O.B.N.C.

[fhansen]

Since you believe the irrational idea that eternal life CAN die again, there is no reason for further comment on your post.

Those were Pauls' words, not mine.

OK, insinuation that I do. So please explain your irratonal statement. iow, prove it.

I already did. God has no need to pretend that you're righteous when He knows you're not. But He can make you righteous; He can justify you. Then He doesn't need to pretend.

 

[fhansen]

Just another made up fantasy. But, go ahead and quote any Scripture that teaches this.

Done that too many times already.

 

[fhansen]

We ARE saved when we "believe in the Lord Jesus Christ" as Paul told the jailer. Acts 16:31

By receiving righteouness, being justified. That's why were now salvageable. His work of grace in us. He is our rightouness, but it's a real one, one that we participate in to the extent that we truly remain in Him; one that we fail to particapte in as we turn back to the flesh and to sin instead.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Oh, ok-except that I never mentioned "create" anyway. You've maintained that "made just" is an inferior translation.

What do you think "made" means? It's not a declaration but a creation.

Just yourself tho, few or no bible actual translators apparently.

When a Greek lexicon is available, I don't really care what old dead translators thought.

But God's church has always believed that God makes a person just...at justifcation.

The RCC came up with "made" because of the INFERIOR Latin word. God doesn't "make" a person just. God declares a person justified.

That's the only sane reason for his acting more justly after conversion. He's changed.

The change is because of the FACT that man's dead human spirit has been quickened, or RE-generated, or born AGAIN. That's what makes a person "changed".

They ARE a new creation. But that has nothing to do with being declared righteous.

 

[fhansen]

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
You asked for the evidence. I gave it to you. It's yours to figure out.

You gave nothing that even suggested proof that I said a baby isn't spritaully dead until they sin. And you obviously can't do it now either. So you should give it up along with the rest of this silliness.

Why would anyone assume such a thing? Does the Bible say that he was "born again" or "regenerated" when he was created? No, it does NOT. Your assumptions are absurd.

The terms, "regenerated" and "born again" speak of something that was once alive, then died. We all died with Adam. Now we must be reborn.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
Salvation is a gift. It is unearned. It is by grace.

Do you understand the difference between grace and works?

They are two totally unrelated concepts. Grace is an unmerited gift. Period. That’s all the word means.

That's been my point.

Works is almost always a reference to the Law of Moses, but is sometimes a reference to the things we were created to do in exemplifying Christ once we are in Him.

I wish you had at least read Rom 4:4,5. Paul was talking about a paycheck, which is NOT grace, but what is owed.

Yes, salvation is a gift that is not earned. There is no way we could possibly pay the price for our sin (spend eternity in Hell) and still spend eternity in Heaven. But that gift has some qualifications as spelled out in Scriptures quoted and cited earlier in this thread. If those conditions are not met, then the curse is received rather than the blessing (gift).

The ONLY condition (qualification) spelled out is to believe in the Person and Work of Jesus Christ.

You've not shown otherwise.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
And that's the point. God IMPUTES His righteousness to those who believe. That's NOT "creating" a "righteous person". It is CREDITING righteousness to a person. No creation involved.

You're lacking much understanding of the faith, swayed as you've been by the doctinre of Sola Fide and its realated doctrine of imputed righteousness. Abraham's faith was credited to him as rightousness because the act was righteuous.

Your snippy commend about what I lack is actually shown about yourself in what you post above. If the very act is righteous, then there is NO REASON for God to "credit righteousness" to the one who believes. You are very confused.

Personal righteouness cannot be separated from faith-they go hand in hand-and God wants both

Prove it from Scripture.

 

[FreeGrace2]

This is about as lame a "theology" as they come. We do not grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord without our particaption, our seeking, our cooperating. That's how He does things for our own good! He's not a divine puppetmaster.

I never even suggested that God is a puppetmaster. You can leave that critique to the Calvinists.

But, explain how a saved person "cooperates" with God in ord for the believer to "grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord".

 

[fhansen]

When a Greek lexicon is available, I don't really care what old dead translators thought.

How "scholarly". We just need to point those dummies to the lexicon!

The RCC came up with "made" because of the INFERIOR Latin word. God doesn't "make" a person just. God declares a person justified.

Thats such a trite and tired unscholarly postion. You never answered why the Greek-speaking early church has the same basic view of justifaction as Catholcism-and why the east still does. Or why the ECFs all do. As if the dumb Catholics just stumbled on their own language and forgot what the orignal church recevied and taught.

 

[FreeGrace2]

God has no need to pretend that your righteous when He knows you're not.

You still don't seem to understand.

When the Bible says that God creditss= or imputes righteousness to those who believe, He isn't pretending that they are righteous by what they do.

Do you even understand what "impute" means?

But He can make you righteous; He can justify you. Then He doesn't need to pretend.

He never pretends, so please stop with these ridiculous words of yours.

He doesn't make anyone righteous. When He IMPUTES righteousness to a person, it is the righteousness of Christ IN the person. But you don't seem to understand "impute".

 

[FreeGrace2]

By receiving righteouness, being justified.

Finally. There you go. Yes!! The imputation of righteousness is a reception.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
The RCC came up with "made" because of the INFERIOR Latin word. God doesn't "make" a person just. God declares a person justified.

Thats such a trite and tired unscholarly postion.

I agree! The RCC should have just stayed with the original Greek. They would have avoided their error.

You never answered why the Greek-speaking early church has the same basic view of justifaction as Catholcism-and why the east still does. Or why the ECFs all do. As if the dumb Catholics just stumbled on their own language and forgot what the orignal church recevied and taught.

As I have already pointed out, the Greek doesn't mean "made". But why bother with facts when your mind is already made up?

 

[fhansen]

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
The RCC came up with "made" because of the INFERIOR Latin word. God doesn't "make" a person just. God declares a person justified.

I agree! The RCC should have just stayed with the original Greek. They would have avoided their error.


As I have already pointed out, the Greek doesn't mean "made". But why bother with facts when your mind is already made up?

Ok, guess its easier just to evade the argument rather than address it.

 

[fhansen]

Finally. There you go. Yes!! The imputation of righteousness is a reception.

Yes, righteuosness is a reception. Once you come to better understand the faith you'll agree whole-heartedly with this teaching,
"At the evening of life we shall be judged on our love."

 

[fhansen]

I never even suggested that God is a puppetmaster. You can leave that critique to the Calvinists.

But, explain how a saved person "cooperates" with God in ord for the believer to "grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord".

If no cooperation occurs, then growth in knowledge and grace just happens to us -as we sit passively. That's not at all how it works-by Scripture or experience.

 

[fhansen]

The change is because of the FACT that man's dead human spirit has been quickened, or RE-generated, or born AGAIN. That's what makes a person "changed".

Ok??? So what does this quickening and regenerating accomplish in the man so as to make him act differently? How is he now different? The terms have to mean something beyond just words.

 

[Doug Brents]

That's been my point.

But you miss the point. I have a $100 bill in my pocket right now. PM me and I will give you my address, show up at my door and I will give you the $100 bill. Now, that is a gift with conditions. If you meet the conditions, you will get $100, but if you fail to meet any of them, then you fail to get the gift.

But if you were to go to one of my companies, gain employment, work for 10 hours at $10/hour and you can earn $100.

One is earned, the other is a gift.

No matter what we do in this life, we will NEVER earn salvation. That is the point of Eph 2:8-9: there is nothing we can do to earn salvation, it is a gift from God. But that gift has conditions.

What conditions? I’ve spelled them out before:
Repent - Acts 3:19
Confess Jesus’ Name - Rom 10:9-10
Be baptized - Acts 2:38, Rom 6:1-11, Col 2:11-13 and others.

I wish you had at least read Rom 4:4,5. Paul was talking about a paycheck, which is NOT grace, but what is owed.

I agree. Salvation is not that. It is a qualified gift, like the oil for the widow, the fall of the walls of Jericho, and the cleansing of Naaman.

The ONLY condition (qualification) spelled out is to believe in the Person and Work of Jesus Christ..

That is a lie. See above.

 

[fhansen]

The ONLY condition (qualification) spelled out is to believe in the Person and Work of Jesus Christ.

You've not shown otherwise.

It's what we do in our newly justfied state as a new creation, filled with grace, given the Spirit, that matters.

 

[fhansen]

The RCC came up with "made" because of the INFERIOR Latin word. God doesn't "make" a person just. God declares a person justified.

"For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous." Rom 2:13

The two go hand in hand. God doesn't declare anything righteous without it being righteous. He's not interested in what we're imputed to be, but in who we now are. And He's the only one who can do that, who can make us just. That's the point. The failure of the old covenant and the law was that man was still dead-because still apart from God. With the new covenant God finally accomplishes what the old could never do. Our lesson: apart from God we can do nothing, to paraphrase John 15:5.

Jesus came to reveal the true face of God, so that we may know Him, and by knowing Him come to beleive in, hope in, and, most importantly, to love Him. Those virtues, that righteounsess, again, are both gifts- and human choices-that we can and should grow in.
"Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent." John 17:3

 

[fhansen]

I said:
Your comment insinuated that a baby isn't spiritually dead until they grow up some and sin. But you haven't proved that.

fhansen said;
No, I never said anything like that.

It's the insinuation.

Only in your mind I guess-not in any of my words-including those above. I've already stated that all humans are born dead. The basis of that death is spiritual separation from God-lack of "the knowedge of God", which is exactly the state we're all born into-and sin is inevitable once that separation occurs. We don't even know where we came from, if anywhere, what we're here for, if for anything, and where we're going, if anywhere. That's the condition of one who is lost. Revelation gives us the knowedge of God that answers those questions-and faith is the reception and acceptance of that revelation resulting in being translated from lost to found, death to life-and then we grow personally in that intimate knowedge as we continue to walk with and obey Him.