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Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by mlepfitjw, Dec 28, 2020.

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  1. mlepfitjw

    mlepfitjw May you be blessed!

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    Do you know why people say this God is the God of Wrath and Judgement?

    What about God is spirit, joy, peace, forbearance, gentleness, forgiveness, merciful, loving?
     
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  2. Michael Collum

    Michael Collum Everything began with a voice, use yours Supporter

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    This is usually because they want to scare you into believing their irrational theology, the tenor at which they say "God is the God of Wrath and Judgment, tends to make it sound like they are the god that they speak of, and want you to have faith in them.

    Do not be deceived by ghost stories little children.
     
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  3. prodromos

    prodromos Senior Veteran Supporter

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    Wrath is the experience of corruption in the presence of the pure and holy.
     
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  4. Michael Collum

    Michael Collum Everything began with a voice, use yours Supporter

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    That explains a lot about the psychology of it, a lot of people who focus on the wrath of God tend to seem terrified of something.
     
  5. Hammster

    Hammster Jesus is Post-Mil Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

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    For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them.
    Romans 1:18-19

    See also Matthew 23.
     
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  6. FutureAndAHope

    FutureAndAHope Just me Supporter

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    The bible tells us that "God is love", it does not say God is wrath. Wrath in God "in my opinion" is a result of people persistently rejecting His love. The bible tells us "God is long-suffering, not willing that any perish". I really think that people misrepresent God when they present Him as a God of wrath. Sure He can be driven to wrath.

    Rom 1:18-19 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hinder the truth in unrighteousness; because that which is known of God is manifest in them; for God manifested it unto them.

    But it is by people who suppress the truth and live unrighteously. These people God endured with much longsuffering, God put up with a lot.

    Rom 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
     
  7. Lazarus Short

    Lazarus Short Well-Known Member

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    I wonder if "wrath" could be replaced by "zeal" in some/many cases...
     
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  8. UnpopularOpinion

    UnpopularOpinion Member

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    Why not both or all the above?
     
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  9. St_Worm2

    St_Worm2 Simul Justus et Peccator Supporter

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    Perhaps because the Bible says He is? For example,

    Romans 1
    18 The wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness.

    Romans 5
    8 God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
    9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him.
    10 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.
    As for "judgment", here is but one example.

    Revelation 20
    11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them.
    12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds.
    13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds.
    14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.
    15 And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

    --David
    p.s. - the Lord Jesus both lived and died to save us from 1. the power that sin had over us in this life,
    2. the penalty of our sins, and 3. the wrath of His Father in the age to come.

     
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  10. Jeshu

    Jeshu Bought by His Blood Supporter

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    If you have existence in lies then the truth will be your undoing. However Scripture teaches that the truth has something in store for the deeds of unrighteousness, for although they may have been motivated by lies the were done in the truth. Revelation 20:12-15.

    And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.

    So people in their unrighteous deeds we will be punished and cut off from eternal life in such selves.

    All praise to Jesus!
     
  11. ewq1938

    ewq1938 It's ok to be wrong but it's not ok to stay wrong. Staff Member Supervisor Supporter

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    Because there are passages like this:

    Hebrews 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
    Hebrews 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
    Hebrews 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
    Hebrews 10:30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
    Hebrews 10:31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
     
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  12. Jesus is YHWH

    Jesus is YHWH my Lord and my God ! Supporter

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    "What is the biblical understanding of the wrath of God?"

    Answer:
    Wrath is defined as “the emotional response to perceived wrong and injustice,” often translated as “anger,” “indignation,” “vexation,” or “irritation.” Both humans and God express wrath. But there is vast difference between the wrath of God and the wrath of man. God’s wrath is holy and always justified; man’s is never holy and rarely justified.

    In the Old Testament, the wrath of God is a divine response to human sin and disobedience. Idolatry was most often the occasion for divine wrath. Psalm 78:56-66 describes Israel’s idolatry. The wrath of God is consistently directed towards those who do not follow His will (Deuteronomy 1:26-46; Joshua 7:1; Psalm 2:1-6). The Old Testament prophets often wrote of a day in the future, the "day of wrath" (Zephaniah 1:14-15). God’s wrath against sin and disobedience is perfectly justified because His plan for mankind is holy and perfect, just as God Himself is holy and perfect. God provided a way to gain divine favor—repentance—which turns God’s wrath away from the sinner. To reject that perfect plan is to reject God’s love, mercy, grace and favor and incur His righteous wrath.

    The New Testament also supports the concept of God as a God of wrath who judges sin. The story of the rich man and Lazarus speaks of the judgment of God and serious consequences for the unrepentant sinner (Luke 16:19–31). John 3:36 says, “Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on Him.” The one who believes in the Son will not suffer God’s wrath for his sin, because the Son took God’s wrath upon Himself when He died in our place on the cross (Romans 5:6–11). Those who do not believe in the Son, who do not receive Him as Savior, will be judged on the day of wrath (Romans 2:5–6).

    Conversely, human wrath is warned against in Romans 12:19, Ephesians 4:26, and Colossians 3:8-10. God alone is able to avenge because His vengeance is perfect and holy, whereas man’s wrath is sinful, opening him up to demonic influence. For the Christian, anger and wrath are inconsistent with our new nature, which is the nature of Christ Himself (2 Corinthians 5:17). To realize freedom from the domination of wrath, the believer needs the Holy Spirit to sanctify and cleanse his heart of feelings of wrath and anger. Romans 8 shows victory over sin in the life of one who is living in the Spirit (Romans 8:5-8). Philippians 4:4-7 tells us that the mind controlled by the Spirit is filled with peace.

    The wrath of God is a fearsome and terrifying thing. Only those who have been covered by the blood of Christ, shed for us on the cross, can be assured that God’s wrath will never fall on them. “Since we have now been justified by His blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through Him!” (Romans 5:9).got?

    hope this helps !!!
     
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  13. com7fy8

    com7fy8 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I can not speak for ones I do not know, who have said something like this. God is the only One worthy to judge, and the only One whose wrath is right, in any case.

    But how ones misrepresent this can be wrong, of course.

    But, yes, "God is love" > in 1 John 4:8&16.

    And God's word does say God has wrath toward sinners.

    One scripture I think of is where Paul the Apostle says >

    "consider the goodness and severity of God",

    in Romans 11:22.

    This is in God's word; so this is not merely what fear mongering people say.

    So, if we are going to discuss this, I would say start with God's word and what He means, and not with what misrepresentative ones are claiming and doing.
     
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  14. GOD Shines Forth!

    GOD Shines Forth! Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Truth. The problem is so many avoid God's Word as a norm (not judging, I have too) or don't want their child-like understanding disturbed. I remember an old British preacher talking about this and he said, "Be disturbed!"

    Wrath is in there and it falls on those who do not believe on Jesus. If that is actually true, then why not find it out and also what remedy God Himself has provided?
     
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  15. Tolworth John

    Tolworth John Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Is it loving, kind, etc not to tell the truth about God?

    Jesus said in John 3:18 that hose who do not believe in him are condemned already.
    And in John 5:24 he who believes in my word has crossed over from death to life and will not be judged.

    How we live in relation to Jesus has consequences for the Christian it is pleasant but not so for the non Christian.

    Follow the reasoning, why have we been saved from? A poor life style or from a hell of eternal punishment?
     
  16. Confused-by-christianity

    Confused-by-christianity Well-Known Member

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    I tend not to listen to people who say that sort of stuff. I let them think as they please but it’s not what I think Jesus was about.
    I personally don’t give any authority to people like that about God.
    Jesus provided a life and example with some instructions on what sort of heart we ought to have.
     
    Last edited: Dec 29, 2020
  17. mlepfitjw

    mlepfitjw May you be blessed!

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    Hello, Michael Collum. That type of teaching you are talking about was something I picked up early in life growing up with my mother. I learned about a Devil, and that there was a God. Though it took 25 years nearly to finally that Jesus Christ came along the path of life while there was a void of loss that something in life was miss, and it most certainly getting to have know Him and what he was about, and Learning about the real living God of Life, and the giver of all things good. (James 1:17)

    Hello Prodromos, So you think maybe we reap what we sow ? While the spirit lives inside of us which is of Christ Jesus and would be the only good thing truly about us, the way we look at Yeshua, and what He taught about living by the spirit though our flesh rots away, until we die and pass on then resurrected, to a glorified spiritual body that is given by God and also pleasing to God, you will enjoy it as well.

    Hello Hammster, alright thank you.

    Matthew 23-24 is a pretty strong testimony not only against the Pharisees, Scribes, and Israel but also what the disciples would have to suffer before their life came to an end. I believe they did and helped get the word (gospel according to Paul about the birth, death, and resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ on the third day by God ) out to the whole world in the context they would understand as they knew their world.



    Futureandahope, thank you for sharing.

    What do you mean by that Lazarus?

    What do you mean unpopularOpinion?

    Hello, st_worm2.

    Thank you for sharing Romans chapter 1, and 5. When reading Romans 1 through 5, you get to the point where it talks about God demonstrates his love for us even though we were still sinners that Christ died for us.

    I believe that this symbolizes that Christ Jesus was the only one who take on the wrath of God and drank of that cup, that was the wrath of God and ended up paying the price of sin, and death. Then was risen again three days by God.

    Thank you for sharing this with us, Jeshu.

    eqw, you might just be right!

    JesusisYHWH, thank you for sharing.

    Com, I agree.

    Hello Godshinesforth,
    Good questioning, and story.

    Hello Tolworth, you are saved to a relationship with God, I believe. Walking by the spirit, praying, and staying in communication with God is a great help compared to not believing, or having any faith in trust with God, and the Lord Jesus Christ. Thank you for sharing.

    *Edit: Also for the non believer they have no spirit in them. Though all you have to do is ask someone if they believe or not and they will honestly tell you right away in most cases. If they express non belief, you can ask questions but remember just to be friendly and make it about your new friend and see how things are going on with them while just hanging out for a few minutes if he is smoking a cigarette outside before he is going into the store, only to have one more on the way out.

    *Edit: There are many different measures of faith out in life. You just got ask what they believe. Then show them love of God by the spirit that God gives you as a believer that causes joy, peace, love, kindness, gentleness, forbearance, self-control, faithfulness, and allow sin to die off in their body as they live by the spirit that is driving them to love God and love their neighbor. (Galatians 5)

    Hello Confused, I agree with you on that we can discern by the spirit God gives us. Also when we learn about Jesus Christ we learn about how we are to be in our heart, you are absolutely right about that.
     
    Last edited: Dec 29, 2020
  18. com7fy8

    com7fy8 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    It depends on who is saying this, what this person means . . . and intends.

    God is good, Jesus says; and Jesus knows better than we humans know, to say the least.

    Because our Heavenly Father is good, how He judges is good. But it may not be good for certain people. But that is because of those people!!

    But, even now, with God we can benefit from how He is able to judge. And we can actively seek God now, in order for Him to change us according to how He will want us to become, by the Day of Judgment.

    "Love has been perfected among us in this: that we may have boldness in the day of judgment; because as He is, so are we in this world." (1 John 4:17)

    As we gain God's correction > Hebrews 12:4-14 > we become ready to so greatly reap benefit (Galatians 6:7-8) because of being corrected-changed to be like Jesus > Romans 8:29 < so we are ready to be family with Jesus and one another, and so pleasing to our Father like Jesus is, and so sharing > John 17:22-26, including sharing in His own glory and peace (John 14:27). But most of all is sharing and relating in love which we now have begun to enjoy > Romans 5:5, Ephesians 4:2, 4:31-32.

    His judgment will result in evil being put in its appropriate place. And He will have us with His own Son with whom He is so pleased (Matthew 17:5 and other scriptures). And we can be pleased, too, indeed, while we are pleasing our Father like Jesus!!!

    So, there are those who believe it is good how God is our God of wrath and judgment.
    Partly, it is what you make it, how you take it, just don't fake it.

    Fire is good, or a problem > a fire can be loving and kind and necessary for life, or fire can be deadly and quite able to burn you. Your nature has a lot to do with if you can be burned by fire or not, and how we relate with fire can determine if fire benefits us or not.

    "For our God is a consuming fire." (Hebrews 12:29)

    Our character has a lot to do with how God is for each of us . . . and how we relate with God . . . through His Son, or not. The same fire can burn rubber so it is worse and smells so much worse, or it can cook a raw chicken so it becomes finger-licking good and nutritious :)
     
  19. com7fy8

    com7fy8 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    The Bible says Jesus has come to save us from our sins (Matthew 1:21). And God's word says we are going to be "saved from wrath" (Romans 5:9).

    Our sins would be our "poor life style". Wrath would be included in eternal punishment.

    So, I would say we are saved from both.

    Also, by the way, Peter says, "Be saved from this perverse generation." (in Acts 2:40)
     
  20. Michael Collum

    Michael Collum Everything began with a voice, use yours Supporter

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    Yeah, as the writer of Hebrews says we come to Him because we believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who earnestly seek Him.

    If we believe He is, but think He is a torturing entity that does not reward anyone just for trying (since we cannot do much else) - then we won't be able to come to Him.

    Believing that there is a God and that this God is good and gives good gifts to those who make an effort to seek Him - results in us finding Him ... and noticing that He was present and waiting the whole time.
     
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