Null/Voided Out

[mlepfitjw]

Who created sin?

Saint steven, I think we humans did. It was a choice. All because of Adam and Eve, We have the choice between Good and Evil.

 

[Dkh587]

No, Jesus didn't "plainly teach" what you are saying. Look, if you want to play "Bible Scholar" then do it honestly. The word "aionios" has been hideously mistranslated to mean "eternal" when it means nothing of the sort. The KJV and other Western translations are about as far from being good as they can be. Should be used to paper a parakeet's cage instead of teaching false doctrine.

Now let's get down to the real question: every action taken by a person is ordered to a goal. There is an end in sight, a goal to be achieved. Answer me this: what was the goal of creating man? To damn the majority of them or to glorify them?

Even if you use “age lasting”, it still doesn’t prove what you are arguing, because Jesus teaches of those who will have age lasting life and those who don’t. It doesn’t make your argument any stronger.

 

[Saint Steven]

Satan, when he rebelled against God in heaven. . .and was cast down to earth.

That's a good guess, and what one might expect for the origin of sin. But I don't think Satan had the ability to create anything. Here's a hint. (brace yourself)

Colossians 1:15-17
The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. 17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

Saint Steven said: ↑
Who created sin?

 

[Saint Steven]

Saint steven, I think we humans did. It was a choice. All because of Adam and Eve, We have the choice between Good and Evil.

But who created the choice? Why do we have a choice?

Saint Steven said: ↑
Who created sin?

 

[Saint Steven]

Hello again St. Steven, first off, HAPPY NEW YEAR

Same to you, thanks.

 

[Saint Steven]

Finally (for what it's worth), looking back again at Mal 3, I believe that you left out one of the strongest arguments for that passage being about the purification & cleansing of individuals (instead of their destruction .. at least principally) .. v6.

Malachi 3
6 “For I, the LORD, do not change; therefore you, O sons of Jacob, are not consumed."

Good point. Thanks.

 

[Saint Steven]

That's why I also posited the passage from Matthew 13 in a couple of my posts as well, as that text talks plainly about the existence of "tares", and of the angelic "reapers" who will gather them together at the end of the age and throw them into a "furnace of fire" (which will be a place of "weeping and gnashing of teeth" for the tares who are sent there).

I actually think the "weeping and gnashing of teeth" aspect also works in my favor. In the human experience, weeping and gnashing of teeth, indicates a sorrowful emotional state. (reminds me of when I got saved - lol) Therefore, I think the "fire" is purifying and cleansing the individual. Obviously, there is emotional pain involved in facing our fleshly selves. In the same way that believers will be tested. The wood, hay and stubble burns up, leaving the person intact.

 

[Dkh587]

Seriously, you didn't BOTHER to put me on the "bothered" list? - LOL
If I wasn't a Universal Restorationist, I would say that was unforgivable. - ha, ha

you’re not acting bothered in here to me

 

[Clare73]

That's a good guess, and what one might expect for the origin of sin. But I don't think Satan had the ability to create anything. Here's a hint. (brace yourself)

Colossians 1:15-17
The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. 17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

Saint Steven said: ↑
Who created sin?

You don't "create" sin, like you don't create darkness (Ge 1:2-4).

Sin, like darkness, is the absence of--darkness is the absence of light, and sin is the absence of "hitting the mark" (righteousness).

 

[Clare73]

I actually think the "weeping and gnashing of teeth" aspect also works in my favor. In the human experience, weeping and gnashing of teeth, indicates a sorrowful emotional state. (reminds me of when I got saved - lol) Therefore, I think the "fire" is purifying and cleansing the individual.

Except they don't ever get cleansed because the fire is forever and forever, not to mention the unending torment (Rev 14:11, 20:10).

Obviously, there is emotional pain involved in facing our fleshly selves. In the same way that believers will be tested. The wood, hay and stubble burns up, leaving the person intact.

 

[St_Worm2]

I actually think the "weeping and gnashing of teeth" aspect also works in my favor. In the human experience, weeping and gnashing of teeth, indicates a sorrowful emotional state. (reminds me of when I got saved - lol) Therefore, I think the "fire" is purifying and cleansing the individual. Obviously, there is emotional pain involved in facing our fleshly selves. In the same way that believers will be tested. The wood, hay and stubble burns up, leaving the person intact.

Hello brother, I was very emotional when I came to saving faith as well, but I would describe the emotion that I felt as overwhelming joy, not anguish and sorrow (though sorrow over my previous, sinful life helped to lead me to that point, of course, if that's what you mean).

The meaning of the texts are clear (that inform us of the eternity in the Lake of Fire that awaits everyone whose name is not written in the Book of Life .. e.g. Revelation 14:9-11, 20:11-15), unless you are constrained by a presupposition that forces you to change the meaning of them, that is (verses that @Clare73 just mentioned too).

--David

 

[Saint Steven]

you’re not acting bothered in here to me

I guess I need to work on that. - LOL --- (just kidding)

 

[Saint Steven]

You don't "create" sin, like you don't create darkness (Ge 1:2-4).

Sin, like darkness, is the absence of--darkness is the absence of light, and sin is the absence of "hitting the mark" (righteousness).

I agree that sin is not a "thing" to be created, but it came from somewhere. And Christians are very uncomfortable blaming God for it. I get that. Most are probably thinking of James 1:13-15. "... God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone..."

But... God did plant the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil in the center of the Garden and commanded Adam not to eat thereof. However, it required some clever trickery on the part of the serpent to get them to eat.

We can imagine what would happen if we placed a toy in the center of a playroom and told the children they could play with any toy but that one. Leave the room and watch the video surveillance.

 

[Saint Steven]

Except they don't ever get cleansed because the fire is forever and forever, not to mention the unending torment (Rev 14:11, 20:10).

There are serious questions about the translation of the word "eternal". Compare these two below.

Matthew 25:46 Young's Literal Translation
And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during.'

Matthew 25:46 New International Version
“Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

 

[Saint Steven]

Hello brother, I was very emotional when I came to saving faith as well, but I would describe the emotion that I felt as overwhelming joy, not anguish and sorrow (though sorrow over my previous, sinful life helped to lead me to that point, of course, if that's what you mean).

The meaning of the texts are clear (that inform us of the eternity in the Lake of Fire that awaits everyone whose name is not written in the Book of Life .. e.g. Revelation 14:9-11, 20:11-15), unless you are constrained by a presupposition that forces you to change the meaning of them, that is (as @Clare73 just mentioned too).

--David

Thanks. See post #194 above.

Aionios, the Greek word translated as "eternal" and "everlasting" in the Bible (eternal hell?)

The doctrine of eternal hell is so shocking that it deserves a careful examination. In this video we discuss the meaning of the word "aionios" by its other appearances in the Bible, not relying on dictionary definitions.

 

[Clare73]

Hello brother, I was very emotional when I came to saving faith as well, but I would describe the emotion that I felt as overwhelming joy, not anguish and sorrow (though sorrow over my previous, sinful life helped to lead me to that point, of course, if that's what you mean).

The meaning of the texts are clear (that inform us of the eternity in the Lake of Fire that awaits everyone whose name is not written in the Book of Life .. e.g. Revelation 14:9-11, 20:11-15), unless you are constrained by a presupposition that forces you to change the meaning of them, that is (as @Clare73 just mentioned too).

--David

Ditto to the overwhelming joy as the Holy Spirit filled every part of my being, including places I didn't even know I had. I could hardly breathe!

 

[Saint Steven]

Ditto to the overwhelming joy as the Holy Spirit penetrated every part of my being, including places I didn't even know I had. I could hardly breathe!

Great testimony, thanks. BTW: I was kidding about "weeping and gnashing of teeth" in my conversion experience. Not how it went down at all.

 

[Clare73]

I agree that sin is not a "thing" to be created, but it came from somewhere. And Christians are very uncomfortable blaming God for it. I get that. Most are probably thinking of James 1:13-15. "... God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone..."

Better yet. . .If God is not the author of confusion (1Co 14:33),

then most certainly "God is not the author of evil." PERIOD!

But... God did plant the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil in the center of the Garden and commanded Adam not to eat thereof.

The knowledge of good is in the doing of it, in obedience to God, and
the knowledge of evil is in the doing of it, in disobedience and rebellion to God.

Adam had the knowledge of good in the Garden, he acquired the knowledge of evil by rebellion to God's command.

However, it required some clever trickery on the part of the serpent to get them to eat.

We can imagine what would happen if we placed a toy in the center of a playroom and told the children they could play with any toy but that one. Leave the room and watch the video surveillance.

 

[Clare73]

There are serious questions about the translation of the word "eternal". Compare these two below.

Matthew 25:46 Young's Literal Translation
And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during.'

Matthew 25:46 New International Version'
“Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

"Eternal" is used two ways in the NT:
1) eternal - without end,
2) eternal life - God's own life within one's spirit.

 

[Saint Steven]

Adam had the knowledge of good in the Garden, he acquired the knowledge of evil by rebellion to God's command.

The fruit of the tree was to know the difference between good and evil. This was something Adam did NOT know prior.

I like the unanswered question God asked Adam. "Who told you that you were naked?" Who indeed. At the end of chapter two they were naked and unashamed.

Devil Talkin'