Null/Voided Out

[Dkh587]

WHERE does it say anything about Jesus' wrath and vengeance when He returns to finalize the Kingdom? I sure don't see it, and it seems out of character with the One who said from the Cross "Father, forgive them for they don't know what they do."

The scriptures speak of his wrath when he (Christ) returns, specifically the destruction of those who don’t know God, and those who do not obey Christ - 2 Thessalonians 1:6-10

do you not think that Christ returns to finalize the kingdom of God?

When he returns, he said he’s sending the angels to weed out the wicked from the kingdom - Matthew 13:41 and that when he returns, he will be judging the world once and for all Matthew 25:31-46

 

[Saint Steven]

The scriptures speak of his wrath when he (Christ) returns, specifically the destruction of those who don’t know God, and those who do not obey Christ - 2 Thessalonians 1:6-10

do you not think that Christ returns to finalize the kingdom of God?

When he returns, he said he’s sending the angels to weed out the wicked from the kingdom - Matthew 13:41 and that when he returns, he will be judging the world once and for all Matthew 25:31-46

FYI: Matthew 25:31-46 is a Damnationist text, not an Annihilationist text.

Matthew 25:46
“Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

 

[Dkh587]

This is one of five or six "You have heard that it was said... But I tell you..." statements in Matthew chapter five. So, this was common Jewish understanding of the law. I think you are right, There is no specific reference in the books of the Law. But Jesus is correcting the common understanding about hating your enemy.

Saint Steven said: ↑
Matthew 5:43-48
“You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47 And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

I do agree that he was correcting their misunderstanding regarding some of the commandments, but the Law just doesn’t say to hate your enemy, but actually teaches the opposite: doing good to your enemies when the opportunity arises. When the army surrounded Elisha, he blinded them, and showed them mercy rather than

Remember, Christ said the 2nd most important commandment is to love our neighbor as ourself, quoted from Leviticus 19:18, a commandment from long ago instructing us to not seek vengeance or bear a grudge, but to love.

2 Kings 6:8-22 has the textbook example of Elisha loving his enemies, and giving them food and drink, rather than killing them.

God does good things to the wicked/those who hate him every day. We should do the same!

 

[Dkh587]

FYI: Matthew 25:31-46 is a Damnationist text, not an Annihilationist text.

Matthew 25:46
“Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

It depends on the view a person has on what Christ is referring to when he says “punishment”.

if we view punishment as torture, then we will look at that verse and think Christ is teaching the eternal torture of the wicked.

if we view punishment as destruction, then we will look at the verse and think Christ is teaching that the wicked will be destroyed and never return.

2 Thessalonians 1:8-9

In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power

Paul uses the term destruction here, because, in my view, he understands that Christ is destroying the wicked, not torturing them forever.

 

[Saint Steven]

I do agree that he was correcting their misunderstanding regarding some of the commandments, but the Law just doesn’t say to hate your enemy, but actually teaches the opposite: doing good to your enemies when the opportunity arises. When the army surrounded Elisha, he blinded them, and showed them mercy rather than

Remember, Christ said the 2nd most important commandment is to love our neighbor as ourself, quoted from Leviticus 19:18, a commandment from long ago instructing us to not seek vengeance or bear a grudge, but to love.

2 Kings 6:8-22 has the textbook example of Elisha loving his enemies, and giving them food and drink, rather than killing them.

God does good things to the wicked/those who hate him every day. We should do the same!

Excellent. Now apply that to the final judgment. Thanks.

 

[Saint Steven]

if we view punishment as destruction, then we will look at the verse and think Christ is teaching that the wicked will be destroyed and never return.

What is "eternal" about that? (or "everlasting", as you prefer) Actually defined as eon, or age. (see Young's Literal Translation)

Saint Steven said: ↑
FYI: Matthew 25:31-46 is a Damnationist text, not an Annihilationist text.

Matthew 25:46
“Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

 

[Dkh587]

Excellent. Now apply that to the final judgment. Thanks.

Why would God’s final judgement be any different than his previous judgements where the righteous were spared, and the wicked were destroyed, such as the flood in Noah’s day?

what about Sodom & Gomorrah, who were destroyed by fire?

Peter taught that Sodom & Gomorrah’s destruction is a lesson on what happens to the wicked 2 Peter 2:6

What happened to Sodom & Gomorrah? Did God show them love and give them a hug? No, he destroyed them.

Christ even compares his return to the destruction of Sodom & Gomorrah.

 

[Dkh587]

What is "eternal" about that? (or "everlasting", as you prefer) Actually defined as eon, or age. (see Young's Literal Translation)

Saint Steven said: ↑
FYI: Matthew 25:31-46 is a Damnationist text, not an Annihilationist text.

Matthew 25:46
“Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

I’m not sure I understand the question.

 

[Saint Steven]

Why would God’s final judgement be any different than his previous judgements where the righteous were spared, and the wicked were destroyed, such as the flood in Noah’s day?

what about Sodom & Gomorrah, who were destroyed by fire?

Peter taught that Sodom & Gomorrah’s destruction is a lesson on what happens to the wicked 2 Peter 2:6

What happened to Sodom & Gomorrah? Did God show them love and give them a hug? No, he destroyed them.

Christ even compares his return to the destruction of Sodom & Gomorrah.

Here you go.

The restoration of Sodom and Gomorrah from "eternal" fire (see Ezekiel 16:53 below)

Jude 1:7
In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.

Zephaniah 2:9
Therefore, as surely as I live,”
declares the Lord Almighty,
the God of Israel,
“surely Moab will become like Sodom,
the Ammonites like Gomorrah—
a place of weeds and salt pits,
a wasteland forever.
The remnant of my people will plunder them;
the survivors of my nation will inherit their land.”

Ezekiel 16:53
“‘However, I will restore the fortunes of Sodom and her daughters and of Samaria and her daughters, and your fortunes along with them,


The restoration of Ammon and Moab

Zephaniah 2:9
Therefore, as surely as I live,”
declares the Lord Almighty,
the God of Israel,
“surely Moab will become like Sodom,
the Ammonites like Gomorrah—
a place of weeds and salt pits,
a wasteland forever.
The remnant of my people will plunder them;
the survivors of my nation will inherit their land.”

Jeremiah 25:22, 27
21 Edom, Moab and Ammon; ...
27 “Then tell them, ‘This is what the Lord Almighty, the God of Israel, says:
Drink, get drunk and vomit, and fall to rise no more because of the sword I will send among you.’

Jeremiah 49:6
“Yet afterward, I will restore the fortunes of the Ammonites,”
declares the Lord.

Jeremiah 48:4, 47
4 Moab will be broken;
her little ones will cry out.
47 “Yet I will restore the fortunes of Moab
in days to come,”
declares the Lord.
Here ends the judgment on Moab.


The restoration of Elam

Jeremiah 25:25, 27
25 all the kings of Zimri, Elam and Media; ...
27 “Then tell them, ‘This is what the Lord Almighty, the God of Israel, says:
Drink, get drunk and vomit, and fall to rise no more because of the sword I will send among you.’

Jeremiah 49:39
“Yet I will restore the fortunes of Elam
in days to come,”
declares the Lord.


The restoration of Egypt

Jeremiah 25:19, 27
19 Pharaoh king of Egypt, his attendants, his officials and all his people, ...
27 “Then tell them, ‘This is what the Lord Almighty, the God of Israel, says:
Drink, get drunk and vomit, and fall to rise no more because of the sword I will send among you.’

Ezekiel 29:13-14
“‘Yet this is what the Sovereign Lord says: At the end of forty years I will gather the Egyptians from the nations where they were scattered.
14 I will bring them back from captivity and return them to Upper Egypt, the land of their ancestry. There they will be a lowly kingdom.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Edom

Edom was an ancient kingdom in Transjordan located between Moab to the northeast, the Arabah to the west and the Arabian Desert to the south and east. Most of its former territory is now divided between Israel and Jordan.

The destruction of Edom uses the same exaggerated language descriptions as hell in the Bible. Yet none of it lasted forever as it clearly says. And you can certainly pass through it today. For this prophecy to be taken literally it would need to be a smoking tar pit with a bypass to get around it.

Isaiah 34:8-11
For the Lord has a day of vengeance,
a year of retribution, to uphold Zion’s cause.
9 Edom’s streams will be turned into pitch,
her dust into burning sulfur;
her land will become blazing pitch!
10 It will not be quenched night or day;
its smoke will rise forever.
From generation to generation it will lie desolate;
no one will ever pass through it again.
11 The desert owl and screech owl will possess it;
the great owl and the raven will nest there.
God will stretch out over Edom
the measuring line of chaos
and the plumb line of desolation.

 

[Saint Steven]

I’m not sure I understand the question.

How can the wicked "be destroyed and never return" if their their punishment/destruction is "everlasting" or "eternal"?

Dkh587 said: ↑
if we view punishment as destruction, then we will look at the verse and think Christ is teaching that the wicked will be destroyed and never return.

 

[Dkh587]

Just a basic understanding of fairness. We are talking about countless billions who have never known the God we know, or who have never "heard the law". You say that they will perish or be destroyed. For what crime exactly?

Dkh587 said: ↑
According to Paul, the ones that don’t know God will be destroyed by Jesus when he returns
2 Thessalonians 1:7-10 ESV

Dkh587 said: ↑
Paul also teaches that those who have never had or heard the law will perish as well.
Romans 2:6-16 ESV

The reason I ask, is because fairness can and does vary from person to person. What’s fair to you might not be fair to me, and vice versa.

Would you agree that a person is, for example, worshipping an idol, even if they don’t know what an idol is?

 

[Saint Steven]

The reason I ask, is because fairness can and does vary from person to person. What’s fair to you might not be fair to me, and vice versa.

Would you agree that a person is, for example, worshipping an idol, even if they don’t know what an idol is?

No rational human would agree that person should be killed/destroyed for not knowing something, or having never heard of something.

Saint Steven said: ↑
Just a basic understanding of fairness. We are talking about countless billions who have never known the God we know, or who have never "heard the law". You say that they will perish or be destroyed. For what crime exactly?

Dkh587 said: ↑
According to Paul, the ones that don’t know God will be destroyed by Jesus when he returns
2 Thessalonians 1:7-10 ESV

Dkh587 said: ↑
Paul also teaches that those who have never had or heard the law will perish as well.
Romans 2:6-16 ESV

 

[Dkh587]

How can the wicked "be destroyed and never return" if their their punishment/destruction is "everlasting" or "eternal"?

Dkh587 said: ↑
if we view punishment as destruction, then we will look at the verse and think Christ is teaching that the wicked will be destroyed and never return.

That’s what eternal destruction means - there’s no coming back. The destruction is not reversible - it’s eternal/everlasting.

The punishment is destruction
The punishment is eternal.

They won’t be destroyed and come back, say, 15 years later. They will be destroyed, and remain destroyed forever.

 

[Dkh587]

No rational human would agree that person should be killed/destroyed for not knowing something, or having never heard of something.

Saint Steven said: ↑
Just a basic understanding of fairness. We are talking about countless billions who have never known the God we know, or who have never "heard the law". You say that they will perish or be destroyed. For what crime exactly?

Dkh587 said: ↑
According to Paul, the ones that don’t know God will be destroyed by Jesus when he returns
2 Thessalonians 1:7-10 ESV

Dkh587 said: ↑
Paul also teaches that those who have never had or heard the law will perish as well.
Romans 2:6-16 ESV

Yet that is what the Apostle Paul taught, that Christ will destroy those that do not know God.

why did Hosea say God’s people were destroyed? It was from a lack of what?

Hosea 4:6

My people are destroyed because of a lack of knowledge

 

[ViaCrucis]

Wrath is the experience of corruption in the presence of the pure and holy.

From a Lutheran POV this sounds very Lutheran.

God's wrath is about our perception of God, namely God hidden behind the veil of His glory, holiness, and Law as seen from the vantage point of us in our sin. Thus the sinner sees the hidden God (Deus absconditus), His face hidden away, veiled behind the curtain of His holiness.

It is only when, in faith, we behold God revealed (Deus revelatus) in Christ that we can behold God's face. And it is through the Son, made flesh and in weakness, that we behold the Father (even as the Lord Himself says). Thus as Luther says,

"This is to behold God in faith, that you should look upon His fatherly, friendly heart, in which there is no anger nor ungraciousness. He who sees God as angry does not see Him rightly, but looks only on a curtain as if a dark cloud had been drawn across His face."

-CryptoLutheran

 

[martymonster]

I am an annihilationist, so I don’t think God burns people forever.

OK, that's better than an a tormentist, but there are still huge problems with it.

 

[Light of the East]

QUOTE="Dkh587

The scriptures speak of his wrath when he (Christ) returns, specifically the destruction of those who don’t know God, and those who do not obey Christ - 2 Thessalonians 1:6-10.

Not the end of the world. Destruction of Jerusalem. AD70. Already done.

do you not think that Christ returns to finalize the kingdom of God?

Not the end of the world. Destruction of Jerusalem. AD70. Already done

When he returns, he said he’s sending the angels to weed out the wicked from the kingdom - Matthew 13:41 and that when he returns, he will be judging the world once and for all Matthew 25:31-46

Not the end of the world. Destruction of Jerusalem. AD70. Already done

 

[Light of the East]

It depends on the view a person has on what Christ is referring to when he says “punishment”.

if we view punishment as torture, then we will look at that verse and think Christ is teaching the eternal torture of the wicked.

if we view punishment as destruction, then we will look at the verse and think Christ is teaching that the wicked will be destroyed and never return.

2 Thessalonians 1:8-9

Paul uses the term destruction here, because, in my view, he understands that Christ is destroying the wicked, not torturing them forever.

So God created mankind for the specific purpose of annihilating the most of them forever? You get to be alive, experience life, then get snuffed out?

Kinda makes the Cross an exercise in futility, wouldn't you say? Unless, of course, it was God's plan from the beginning to either exterminate 95% of the people who would ever live. Or torment them forever.

Which would make Him a sadist.

 

[Light of the East]

It depends on the view a person has on what Christ is referring to when he says “punishment”.

if we view punishment as torture, then we will look at that verse and think Christ is teaching the eternal torture of the wicked.

if we view punishment as destruction, then we will look at the verse and think Christ is teaching that the wicked will be destroyed and never return.

2 Thessalonians 1:8-9

Paul uses the term destruction here, because, in my view, he understands that Christ is destroying the wicked, not torturing them forever.

Doesn't say that at all:

2Thessalonians 1:8

in flaming fire, giving vengeance to those not knowing God, and to those not obeying the good news of our Lord Jesus Christ; 9 who shall suffer justice -- destruction age-during -- from the face of the Lord, and from the glory of his strength, (Young's Literal Translation of the Greek. The KJV is a sorry mess!!)

aionios (age-lasting) olethros (destruction?? Let's see what it means in Greek)

ruin, destroy, death

1. 1. for the destruction of the flesh, said of the external ills and troubles by which the lusts of the flesh are subdued and destroyed

So it could mean that in the age to come and lasting for that whole age, the lusts of the flesh will be destroyed within the wicked. Which is what Universalism teaches, that the chastening of God's love is for the destruction of those passions which have ensnared us.

So again - which was it? Did God create towards the goal of having most of mankind eternally destroyed, or did He crate mankind for theosis (deification)? Every creative act undertaken has a goal to which it is headed. If the goal was theosis for mankind, then the will of God will prevail, which is what 1 Timothy 2:4 says also - i.e. that the will of God is that all be saved.

Or would the God who is love create beings to simply destroy them in the fashion of a bratty child pulling wings off a fly?

 

[Saint Steven]

That’s what eternal destruction means - there’s no coming back. The destruction is not reversible - it’s eternal/everlasting.

The punishment is destruction
The punishment is eternal.

They won’t be destroyed and come back, say, 15 years later. They will be destroyed, and remain destroyed forever.

As opposed to what? Temporary destruction? Destruction is destruction.