thoughtless automotons now? Or are we changed by that life in us?