Null/Voided Out

[Light of the East]

Even if you use “age lasting”, it still doesn’t prove what you are arguing, because Jesus teaches of those who will have age lasting life and those who don’t. It doesn’t make your argument any stronger.

Says you. Apparently you don't understand the difference between a punishment that lasts for an age and one that never ends.

 

[Clare73]

That's where we disagree. The video is made by a Greek speaking Bible scholar. Well worth watching.

Saint Steven said: ↑
Just to be clear, I'm not saying that eternal life isn't eternal. (both quantitatively and qualitatively) We agree on that.

Then what difference does it make if aionios is translated incorrectly in some of the verses?

What I am saying is that the NT Greek word, "aionios", is mistranslated as "eternal" and "everlasting" in Matthew 25:46.

Well, you finally forced me to watch the video. . .

1) The speaker does not state that "eternal" life is not a good "fit" for the context of Mt 25:46,
he states "there are other verses where it does not fit the context." (as it does in Mt 25:46)

2) The speaker addresses the verses where "eternal" is not a good fit for aionios,
but he does not mention the 40 verses where "eternal" is a good fit for aionios.
So what's his point?

Mt 25:46 - "They then will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

So "eternal" life is a correct translation of aionios in Mt 25:46, and in 40 other verses, while
"eternal" death is a correct translation of aionios in Mt 25:46, and many other verses.

Then there is "ages of ages" making "forever and ever" (i.e., "eternal") a fit in the context of
Rev 14:11 - "and the smoke of their torment rises forever and ever" and
Rev 19:2-3 - "the smoke from her goes up forever and ever."

According to Jesus, eternal hell is the fate of the non-saved (Mt 3:12, 12:31, 32, 18:8-9, 25:41, 46; Mk 9:43, 47-48; Lk 3:17, 16:24),
as well as Mt 5:22, 13:30, which refer to the same fire and are, therefore, also eternal.

 

[Clare73]

Says you. Apparently you don't understand the difference between a punishment that lasts for an age and one that never ends.

The next "age" is eternity.

 

[Light of the East]

The next "age" is eternity.

Nope. The last book of the Bible speaks of "ages of ages" which are yet to come, not one final age.

 

[Light of the East]

Then what difference does it make if aionios is translated incorrectly in some of the verses?

Well, you finally forced me to watch the video. . .

1) The speaker does not state that "eternal" life is not a good fit for Mt 25:46, he states
"there are other verses where it does not fit the context." (as it does in Mt 25:46)

2) The speaker addresses the verses where "eternal" is not a good fit for aionios,
but he does not mention the 40 verses where "eternal" is a good fit for aionios.
So what's his point?

Mt 25:46 - "They then will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

So "eternal" life is a correct translation of aionios in Mt 25:46, and in 40 other verses, while
"eternal" death is a correct translation of aionios in Mt 25:46, as well as 12:31, 32; Lk 12:10.

Then there is "ages of ages" making "forever and ever"(i.e., "eternal") a fit in the context of
Rev 14:11 - "and the smoke of their torment rises forever and ever" and
Rev 19:2-3 - "the smoke from her goes up forever and ever."

According to Jesus, eternal hell is the fate of the non-saved (Mt 3:12, 12:31, 32, 18:8, 25:41, 46;
Mk 9:48; Lk 12:20),
as well as Mt 5:22, 13:30; Mk 9:43 which refer to the same fire and are, therefore, also eternal.

Whooooooosh!!! Right over your head.

If "aionios" and its derivatives cannot mean either "world" or "eternal" in one place, then it cannot mean it in another just to fit your preconceptions of God and His dealings with His children.

Now tell me something....why does it bother you to think that God is so good, loving, wise, and forgiving that He would not send people to an eternal hell of torment? You haven't been this way, but some people get pretty indignant at the idea of God not having an eternal torture chamber.

Just curious for your personal reasons, if you don't mind.

 

[Clare73]

Whooooooosh!!! Right over your head.

If "aionios" and its derivatives cannot mean either "world" or "eternal" in one place, then it cannot mean it in another just to fit your preconceptions of God and His dealings with His children.

Tell it to the Bible scholar. . .he did not say that "eternal" was not a good "fit" for the context
of Mt 25:46, and the 40 other verses where it is translated the same.

His case in the verses he presents is that "eternal" cannot fit the context of those verses. He does not deny that it fits the context of Mt 25:46.
But what does fit the context of the verses he presents is the translation "age" for aionios, whose meaning is "age lasting."

Now tell me something....why does it bother you to think that God is so good, loving, wise, and forgiving that He would not send people to an eternal hell of torment? You haven't been this way, but some people get pretty indignant at the idea of God not having an eternal torture chamber.

This may shock you, but in this regard the only thing that bothers me is altering the Word of God, which is what this does.

Just curious for your personal reasons, if you don't mind.

I don't have any personal reasons. My only reason is that it is not the Word of God.
My only interest is that it is God's infinite mind I am believing, rather than my own finite mind.

I am most comfortable with whatever he does, because all that he does is good and right, whether
I think so or not.

You haven't yet gotten out of God 101. . .
He's God, you're not.
He judges you, you don't judge him.
He is not accountable to you, you are accountable to him.

His thoughts are not our thoughts
our ways are not his ways
as the heavens are higher than the earth, so
his ways are higher than our ways,
and his thoughts than our thoughts, etc., etc., etc.

 

[Light of the East]

QUOTE="Clare73

Tell it to the Bible scholar. . .he did not say that "eternal" was not a good fit for Mt 25:46.

He did. You weren't listening and drawing the proper conclusions. If "aionios" does not mean "eternal" in any of the other verses that he pointed out, then it cannot mean eternal in Matthew 25:46. You don't get to change a word's meaning to fit your preconceptions.


Now tell me something....why does it bother you to think that God is so good, loving, wise, and forgiving that He would not send people to an eternal hell of torment? You haven't been this way, but some people get pretty indignant at the idea of God not having an eternal torture chamber.
The only thing that bothers me is altering the Word of God, which is what this does.

You need to ask yourself this: if this word so clearly meant "eternal" and eternal hell was so clearly taught in the Scriptures, then how did the Greek-speaking Fathers of the Early Church so clearly miss this? I'm speaking of men who are considered saints like St. Gregory of Nyssa and St. Isaac of Syria, among others. If this idea of eternal hell was so clear in the Scriptures, how come in the first 500 years, four of six theological schools taught Apokatastasis instead of eternal damnation from their Greek texts. You know the only school that taught eternal damnation. Rome. Yes, the Latin-speaking Romans who didn't understand Greek and mangled the translations of the texts from Greek to Latin.

Just curious for your personal reasons, if you don't mind.
No personal reasons whatsoever, either way.
My only interest is that I believe God's mind, not my own.

So God's mind in the beginning at the Creation was, "I'm gonna create a bunch of sentient beings who will fall into sin and then torture them forever." You can't get around this because as David Bentley Hart says, protology is eschatology, that is the beginning defines the end. Every action a person does is ordered to a telos, a goal or ending. If God knew, being Omniscient, that after He created mankind, mankind would fall into sin, billions would sin and be tossed into torment forever, with no respite to their misery, and yet He created them anyway, then you have to admit that this was His will. This was the goal for them from the beginning, which makes Calvinist doctrine (that sick, warped, degenerate view of our loving Father) correct.

I am most comfortable with whatever he does, because all that he does is good and right, whether I think so or not.

Your statement reminds me of a discussion I had at Emmanuel Baptist Church many decades ago as a young man. We were standing in the foyer after a "Revival Meeting" and the discussion turned to those who had never heard the Gospel and their end. I don't remember the exact words now, it being almost 40 years ago, but the sum of the statement in their regard was "Meaaaaa....too bad. They deserve it."

You know, it's pretty easy to say, "Well, I'm comfortable with whatever He does" as long as it isn't YOUR GOOSE that's getting par-boiled!!

You haven't yet gotten out of God 101. . .
He's God, you're not.
He judges you, you don't judge him.
He is not accountable to you, you re accountable to him.

That's right, He's God and He is described in Scripture as love. And love simply does not do such things to poor, weak, fallible creatures which were created for His pleasure. Unless, of course, His pleasure is to torment them forever. But if He is love, then tormenting them is not His pleasure and could not be.

His ways are higher than our ways, and
his thoughts are higher than our thoughts, etc, etc, etc.

I get nauseated when I hear this as an excuse for torturing souls forever without either purpose or end. His ways are not our ways. In other words, what we, broken and sinful human beings that we are, would never consider doing - i.e. torturing someone without the slightest relief, mercy, or purpose, He would do???

You really need to sit down and meditate on the sort of character you are assigning to Him. What you believe in is more like Zeus than Jesus!

Oh. And PS.....it is not we who are "altering the Word of God." That was done by Augustine and Jerome many centuries ago and carried forward by the Roman Catholic Church as a way to terrorize the population into submission to the pope and the Church.

 

[Saint Steven]

Well, you finally forced me to watch the video. . .

1) The speaker does not state that "eternal" life is not a good fit for Mt 25:46, he states
"there are other verses where it does not fit the context." (as it does in Mt 25:46)

2) The speaker addresses the verses where "eternal" is not a good fit for aionios,
but he does not mention the 40 verses where "eternal" is a good fit for aionios.
So what's his point?

Thanks for watching the video, but you must have missed the very end where he explained Mt 25:46.

According to the video, it should be translated to read: "in the age [to come]". Like this:

“Then they will go away to punishment in the age [to come], but the righteous to life in the age [to come].”

 

[Saint Steven]

Then what difference does it make if aionios is translated incorrectly in some of the verses?

Those mistranslated verses are the backbone of Damnationism. A backbone I wish to break. Remove the backbone of Damnationism and it becomes the invertebrate that I know it to be.

Why was Jesus sent into the world? Did Jesus succeed or fail?

1 John 4:14
And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.

 

[Clare73]

Tell it to the Bible scholar. . .he did not say that "eternal" was not a good "fit" for Mt 25:46.

He did. You weren't listening and drawing the proper conclusions. If "aionios" does not mean "eternal" in any of the other verses that he pointed out, then it cannot mean eternal in Matthew 25:46. You don't get to change a word's meaning to fit your preconceptions.
Okay, forget your issue with aionios.
You've still got the problem of eternal hell in Mk 9:43, 47-48; Mt 12:32; Lk 3:17; Rev 14:11, 19:2, 3, 20:15, 21:8.
It is on the authority of the above nine verses that the fire in the following nine verses is eternal--
Mt 5:22, 12:31, 32, 13:30, 18:8, 9, 25:41, 46; Mk 9:45; Lk 16:24--that's 16 verses
from the mouth of Jesus himself who, by the way, is the only one who reveals hell and its eternal (everlasting) fire to us.
So what more do you need? . . .enough already.
Stop darkening the counsel of God with words without knowledge.

Now tell me something....why does it bother you to think that God is so good, loving, wise, and forgiving that He would not send people to an eternal hell of torment? You haven't been this way, but some people get pretty indignant at the idea of God not having an eternal torture chamber.
The only thing that bothers me is altering the Word of God, which is what this does.

You need to ask yourself this: if this word so clearly meant "eternal" and eternal hell was so clearly taught in the Scriptures, then how did the Greek-speaking Fathers of the Early Church so clearly miss this?
In light of the eight verses above, you'll have to ask the Fathers.

I'm speaking of men who are considered saints like St. Gregory of Nyssa and St. Isaac of Syria, among others. If this idea of eternal hell was so clear in the Scriptures, how come in the first 500 years, four of six theological schools taught Apokatastasis instead of eternal damnation from their Greek texts. You know the only school that taught eternal damnation. Rome. Yes, the Latin-speaking Romans who didn't understand Greek and mangled the translations of the texts from Greek to Latin.
Just curious for your personal reasons, if you don't mind.

No personal reasons whatsoever, either way.
My only interest is that it's God's mind I am believing, not my own.

So God's mind in the beginning at the Creation was, "I'm gonna create a bunch of sentient beings who will fall into sin and then torture them forever."
God's mind is the Word of God written, taken at its word.

You can't get around this because as David Bentley Hart says, protology is eschatology, that is the beginning defines the end. Every action a person does is ordered to a telos, a goal or ending. If God knew, being Omniscient, that after He created mankind, mankind would fall into sin, billions would sin and be tossed into torment forever, with no respite to their misery, and yet He created them anyway, then you have to admit that this was His will.
Agreed.

That is the core "problem" of Christianity that can't be avoided if God is all knowing.
I can't help but notice the two differing ways we deal with it.

I say, "How can that be?" and set out to read the Bible from Ge 1:1 to Bonded Leather, wherein
I learned the answer.

You say, "It cannot be, therefore, the Bible is in error."

This was the goal for them from the beginning, which makes Calvinist doctrine (that sick, warped, degenerate view of our loving Father) correct.

I am most comfortable with whatever he does, because all that he does is good and right, whether I think so or not.
Your statement reminds me of a discussion I had at Emmanuel Baptist Church many decades ago as a young man. We were standing in the foyer after a "Revival Meeting" and the discussion turned to those who had never heard the Gospel and their end. I don't remember the exact words now, it being almost 40 years ago, but the sum of the statement in their regard was "Meaaaaa....too bad. They deserve it."

You know, it's pretty easy to say, "Well, I'm comfortable with whatever He does" as long as it isn't YOUR GOOSE that's getting par-boiled!!

You haven't yet gotten out of God 101. . .
He's God, you're not.
He judges you, you don't judge him.
He is not accountable to you, you're accountable to him.
That's right, He's God and He is described in Scripture as love. And love simply does not do such things to poor, weak, fallible creatures which were created for His pleasure. Unless, of course, His pleasure is to torment them forever. But if He is love, then tormenting them is not His pleasure and could not be.

His thoughts are not our thoughts
our ways are not his ways
as the heavens are higher than the earth, so
his ways are higher than our ways, and
his thoughts are higher than our thoughts, etc, etc, etc.
I get nauseated when I hear this as an excuse for torturing souls forever without either purpose or end. His ways are not our ways. In other words, what we, broken and sinful human beings that we are, would never consider doing - i.e. torturing someone without the slightest relief, mercy, or purpose, He would do???

You really need to sit down and meditate on the sort of character you are assigning to Him. What you believe in is more like Zeus than Jesus!
Your issue is with the Word of God written, not me.

Oh. And PS.....it is not we who are "altering the Word of God." That was done by Augustine and Jerome many centuries ago and carried forward by the Roman Catholic Church as a way to terrorize the population into submission to the pope and the Church.
That problem is resolved in my second response above.

Feeler: How do you feel about the fact that all God's works are for his glory through the glory of his Son, Jesus Christ?

 

[Clare73]

Thanks for watching the video, but you must have missed the very end where he explained Mt 25:46.

According to the video, it should be translated to read: "in the age [to come]". Like this:

“Then they will go away to punishment in the age [to come], but the righteous to life in the age [to come].”

According to NT didactics, the "age to come" is eternity.

 

[Clare73]

Those mistranslated verses are the backbone of Damnationism. A backbone I wish to break. Remove the backbone of Damnationism and it becomes the invertebrate that I know it to be.

Why was Jesus sent into the world? Did Jesus succeed or fail?

Jesus was sent into the world to atone for the sins of those his Father gave him, i.e., his sheep.
Jesus does not fail.

1 John 4:14
And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the
Savior of the world.

Gentiles as well as Jews.
.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

God gave me a new and higher faculty than reason at my rebirth--faith.
Now my reason serves my faith, not unbelief.

I take my understanding of God from his own revelation of himself, not from my own sentiments.

What you don't realize is that at the Final Judgment, those who are condemned don't want to be in God's heaven praising him for all eternity. That idea is repugnant to them.

Hell is the only other alternative.

Oh my lovely sister in Christ, do you have faith in Jesus' mission to save the world from condemnation (John 3:17), that he raises the dead, restores sight to the blind, heals the sick, maketh the lame to dance like deer, frees the captives and liberates the slaves?

Do you have faith in God's power and divine will to fulfill His reiterated sworn oath that ALL mankind will bow and confess? (Isaiah 45:23, Romans 14:11, Philippians 2:10, Revelation 15:4)

Or do you place your faith in the power of the fallen creature's will to foil God's plan of salvation from a to z? Would you render God's right arm as shortened and withered? Are some nuts just too tough for poor God to crack? By no means!

The idea of praising God is repugnant to all who don't know Jesus (the dead, the lost, the blind, the sick, the fallen). But 'to know him is to love him', and that knowledge saves (Hosea 4:6). See, the heart bears the manufacturer's imprimatur, God knows exactly how to draw all men to him (John 12:32) and replace the heart of stone with a heart of flesh (Ezekiel 36:26). We love Him because He loved us first (1 John 4:19).

The final judgment is about setting right, not getting even. God's justice is universal, righteous, restorative and salvific. 'Behold I am making all things new!' (Revelation 21:5). The lake of fire is the super-mikveh (ritual bath) outside the temple filled with pure fiery essence of God that issues from the throne (Daniel 7:10). It's purpose is to refine the dross (Malachi 3:2) and scrub the filth from the wool (Isaiah 1:18). And when death the last enemy is destroyed (1 Corinthians 15:26), what remains? It's LIFE, Zoe. Then Jesus delivers up the package to God with a big bow on it, so that He may be all in all (1 Corinthians 15:28). Exitus et reditus.

Otherwise, how can the nations who molest Jerusalem as satan's army (Revelation 20:7) survive the heavenly fire (Revelation 20:9) and/or the lake of fire treatment (Revelation 20:15 and 21:8) and return to worship (Revelation 21:24-26) and be healed (Revelation 22:2b)? Miracles are commonplace in the Kingdom.

Do you believe wolf will lie down with lamb (without lamb in wolf's belly) (Isaiah 11:6, 65:25), or do you believe the refuseniks are to be marooned to burn forever without hope of release? Does Jesus flip them the screech-owl and abandon that last sheep to the treacherous mountains?

So Miss deClare-my-Faith, are you ready to put all your hope and faith in the total victory of the Salvation of Yah, or is your claim mere self-righteous bluster?

 

[Gottservant]

I know something about this...

...the bowls of the wrath of God, are no longer full - thanks to Jesus.

But fools insist, the wrath of God be drunk, despite it's power!

 

[Saint Steven]

According to NT didactics, the "age to come" is eternity.

No. Only God is eternal. The ages will continue, one after another.
If what you call "eternity" has a beginning, then it is not eternal.

 

[Saint Steven]

Jesus was sent into the world to atone for the sins of those his Father gave him, i.e., his sheep.
Jesus does not fail.

I guess we can agree on that.

1 John 2:2
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

1 Corinthians 15:22-24
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. 24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power.

 

[Clare73]

Oh my lovely sister in Christ, do you have faith in Jesus' mission to save the world from condemnation (John 3:17), that he raises the dead, restores sight to the blind, heals the sick, maketh the lame to dance like deer, frees the captives and liberates the slaves?

Do you have faith in God's power and divine will to fulfill His reiterated sworn oath that
ALL mankind will bow and confess? (Isaiah 45:23, Romans 14:11, Philippians 2:10, Revelation 15:4)

You're missing the most glorious part of that verse: even the damned will agree with God at the Judgment. . .they won't love him, but they'll agree (confess) that he is right and just.

Or do you place your faith in the power of the fallen creature's will to foil God's plan of salvation from a to z? Would you render God's right arm as shortened and withered? Are some nuts just too tough for poor God to crack? By no means!

The idea of praising God is repugnant to all who don't know Jesus (the dead, the lost, the blind, the sick, the fallen). But 'to know him is to love him', and that knowledge saves (Hosea 4:6). See, the heart bears the manufacturer's imprimatur, God knows exactly how to draw all men to him (John 12:32) and replace the heart of stone with a heart of flesh (Ezekiel 36:26). We love Him because He loved us first (1 John 4:19).

The final judgment is about setting right, not getting even. God's justice is universal, righteous, restorative and salvific. 'Behold I am making all things new!' (Revelation 21:5). The lake of fire is the super-mikveh (ritual bath) outside the temple filled with pure fiery essence of God that issues from the throne (Daniel 7:10). It's purpose is to refine the dross (Malachi 3:2) and scrub the filth from the wool (Isaiah 1:18). And when death the last enemy is destroyed (1 Corinthians 15:26), what remains? It's LIFE, Zoe. Then Jesus delivers up the package to God with a big bow on it, so that He may be all in all (1 Corinthians 15:28). Exitus et reditus.

Somewhat loose handling of Scripture.
The bath outside the Temple does not come into contact with any wool.
The laver (bath outside the Temple) was for the washing of the priest (Ex 30:19, 40:12;
Lev 8:6, 16:4), making his scarlet and crimson sin white as snow and wool (Isa 1:18).

Otherwise, how can the nations who molest Jerusalem as satan's army (Revelation 20:7) survive the heavenly fire (Revelation 20:9) and/or the lake of fire treatment (Revelation 20:15 and 21:8) and return to worship (Revelation 21:24-26) and be healed (Revelation 22:2b)? Miracles are commonplace in the Kingdom.

Nice metaphorical summation by the mind of man. . .it's just not the mind of God in his Word written.

Do you believe wolf will lie down with lamb (without lamb in wolf's belly) (Isaiah 11:6, 65:25), or do you believe the refuseniks are to be marooned to burn forever without hope of release? Does Jesus flip them the screech-owl and abandon that last sheep to the treacherous mountains?

So Miss deClare-my-Faith, are you ready to put all your hope and faith in the total victory of the Salvation of Yah, or is your claim mere self-righteous bluster?

My faith is in Jesus Christ and his atoning work for the remission of my sin,
giving me right standing (justification, not guilty) with God.

All my righteousness is the righteousness of Jesus Christ credited to me through faith, as it was to Abraham (Ge 15:6).

The only "bluster" I see going on is the rearranging of the Word of God to alter its meaning.

 

[Clare73]

No. Only God is eternal. The ages will continue, one after another.
If what you call "eternity" has a beginning, then it is not eternal.

Okay. . .in NT didactics, the age to come is unending in the new creation.

And this remains:

"Eternal" is used two ways in the NT:
1) eternal - without end (quantitative),
2) eternal life - God's own life within one's spirit (qualitative).

In light of Mk 9:43, 44, 46, 48; Mt 3:12; Rev 14:11, 19:2, 3, 20:15, 21:8
where Jesus presents unending fire and torment (Mk 9:48: Rev 14:11), and
which are the authority for all translation of "eternal" life, "eternal" death, and "eternal" fire,
the above is precisely true.

 

[Clare73]

I guess we can agree on that.

1 John 2:2
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of
the whole world.

Gentiles as well as Jews.

1 Corinthians 15:22-24
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. 24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power.

All who are in Christ will be made alive. . .at the resurrection at the end of time, followed by the everlasting age of the new creation.

 

[Clare73]

The next "age" is eternity.

Nope. The last book of the Bible speaks of "ages of ages" which are yet to come, not one final age.

NT didactics present only one age to come, which is never-ending.
They allow for no other age to follow.