Null/Voided Out

[Dkh587]

Do you think God will do something worse to our enemies than we could do to them ourselves? Or do you think he is protecting them from us?

He might, he could, or he might not do something worse than we could do to them ourselves. It could go several ways.

 

[martymonster]

It’s weird to me how people like to focus only on the mushy “love” of God, and act like Jesus is some passive hippy who only “loves everyone”, when we are taught about Jesus’ wrath and vengeance on the wicked when he returns to finalize the kingdom of God here on the earth.

God’s character is consistent throughout the whole of Scripture.

There is nothing "mushy" about God's love. God's love is real love....
like the love a father has for his children.

 

[Dkh587]

What about the countless billions that have never so much as heard the name of Jesus? What becomes of them?

According to Paul, the ones that don’t know God will be destroyed by Jesus when he returns

2 Thessalonians 1:7-10 ESV

when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.

They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might, when he comes on that day to be glorified in his saints, and to be marveled at among all who have believed, because our testimony to you was believed.

Paul also teaches that those who have never had or heard the law will perish as well.

Romans 2:6-16 ESV

God will render to each one according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; but for those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury.

There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek, but glory and honor and peace for everyone who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek.

For God shows no partiality.

For all who have sinned without the law will also perish without the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law* on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus.

*I removed verses 13-15 as they are in parenthesis, and I am of the belief that anything in parenthesis is not originally in the manuscript, and is commentary added by somebody later on. The KJV has 13-15 in parenthesis.

 

[Dkh587]

There is nothing "mushy" about God's love. God's love is real love....
like the love a father has for his children.

I don’t think God’s love is mushy. A true good father loves his children, but that love entails chastisement. In fact, the Scriptures teach that men who don’t chastise their kids don’t love them at all.

Proverbs 13:24 ESV

Whoever spares the rod hates his son, but he who loves him is diligent to discipline him.

Look at what Moses taught the Israelites:

Deuteronomy 8:4-6 ESV

Your clothing did not wear out on you and your foot did not swell these forty years.

Know then in your heart that, as a man disciplines his son, Yahweh your God disciplines you.

So you shall keep the commandments of Yahweh your God by walking in his ways and by fearing him.

Proverbs 3:11-12 ESV

My son, do not despise the discipline of Yahweh or be weary of his reproof, for Yahweh reproves him whom he loves, as a father the son in whom he delights.

Hebrews 12:5-11 ESV

And have you forgotten the exhortation that addresses you as sons?

“My son, do not regard lightly the discipline of Yahweh, nor be weary when reproved by him. For Yahweh disciplines the one he loves, and chastises every son whom he receives.”

It is for discipline that you have to endure.

God is treating you as sons.

For what son is there whom his father does not discipline?

If you are left without discipline, in which all have participated, then you are illegitimate children and not sons.

Besides this, we have had earthly fathers who disciplined us and we respected them.

Shall we not much more be subject to the Father of spirits and live?

For they disciplined us for a short time as it seemed best to them, but he disciplines us for our good, that we may share his holiness.

For the moment all discipline seems painful rather than pleasant, but later it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it.

 

[Sheila Davis]

I just gave you Bible to discuss. But you refuse. What are you afraid of?

Saint Steven said: ↑
Are you sure? What do you make of this?

Anyone who has knees to bow and a tongue to speak, in heaven and on earth and under the earth (in the realm of the dead), will whole-heartedly, and without reservation, acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord. No one can say that “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit. If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” you will be saved. Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living. (the reason for the bodily resurrection)

Philippians 2:10-11
that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

1 Corinthians 12:3
Therefore I want you to know that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says,
“Jesus be cursed,” and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit.

Romans 10:9
If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart
that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Romans 14:9
For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that
he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living.

Note on "acknowledge" in Philippians 2:11 from Strong's Concordance
S1843 eksomologéō (from 1537 /ek, "wholly out from," intensifying 3670 /homologéō, "say the same thing about") – properly, fully agree and to acknowledge that agreement openly (whole-heartedly); hence, to confess ("openly declare"), without reservation (no holding back).

I just gave you Bible to discuss. But you refuse. What are you afraid of?

Saint Steven said: ↑
Are you sure? What do you make of this?

Anyone who has knees to bow and a tongue to speak, in heaven and on earth and under the earth (in the realm of the dead), will whole-heartedly, and without reservation, acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord. No one can say that “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit. If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” you will be saved. Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living. (the reason for the bodily resurrection)

Philippians 2:10-11
that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

1 Corinthians 12:3
Therefore I want you to know that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says,
“Jesus be cursed,” and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit.

Romans 10:9
If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart
that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Romans 14:9
For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that
he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living.

Note on "acknowledge" in Philippians 2:11 from Strong's Concordance
S1843 eksomologéō (from 1537 /ek, "wholly out from," intensifying 3670 /homologéō, "say the same thing about") – properly, fully agree and to acknowledge that agreement openly (whole-heartedly); hence, to confess ("openly declare"), without reservation (no holding back).

AFRAID _ wrong word. You and I have had a discussion. I don't know what you call it - definition of discussion is to have a conversation on a topic between two or more people, we have had conversations with an s. To go any further it's pointless. That's the word I would use pointless. Besides what is written in Romans 14 starting at verse 1.

 

[Saint Steven]

Where does it say to hate your enemy?

Matthew 5:43-48
“You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47 And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

 

[Saint Steven]

He might, he could, or he might not do something worse than we could do to them ourselves. It could go several ways.

So, we can't assume God is asking us to withhold revenge because he is planning to do something worse to them than we would do. Thanks. (hold that thought)

 

[Saint Steven]

According to Paul, the ones that don’t know God will be destroyed by Jesus when he returns

2 Thessalonians 1:7-10 ESV

Explain why that's okay.

 

[Saint Steven]

Paul also teaches that those who have never had or heard the law will perish as well.

Romans 2:6-16 ESV

Same question. Explain why that is okay.

 

[Light of the East]

It’s weird to me how people like to focus only on the mushy “love” of God, and act like Jesus is some passive hippy who only “loves everyone”, when we are taught about Jesus’ wrath and vengeance on the wicked when he returns to finalize the kingdom of God here on the earth.

God’s character is consistent throughout the whole of Scripture.

WHERE does it say anything about Jesus' wrath and vengeance when He returns to finalize the Kingdom? I sure don't see it, and it seems out of character with the One who said from the Cross "Father, forgive them for they don't know what they do."

 

[Light of the East]

QUOTE "It seems to me that in order to understand the dogmatic premise of an eternal, conscious, never-ending hell of torments, it is necessary to go back into history, to establish its foundational seeds, and to find how and where it geminated, who watered it, and how it grew into a full-fledged fence full of theological poison ivy. This information is withheld from the average person in the pew. Indeed, most folks think that ECT is something that Jesus Himself preached, and the more fundamentalist in nature the religious body, the harder they stress it that eternal hell is a dogmatic truth."

From the blog post Understanding the Foundations of Eternal Conscious Torment – Part One

 

[Saint Steven]

AFRAID _ wrong word. You and I have had a discussion. I don't know what you call it - definition of discussion is to have a conversation on a topic between two or more people, we have had conversations with an s. To go any further it's pointless. That's the word I would use pointless. Besides what is written in Romans 14 starting at verse 1.

True or false?

Anyone who has knees to bow and a tongue to speak, in heaven and on earth and under the earth (in the realm of the dead), will whole-heartedly, and without reservation, acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord. No one can say that “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit. If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” you will be saved. Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living. (the reason for the bodily resurrection)

 

[martymonster]

I don’t think God’s love is mushy. A true good father loves his children, but that love entails chastisement. In fact, the Scriptures teach that men who don’t chastise their kids don’t love them at all.

Proverbs 13:24 ESV


Look at what Moses taught the Israelites:

Deuteronomy 8:4-6 ESV


Proverbs 3:11-12 ESV


Hebrews 12:5-11 ESV

Totally agree. I don't see how the idea of God being a father, is compatible with the idea of him burning his children in fire, for all eternity. Do you?

 

[Dkh587]

Matthew 5:43-48
“You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47 And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

Where was that said, though? Please show me.

 

[Dkh587]

So, we can't assume God is asking us to withhold revenge because he is planning to do something worse to them than we would do. Thanks. (hold that thought)

I don’t assume that, but you can’t assume he’s not planning to do something worse, either.

We are instructed to let him avenge, whatever and however that is.

 

[Dkh587]

Explain why that's okay.

Okay according to what or who? You or me? God, Jesus? Apostles?

What are we basing “okay” and “not okay” on?

 

[Saint Steven]

Where was that said, though? Please show me.

This is one of five or six "You have heard that it was said... But I tell you..." statements in Matthew chapter five. So, this was common Jewish understanding of the law. I think you are right, There is no specific reference in the books of the Law. But Jesus is correcting the common understanding about hating your enemy.

Saint Steven said: ↑
Matthew 5:43-48
“You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47 And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

 

[Saint Steven]

Okay according to what or who? You or me? God, Jesus? Apostles?

What are we basing “okay” and “not okay” on?

Just a basic understanding of fairness. We are talking about countless billions who have never known the God we know, or who have never "heard the law". You say that they will perish or be destroyed. For what crime exactly?

Dkh587 said: ↑
According to Paul, the ones that don’t know God will be destroyed by Jesus when he returns
2 Thessalonians 1:7-10 ESV

Dkh587 said: ↑
Paul also teaches that those who have never had or heard the law will perish as well.
Romans 2:6-16 ESV

 

[Dkh587]

Totally agree. I don't see how the idea of God being a father, is compatible with the idea of him burning his children in fire, for all eternity. Do you?

I am an annihilationist, so I don’t think God burns people forever.

 

[Saint Steven]

QUOTE "It seems to me that in order to understand the dogmatic premise of an eternal, conscious, never-ending hell of torments, it is necessary to go back into history, to establish its foundational seeds, and to find how and where it geminated, who watered it, and how it grew into a full-fledged fence full of theological poison ivy. This information is withheld from the average person in the pew. Indeed, most folks think that ECT is something that Jesus Himself preached, and the more fundamentalist in nature the religious body, the harder they stress it that eternal hell is a dogmatic truth."

From the blog post Understanding the Foundations of Eternal Conscious Torment – Part One

Thanks for the article link. A worthwhile read.