Not under the law

[thetruthseeker]

The legalist tells us that we should keep the Ten commandments.

He is living in the past.
God tells us "Ye are not under the law" Rom 6:14.

Accordingly, "..old things have passed away.." 2 Cor 5:17

Hi Colossians,

The question that I will pose to you is: what is being under the law?

Meanwhile consider the following:

According to the Bible, we were always under grace. Grace is not something that just surfaced in the New Testament. Please read the book of Psalms and you will see this.

Now, let's look at the word "iniquity."

Paul the same person who wrote Romans and 2 Corinithians said:

Hebrews 1:9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

The following is the original meaning of the word "iniquity."

00458:
458 anomia an-om-ee'-ah from 459; illegality, i.e. violation of law or (genitive case) wickedness:--iniquity, X transgress(-ion of) the law, unrighteousness. see GREEK for 459

Remember, Jesus said:

Matthew 7:21-23 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

1 John 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

My question to you is simply this: What law is violated or transgressed here?

Your brother in Christ,
TheTruthSeeker

 

[Tawhano]

Hello TheTruthSeeker,

Permit me to add my two cents worth here if I may?

Under law is to be in subjection to the law. The Greek for under is thus:

hupo
A primary preposition; under, that is, (with the genitive) of place (beneath), or with verbs (the agency or means, through); (with the accusative) of place (whither [underneath] or where [below]) or time (when [at]): - among, by, from, in, of, under, with. In compounds it retains the same genitive applications, especially of inferior position or condition, and specifically covertly or moderately.

It is used here as well:

Matthew 8:9
For I am a man under authority, having soldiers under me: and I say to this [man], Go, and he goeth; and to another, Come, and he cometh; and to my servant, Do this, and he doeth [it].

In this respect to be under the law is to be under its authority; to be bound by the law.

As you pointed out iniquity can mean violation of the law or wickedness. Depending on how it is used in the sentence is how you determine which meaning it is to be rendered. That is loosely what is meant by genitive case.

In the verse you quoted in Matthew the focus is on the fruits of those Jesus rebuked. There is no mention of law here so the word iniquity here is rendered wickedness.

Commandment is defined as an injunction, an authoritative prescription: - precept.

Jesus said:

John 15:10
If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

Obviously two different sets of commandments here, one of the Son’s and the other of the Father. If we love Jesus we love the Father. If we love Jesus we will keep his commandments. God’s greatest commandment was love, love for our Father and then our neighbors. Jesus’ greatest commandment was the same; love.

It is this ‘law’ that is being violated in the verses you quoted. Jesus’ command to love as he loved us.

 

[sojeru]

Hi Tawhano, give me some time and I will respond.
this is an awesome place
but, if you want which would be easier- somewhat- is to do this over the phone- Im consumed with many things right now and trying to help and figure things out- so im sure you can relate- but over the phone its much easier- I dislike computers...lol
again- I know the answers to all of this- and Point is, Messiah, not did david, nor did the priests break THE LETTER, this is what made them blameless.
AGain, if G-D says, those who break the sabbath(without the repecting of persons for it does claim this about G-D in Bible that he is not a respector of persons) and Messiah did break that- then messiah sinned- and thats as simple as it gets.
Yet we know messiah did not sin- so how can YOU conform your thoughts to Messiah not sinning and NOT BREAKING SABBATH to the Torah, there must be something in the Torah that would declare ALL OF HIS ACTIONS as just and right to do on Shabbat.
The same as David.
And since Im sure that you see know authority (not even the slightest) in Jewish writting like the Talmud, I wont give you anything from there lest you trample it.

but, PM me or email me and I'll give you my house number or you give me yours- ahh, we'll just exchange numbers.
shalom u'bracha
AntotiYah

 

[Tawhano]

Hi sojeru,
I appreciate your kind offer to discuss this matter over the phone but I must respectfully decline your offer. Unfortunately we live in a hostile world where it would be foolish to give out personal information about your self over the Internet.

Besides, if I can barely understand you in writing how much more difficult would it be in person?

Let me see if I can communicate my thoughts on why Jesus and his disciples were blameless in not observing the letter of the law.

I believe there are two aspects of the law; the letter of the law and the spirit of the law. Jesus identifies the Pharisees as being concerned with the letter of the law and not the spirit of the law. The Sabbath, Jesus tells us, was for the man and not the man for the Sabbath. The Pharisees did not see it this way.

You mentioned that David and the priest were blameless because they were ‘clean’ and therefore did not profane the Sabbath. While this is true for David it was not the reason the priest were blameless. Look at why the priest were lighting fires and cooking on the Sabbath; it was because they were commanded to. They were blameless because they did the will of God through the spirit of the law and not the letter of the law. This is the reason Jesus was blameless for not observing the Sabbath. Jesus kept the spirit of the law and not the letter of the law. Jesus was sinless not because he kept the law but because he obeyed the Father. What God commanded him to do that was what he did.

John 5:30
I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.

Jesus taught that the spirit of the law was based on love, that the letter of the law was written to teach love. Jesus fulfilled the law and brought love to our hearts through the Holy Spirit. The old was replaced by the new.

I find no commandment in the NT that compels me to follow the laws of Moses but rather that I become obedient to the new commandment of Christ; the commandment to love.

 

[thetruthseeker]

Hello TheTruthSeeker,

Permit me to add my two cents worth here if I may?

Under law is to be in subjection to the law. The Greek for under is thus:

hupo
A primary preposition; under, that is, (with the genitive) of place (beneath), or with verbs (the agency or means, through); (with the accusative) of place (whither [underneath] or where [below]) or time (when [at]): - among, by, from, in, of, under, with. In compounds it retains the same genitive applications, especially of inferior position or condition, and specifically covertly or moderately.

It is used here as well:

Matthew 8:9
For I am a man under authority, having soldiers under me: and I say to this [man], Go, and he goeth; and to another, Come, and he cometh; and to my servant, Do this, and he doeth [it].

In this respect to be under the law is to be under its authority; to be bound by the law.

As you pointed out iniquity can mean violation of the law or wickedness. Depending on how it is used in the sentence is how you determine which meaning it is to be rendered. That is loosely what is meant by genitive case.

In the verse you quoted in Matthew the focus is on the fruits of those Jesus rebuked. There is no mention of law here so the word iniquity here is rendered wickedness.

Commandment is defined as an injunction, an authoritative prescription: - precept.

Jesus said:

John 15:10
If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

Obviously two different sets of commandments here, one of the Son’s and the other of the Father. If we love Jesus we love the Father. If we love Jesus we will keep his commandments. God’s greatest commandment was love, love for our Father and then our neighbors. Jesus’ greatest commandment was the same; love.

It is this ‘law’ that is being violated in the verses you quoted. Jesus’ command to love as he loved us.

Hi Tawhano,

It is completely un-Biblical to say that God the Father had His commandments and that God the Son had His own commandments. The Father and the Son are one and the very words and commandments of Jesus were the words of God the Father.

John 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

John 10:30 I and my Father are one.

You seem to be a little confused. There is more to the Bible than the New Testament. In fact, you must understand the Old Testament in order to fully understand the New Testament. If you read the Old Testament in addition to the New Testament, you will find that the 10 Commandments were always based on love this is absolutely nothing new.

Jesus does not change and His word doesn't either. I believe that you were referring to the following verses when you spoke of the "greatest commandment" of Christ

Matthew 22:36-40 Master, which is the great commandment in the law? Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

The Bible does not contradict itself, neither do the servants of the Lord throughout the entire Bible.

What are these 2 Commandments referring to? The Bible makes it very clear. Notice how it says that all of the law hangs on these 2 Commandments. It is saying that it is summarizing a law. What law? The 10 Commandments.

Paul said the following:

Romans 13:8, 9 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law. For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

The above quote is a summary of the last 6 of the 10 Commandments. You could have also quoted this:

James 2:8-12 If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself , ye do well: But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors. For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law. So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.

James calls the 10 Commandments "the royal law" (not the "carnal commandment") and "the law of liberty."

Both James and Paul are quoting Jesus.

Here's the verse again.

Matthew 22:36-40 Master, which is the great commandment in the law? Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

In Matthew 22:36-40, Jesus is quoting the Old Testament.

If "Thou shalt love thy neighbor as yourself " summarizes ("briefly comprehended ") the last 6 Commandments (these refer to our love and duty for our neighbors). What Commandments do "Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind " summarize? The first 4 Commandments of the 10 Commandments. The first 4 Commandments refer to our love and duty to Jesus.

Jesus is saying in Matthew 22:35-40 that the 10 Commandments summarizes the entire Bible (law and the prophets, the Bible is a book of laws and prophecies) and that love summarizes the 10 Commandments (and that the 10 Commandments ought to be kept in the spirit of love).

Do we have a duty to keep the first 4 Commandments (including 4th--Sabbath day)? Yes, the Bible makes it plain. Because of this I will not:
1) Have any other gods but Jesus
2) Make images that I bow down to and worship
3) Take the name of Jesus in vain
4) Break the Sabbath

Jesus was speaking in Matthew just as He was speaking in Exodus.

Jesus never changes.

Psalms 89:34 My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips.

Jesus has always wanted men to keep the 10 Commandments in the Spirit.

Deuteronomy 11:13 And it shall come to pass, if ye shall hearken diligently unto my commandments which I command you this day, to love the LORD your God, and to serve him with all your heart and with all your soul ,

Deuteronomy 30:6 And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul , that thou mayest live.

Leviticus 19:13-20 Thou shalt not defraud thy neighbour, neither rob him:...Thou shalt not go up and down as a talebearer among thy people: neither shalt thou stand against the blood of thy neighbour: I am the LORD. Thou shalt not hate thy brother in thine heart ...Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself : I am the LORD. ...And whosoever lieth carnally with a woman, that is a bondmaid, betrothed to an husband , and not at all redeemed, nor freedom given her; she shall be scourged; they shall not be put to death, because she was not free.

As you can see, the Bible has always been saying the same thing. Moses said the same thing, Paul said the same thing, James said the same thing, Jesus said the same thing we can go on for a long time.

Jesus said:

Matthew 5:17, 18 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Okay here's the 2 Commandment verse one more time.

Matthew 22:36-40 Master, which is the great commandment in the law? Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

The 10 Commandments are still in effect today. In the days of ancient Israel, Jesus wanted His people to keep the 10 Commandments in the Spirit. Nothing has changed today.

Your brother in Christ,
TheTruthSeeker

 

[Colossians]

Datsar,

in my eyes you have yet to answer any of my question, or for that matter address any logic I have presented,
You can't be serious.

God lives in you, fine, but how do you get his knowledge..
You think that God can live inside someone, and that someone not know He was there? If I jumped inside of you, wouldn't you know I was there? How more more then if the God of the universe comes inside someone?

Do you think God is a doer of all the laws he gave to Moses?
You can't do law if you are not under law. God is under nothing. The law is inapplicable to God. And I have told you previously that the law does not apply to the spirit realm. It is designed for the flesh.

Do you think a Christian who learns and lives by the laws is condemned?
His activities in this regard fall into the category of 1 Cor 3:11-16: his works will be burned up, yet he himself will be saved, yet "as through fire".

Do you think all it takes to get faith is baptism?
Not relevant to this thread.

Do you believe in all the principles behind the laws?
A Christian does not hold to principles, but to Christ. He is not to eat of the Tree of the knowledge of good and evil (where 'principles' are found), but of the Tree of Life, who is Christ Jesus.

Jesus said you shall know them by their fruits, what are the fruits he was referring?
Primarily: Christ Jesus. Secondarily, those which flow from love.

Do you think one can loss their faith, if so how?
Not relavant to this thread.

Then the good acts are defined as how?
It matters not how they are defined. You keep your eyes on the Master. If He is not enough for you now, then He will not be enough for you in eternity, and you are in a most wretched state.

If you are listening to Christ, then why are you listening to law?
Simple it was Christ (one mind with the father) who gave us the laws!
And it was Christ who fulfilled them. Their 'use-by ' date has long ago passed.

 

[thetruthseeker]

Datsar,

in my eyes you have yet to answer any of my question, or for that matter address any logic I have presented,
You can't be serious.

God lives in you, fine, but how do you get his knowledge..
You think that God can live inside someone, and that someone not know He was there? If I jumped inside of you, wouldn't you know I was there? How more more then if the God of the universe comes inside someone?

Do you think God is a doer of all the laws he gave to Moses?
You can't do law if you are not under law. God is under nothing. The law is inapplicable to God. And I have told you previously that the law does not apply to the spirit realm. It is designed for the flesh.

Do you think a Christian who learns and lives by the laws is condemned?
His activities in this regard fall into the category of 1 Cor 3:11-16: his works will be burned up, yet he himself will be saved, yet "as through fire".

Do you think all it takes to get faith is baptism?
Not relevant to this thread.

Do you believe in all the principles behind the laws?
A Christian does not hold to principles, but to Christ. He is not to eat of the Tree of the knowledge of good and evil (where 'principles' are found), but of the Tree of Life, who is Christ Jesus.

Jesus said you shall know them by their fruits, what are the fruits he was referring?
Primarily: Christ Jesus. Secondarily, those which flow from love.

Do you think one can loss their faith, if so how?
Not relavant to this thread.

Then the good acts are defined as how?
It matters not how they are defined. You keep your eyes on the Master. If He is not enough for you now, then He will not be enough for you in eternity, and you are in a most wretched state.

If you are listening to Christ, then why are you listening to law?
Simple it was Christ (one mind with the father) who gave us the laws!
And it was Christ who fulfilled them. Their 'use-by ' date has long ago passed.

Hi Colossians,

You are dealing with all the issues on the sideline. I have dealt with the 10 Commandments issue directly, heads on. My point was and is that God's word has not changed and cannot change. This is the absolute truth as shown in the Bible.

It is completely un-Biblical to say that God the Father had His commandments and that God the Son had His own commandments. The Father and the Son are one and the very words and commandments of Jesus were the words of God the Father.

John 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

John 10:30 I and my Father are one.

You seem to be a little confused. There is more to the Bible than the New Testament. In fact, you must understand the Old Testament in order to fully understand the New Testament. If you read the Old Testament in addition to the New Testament, you will find that the 10 Commandments were always based on love this is absolutely nothing new.

Jesus does not change and His word doesn't either. I believe that you were referring to the following verses when you spoke of the "greatest commandment" of Christ

Matthew 22:36-40 Master, which is the great commandment in the law? Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

The Bible does not contradict itself, neither do the servants of the Lord throughout the entire Bible.

What are these 2 Commandments referring to? The Bible makes it very clear. Notice how it says that all of the law hangs on these 2 Commandments. It is saying that it is summarizing a law. What law? The 10 Commandments.

Paul said the following:

Romans 13:8, 9 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law. For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

The above quote is a summary of the last 6 of the 10 Commandments. You could have also quoted this:

James 2:8-12 If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself , ye do well: But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors. For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law. So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.

James calls the 10 Commandments "the royal law" (not the "carnal commandment") and "the law of liberty."

Both James and Paul are quoting Jesus.

Here's the verse again.

Matthew 22:36-40 Master, which is the great commandment in the law? Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

In Matthew 22:36-40, Jesus is quoting the Old Testament.

If "Thou shalt love thy neighbor as yourself " summarizes ("briefly comprehended ") the last 6 Commandments (these refer to our love and duty for our neighbors). What Commandments do "Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind " summarize? The first 4 Commandments of the 10 Commandments. The first 4 Commandments refer to our love and duty to Jesus.

Jesus is saying in Matthew 22:35-40 that the 10 Commandments summarizes the entire Bible (law and the prophets, the Bible is a book of laws and prophecies) and that love summarizes the 10 Commandments (and that the 10 Commandments ought to be kept in the spirit of love).

Do we have a duty to keep the first 4 Commandments (including 4th--Sabbath day)? Yes, the Bible makes it plain. Because of this I will not:
1) Have any other gods but Jesus
2) Make images that I bow down to and worship
3) Take the name of Jesus in vain
4) Break the Sabbath

Jesus was speaking in Matthew just as He was speaking in Exodus.

Jesus never changes.

Psalms 89:34 My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips.

Jesus has always wanted men to keep the 10 Commandments in the Spirit.

Deuteronomy 11:13 And it shall come to pass, if ye shall hearken diligently unto my commandments which I command you this day, to love the LORD your God, and to serve him with all your heart and with all your soul ,

Deuteronomy 30:6 And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul , that thou mayest live.

Leviticus 19:13-20 Thou shalt not defraud thy neighbour, neither rob him:...Thou shalt not go up and down as a talebearer among thy people: neither shalt thou stand against the blood of thy neighbour: I am the LORD. Thou shalt not hate thy brother in thine heart ...Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself : I am the LORD. ...And whosoever lieth carnally with a woman, that is a bondmaid, betrothed to an husband , and not at all redeemed, nor freedom given her; she shall be scourged; they shall not be put to death, because she was not free.

As you can see, the Bible has always been saying the same thing. Moses said the same thing, Paul said the same thing, James said the same thing, Jesus said the same thing we can go on for a long time.

Jesus said:

Matthew 5:17, 18 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Okay here's the 2 Commandment verse one more time.

Matthew 22:36-40 Master, which is the great commandment in the law? Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

The 10 Commandments are still in effect today. In the days of ancient Israel, Jesus wanted His people to keep the 10 Commandments in the Spirit. Nothing has changed today.

Your brother in Christ,
TheTruthSeeker

 

[Colossians]

Truthseeker

The question that I will pose to you is: what is being under the law?
Tawhano has given you a good answer on this.
So now we will pose a question to you: "what is being under the law?"


The following is the original meaning of the word "iniquity.
00458:
458 anomia an-om-ee'-ah from 459; illegality, i.e. violation of law or (genitive case) wickedness:--iniquity, X transgress(-ion of) the law, unrighteousness. see GREEK for 459
A pointer for you. What is iniquitous has to be intuitively iniquitous, not simply iniquitous by virtue of a text-book-styled definition.


Matthew 7:21-23 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
1 John 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
My question to you is simply this: What law is violated or transgressed here?
The greatest commandment.
My question to you: "how much greater than the other commandments is the greatest commandment?"

 

[thetruthseeker]

Truthseeker

The question that I will pose to you is: what is being under the law?
Tawhano has given you a good answer on this.
So now we will pose a question to you: "what is being under the law?"


The following is the original meaning of the word "iniquity.
00458:
458 anomia an-om-ee'-ah from 459; illegality, i.e. violation of law or (genitive case) wickedness:--iniquity, X transgress(-ion of) the law, unrighteousness. see GREEK for 459
A pointer for you. What is iniquitous has to be intuitively iniquitous, not simply iniquitous by virtue of a text-book-styled definition.

My question to you is simply this: What law is violated or transgressed here?
The greastest commandment.
My question to you: "how much greater than the other commandments is the greatest commandment?"

Hi Colossians,

Evidently you have not read what I have written below. The "greatest law" can be found in Deutoronomy 6:5. It is not a new law. It is a summary of the first 4 Commandments of the 10 Commandments. It describes the spirit in which we are to keep the first 4 of the 10 Commandments. Read what I have to say about it below and you will understand that this "new law" stance is absolutely groundless. It is a smoke screen. A distraction to obedience to the decalogue of Jesus Christ.

It is completely un-Biblical to say that God the Father had His commandments and that God the Son had His own commandments. The Father and the Son are one and the very words and commandments of Jesus were the words of God the Father.

John 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

John 10:30 I and my Father are one.

You seem to be a little confused. There is more to the Bible than the New Testament. In fact, you must understand the Old Testament in order to fully understand the New Testament. If you read the Old Testament in addition to the New Testament, you will find that the 10 Commandments were always based on love this is absolutely nothing new.

Jesus does not change and His word doesn't either. I believe that you were referring to the following verses when you spoke of the "greatest commandment" of Christ

Matthew 22:36-40 Master, which is the great commandment in the law? Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

The Bible does not contradict itself, neither do the servants of the Lord throughout the entire Bible.

What are these 2 Commandments referring to? The Bible makes it very clear. Notice how it says that all of the law hangs on these 2 Commandments. It is saying that it is summarizing a law. What law? The 10 Commandments.

Paul said the following:

Romans 13:8, 9 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law. For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

The above quote is a summary of the last 6 of the 10 Commandments. You could have also quoted this:

James 2:8-12 If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself , ye do well: But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors. For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law. So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.

James calls the 10 Commandments "the royal law" (not the "carnal commandment") and "the law of liberty."

Both James and Paul are quoting Jesus.

Here's the verse again.

Matthew 22:36-40 Master, which is the great commandment in the law? Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

In Matthew 22:36-40, Jesus is quoting the Old Testament.

If "Thou shalt love thy neighbor as yourself " summarizes ("briefly comprehended ") the last 6 Commandments (these refer to our love and duty for our neighbors). What Commandments do "Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind " summarize? The first 4 Commandments of the 10 Commandments. The first 4 Commandments refer to our love and duty to Jesus.

Jesus is saying in Matthew 22:35-40 that the 10 Commandments summarizes the entire Bible (law and the prophets, the Bible is a book of laws and prophecies) and that love summarizes the 10 Commandments (and that the 10 Commandments ought to be kept in the spirit of love).

Do we have a duty to keep the first 4 Commandments (including 4th--Sabbath day)? Yes, the Bible makes it plain. Because of this I will not:
1) Have any other gods but Jesus
2) Make images that I bow down to and worship
3) Take the name of Jesus in vain
4) Break the Sabbath

Jesus was speaking in Matthew just as He was speaking in Exodus.

Jesus never changes.

Psalms 89:34 My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips.

Jesus has always wanted men to keep the 10 Commandments in the Spirit.

Deuteronomy 11:13 And it shall come to pass, if ye shall hearken diligently unto my commandments which I command you this day, to love the LORD your God, and to serve him with all your heart and with all your soul ,

Deuteronomy 30:6 And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul , that thou mayest live.

Leviticus 19:13-20 Thou shalt not defraud thy neighbour, neither rob him:...Thou shalt not go up and down as a talebearer among thy people: neither shalt thou stand against the blood of thy neighbour: I am the LORD. Thou shalt not hate thy brother in thine heart ...Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself : I am the LORD. ...And whosoever lieth carnally with a woman, that is a bondmaid, betrothed to an husband , and not at all redeemed, nor freedom given her; she shall be scourged; they shall not be put to death, because she was not free.

As you can see, the Bible has always been saying the same thing. Moses said the same thing, Paul said the same thing, James said the same thing, Jesus said the same thing we can go on for a long time.

Jesus said:

Matthew 5:17, 18 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Okay here's the 2 Commandment verse one more time.

Matthew 22:36-40 Master, which is the great commandment in the law? Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

The 10 Commandments are still in effect today. In the days of ancient Israel, Jesus wanted His people to keep the 10 Commandments in the Spirit. Nothing has changed today.

Your brother in Christ,
TheTruthSeeker

 

[Colossians]

Truthseeker,

It is completely un-Biblical to say that God the Father had His commandments and that God the Son had His own commandments.
It can't be - it's in the bible.
"If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love" John 15:10

(PS: I expect answers to the 2 questions I have given you.)

 

[Colossians]

truthseeker,

You will answer my questions before we move on.

 

[Colossians]

Sojeru,

the 10 is in the 2.

So when you hang your clothes up in the cupbaord, you hang them inside the rail?
The 10 hang on the 2, they are not in the 2. If the 10 'coathangers' fall off, the 2 are still there.
The 2 do not summarise the 10, they are discrete, additional laws.
You do not understand the issue of law here. Laws are written only when there is need for them (as in secular society) - that is, when no existing law covers the required scope.

The 2 greatest commandments were written because there was a need for them - the existing commandments did not cover the infinite scope that the 2 do. This is the way the law is written/appended to. The law is extremely clinical, and non-personal. It is task-oriented, and is only amended or added to when there is a need.
There was a need.

 

[Vollkommen Warrior]

Pride can be a strong mental and perhaps spiritual block for many of us. The one thing to remember is that when Jesus came to us, EVERYTHING changed.

 

[sojeru]

collosians
you are ceared, my discussion belongs only to tawhano unless he shows the same tht you show.
You hate The Fathers direction(Torah) claiming that you are following the Son's (as you dsay *seperate laws*).
Unless Tawhano shows the same mind- my discussion is alone with him- you are ceared.

 

[Tawhano]

thetruthseeker said:
It is completely un-Biblical to say that God the Father had His commandments and that God the Son had His own commandments.

You got to love that kind of rebuttal; I quote scripture to you and you tell me it is un-Biblical.

John 15:10
If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

Your confusion here seems to be that you think because the word commandment is there it means the Ten Commandments. It means all of God’s precepts and all of Jesus’ precepts. Jesus came to fulfill the law of the old covenant and replace it with a new covenant as the scriptures teach us. Of course the commandments of Jesus come from the Father, as he did nothing of himself, but this verse is showing the separation of the old and the new, the old being that of the Father and the new being that which Jesus herald in.

Hebrews 8:13
In that he saith, A new [covenant], he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old [is] ready to vanish away.

Jesus fulfilled the first and herald in the new. Jesus is our High Priest after the order of Melchisedec.

Hebrews 7:11-12
If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need [was there] that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron? For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.

And yet you believe nothing has changed?

Galatians 3:23-25
But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster [to bring us] unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

Nothing has changed? By fulfilling the law Jesus set us free from the law and we were no longer under the schoolmaster. Prior to the sacrifice Jesus made for us all were lost to sin. None were justified by the law.

Romans 2:13
For not the hearers of the law [are] just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

Wait a minute; isn’t this saying they were justified by the law?

Romans 3:9-10
What then? are we better [than they]? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin; As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

Romans 3:20
Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law [is] the knowledge of sin.

No, not one person was justified by the law. All were unable to keep the laws. So under the law none were righteous. Something had to change or heaven would be an empty place.

Romans 7:6
But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not [in] the oldness of the letter.

Colossians 2:13-14
And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

Nothing had changed? If nothing had changed then we would be dead in our sins still.

 

[Tawhano]

Sojeru said:

collosians
you are ceared, my discussion belongs only to tawhano unless he shows the same tht you show.
You hate The Fathers direction(Torah) claiming that you are following the Son's (as you dsay *seperate laws*).
Unless Tawhano shows the same mind- my discussion is alone with him- you are ceared.

I believe Collosians is saying the same as I in this issue. Jesus herald in the new covenant and we say ‘his commandments’ to show the difference from the old covenant and the new. They are not his in the sense that he supercedes God and made up his own. Jesus received everything from the Father; it is His new covenant that Jesus brought to the world.

John 6:38
For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me…

Luke 10:22
All things are delivered to me of my Father…

This is how I perceive it. I cannot speak for Collosians except to say from what he has posted I believe we believe similarly.

BTW, what does 'ceared' mean?

 

[Achichem]

Colossians,

God lives in you, fine, but how do you get his knowledge..

You think that God can live inside someone, and that someone not know He was there? If I jumped inside of you, wouldn't you know I was there? How much more then if the God of the universe comes inside someone?

Allow me to clarify the question, how do you communicate with the spirit inside of you?
I am trying to figure out how you understand the spirit, because that is the first step to understanding this topic. Are you just saying he just controls you end of story, or does he tell you things, or does he give you instant wisdom, or does he give you message when you sleep, ect.

Sorry for being unclear.

Do you think God is a doer of all the laws he gave to Moses?
You can't do law if you are not under law. God is under nothing. The law is inapplicable to God. And I have told you previously that the law does not apply to the spirit realm. It is designed for the flesh.

But when I say a statement I am not saying God is under the laws, the same way I have said a quite a few times before, I am not saying we are under the law.

What am asking does God do everything that is contained within the laws?

Do you think a Christian who learns and lives by the laws is condemned?
His activities in this regard fall into the category of 1 Cor 3:11-16: his works will be burned up, yet he himself will be saved, yet "as through fire".

I other words, you do not disagree with me! If you think I will be saved despite my acts, and I say the same about you, then why are we arguing?

Also then why did you say I was committing spirit adultery, which would signify that I as a law follower I would not be saved?

Do you think all it takes to get faith is baptism?

Do you think one can loss their faith, if so how?

I am trying to get an understanding of how you believe the spirit works, since you disregard acts as having anything to do with it abiding in you.

Do you believe in all the principles behind the laws?
A Christian does not hold to principles, but to Christ. He is not to eat of the Tree of the knowledge of good and evil (where 'principles' are found), but of the Tree of Life, who is Christ Jesus.

LOL,
DO you know what you are saying by Christians have no principles?

Gal 5:19-26

Then the good acts are defined as how?

It matters not how they are defined. You keep your eyes on the Master. If He is not enough for you now, then He will not be enough for you in eternity, and you are in a most wretched state.

You must look in yourself and see, are you in the spirit or in the flesh? You miss this step can you even see the master anymore?

If you are listening to Christ, then why are you listening to law?
Simple it was Christ (one mind with the father) who gave us the laws!
And it was Christ who fulfilled them. Their 'use-by ' date has long ago passed.

sure, they are not laws, they are now just the plain out words of God.

 

[Achichem]

My Address to Galatians because clearly there is some misunderstanding on someone part, and in my eyes some assumptions being made without a proper look at context, or whole picture.

The first step to understanding a letter, as an outsider looking in is to identify two main things before you construe anything. These being identifying audience and where the writer is coming from.

Since I think we have all read about the works and attitudes of Paul I think we understand who he is. Do not get me wrong that does not mean we can understand any of his letters yet, but him as a person we can.

The audience is well explain in Galatians, so to identify and thus begin to get a felling for the context, we will look at what Paul says about what is going wrong with the Galatians.

Galatians 3 1-9, NKJV:

O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you that you should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed among you as crucified? This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh? Have you suffered so many things in vain--if indeed it was in vain?
Therefore He who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you, does He do it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?-- just as Abraham "believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." Therefore know that only those who are of faith are sons of Abraham. And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, "In you all the nations shall be blessed." So then those who are of faith are blessed with believing Abraham.

So what do we take away from this about the Galatians or for that matter what is the purpose of the next part of the letter, in Paul s over all word? we get:

• The Galatians were putting emphasis on law, and not faith

The line “Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?” is his main question to the Galatians in this section, as well as sets the tone for the next statements or points, if it was simply adherence to the law Paul was referring then why would he ask them about in comparative form, would not a more proper form then be,
“Why do you do the law, if you have faith?”, but this was not the case at all, clearly the Galatians were adopting an ideology that the law was required for salvation, or to be just. Orin other words he who was not in the law was condemned.

Another important key if you are looking at statements like

• The law is not faith

Would be Paul writing style.

I will demonstrate Paul s unique style and prove the importance of the context taken from the knowledge about the audience and purpose of the letter.

Galatians 5:2, NKJV:

Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing.

Taking this statement out of Paul s mouth without taking this in to context of the letter one would get the idea that someone who circumcise their child that child would not or could not receive Christ. But of course we know that not to be true, even Paul know that.

See how Paul sets the record strait, and demonstrates the need for context.

Galatians 5:6, NKJV:

For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but faith working through love.

See the same concept applies of the famous liens used by the abdicators of spiritual adultery in the law.

Let us look at those lines:

Lead up:

Galatians 3:10-11,NKJV:

For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them." But that no one is justified by the law in the sight of God is evident, for "the just shall live by faith."

line:

Galatians 3:12,NKJV:

Yet the law is not of faith, but "the man who does them shall live by them."

follow up:

Galatians 3:13-14,NKJV:

Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree"), that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

Notice the sentence “works of the law” in the lead up, this indicates that people he is referring to those who do not lead themselves by faith.
Also notice he is speaking about those justified by the law, even in all the rest of the lead up. This taken in coincidence with the context given to us by the knowledge about the audience of the letter, and it is clear that he is still referring his comments to those who o teach the law is required for salvation. Then he summarizes his statement in the last line, trying to stress the point, as is his style of writing.

Also note the second comment, about keeping all of them, this is in reference to the idea of you go against one you go against all. This is an idea Paul has always put forth.

Then if you look closely at the follow up, where does he put his emphasis, is it on this idea of “faith is not law” or its it explaining how all obtained faith and how were made equal, regardless of blood line of obedience to the law.

Clearly in light of the entire context this statement means that those who put the law as a requirement do not truly follow faith but the law.

Note, we are saying that through faith, we follow the law, not that those who do not are any less justified. This would only go against Gal 3:12 if you ignore the context of the statement, Paul s style of writing and the audience of the letter.

Taking things at face value and then judging other on it, is not a wise practice…

More soon, but I am really busy….
That includes all the questions I have yet to answer!

 

[thetruthseeker]

Truthseeker,

It is completely un-Biblical to say that God the Father had His commandments and that God the Son had His own commandments.
It can't be - it's in the bible.
"If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love" John 15:10

(PS: I expect answers to the 2 questions I have given you.)

Hi Colossians,

To quote a verse out of context is to do more damage then good to the cause of Jesus Christ. To say that God the Father had His own set of Commandments for the Old Testament and that Jesus had His own set of Commandments for the New Testament is completely un-Biblical. As I have shown in Deutonomy 6:5 and Leviticus 19:18, the Father's and Son's Commandments are identical and eternal (Old Testament ---> New Testament ---> Eternity).

The way that you can protect yourself against situations like this is to line up various verses on the topic and then come to a conclusion. To take a verse in isolation and make it a doctrine is very dangerous. You see, the Bible does not contradict itself. If you compare verses with verses, your conclusions would be more sound. The harmony of the other verses will prove that you are right and dis-harmony with other verses will prove that you are wrong. This is how you can find the true context of verses. I say this frankly but out of love.

There seems to be a lot of confusion as to what the Law of Moses (handwriting of the ordinances) consist of. I will post on this topic shortly.

Your brother in Christ,
TheTruthSeeker

 

[thetruthseeker]

You got to love that kind of rebuttal; I quote scripture to you and you tell me it is un-Biblical.

John 15:10
If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

Your confusion here seems to be that you think because the word commandment is there it means the Ten Commandments. It means all of God’s precepts and all of Jesus’ precepts. Jesus came to fulfill the law of the old covenant and replace it with a new covenant as the scriptures teach us. Of course the commandments of Jesus come from the Father, as he did nothing of himself, but this verse is showing the separation of the old and the new, the old being that of the Father and the new being that which Jesus herald in.

Hebrews 8:13
In that he saith, A new [covenant], he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old [is] ready to vanish away.

Jesus fulfilled the first and herald in the new. Jesus is our High Priest after the order of Melchisedec.

Hebrews 7:11-12
If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need [was there] that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron? For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.

And yet you believe nothing has changed?

Galatians 3:23-25
But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster [to bring us] unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

Nothing has changed? By fulfilling the law Jesus set us free from the law and we were no longer under the schoolmaster. Prior to the sacrifice Jesus made for us all were lost to sin. None were justified by the law.

Romans 2:13
For not the hearers of the law [are] just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

Wait a minute; isn’t this saying they were justified by the law?

Romans 3:9-10
What then? are we better [than they]? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin; As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

Romans 3:20
Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law [is] the knowledge of sin.

No, not one person was justified by the law. All were unable to keep the laws. So under the law none were righteous. Something had to change or heaven would be an empty place.

Romans 7:6
But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not [in] the oldness of the letter.

Colossians 2:13-14
And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

Nothing had changed? If nothing had changed then we would be dead in our sins still.

Hi Tawhano,

Per you posts, it appears as if you are confused as to what was "nailed to the cross." Hint: it was the Law of Moses. What were the Law of Moses? Stay tuned and you will find out.

NOTE: THIS IS A REPOST OF ONE OF MY OLD POSTS

There is a sharp distinction between the Law of God (10 Commandments) and the Law of Moses (ordinances--civil laws "statutes and judgments" and ceremonial laws). The Law of God is eternal and the Law of Moses was made void at the cross.

Jesus said the following to Israel:

2 Kings 21:8 Neither will I make the feet of Israel move any more out of the land which I gave their fathers; only if they will observe to do according to all that I have commanded them, and according to all the law that my servant Moses commanded them.

Moses said the following:

Deuteronomy 4:13, 14 And he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, even ten commandments; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone. And the LORD commanded me at that time to teach you statutes and judgments, that ye might do them in the land whither ye go over to possess it.

The Law of God (10 Commandment) and the Law of Moses (civil and ceremonial laws) were never equal.

As you know, Jesus wrote the 10 Commandments.

Exodus 31:18 And he gave unto Moses, when he had made an end of communing with him upon mount Sinai, two tables of testimony, tables of stone, written with the finger of God.

As you know, Moses wrote "the Law of Moses."

Deuteronomy 31:9 And Moses wrote this law, and delivered it unto the priests the sons of Levi, which bare the ark of the covenant of the LORD, and unto all the elders of Israel.

Moses put the 10 Commandments into the ark of the testimony but put his book of laws beside the ark of the testimony.

Exodus 25:16 And thou shalt put into the ark the testimony which I shall give thee.

Deuteronomy 31:24-26 And it came to pass, when Moses had made an end of writing the words of this law in a book, until they were finished, That Moses commanded the Levites, which bare the ark of the covenant of the LORD, saying, Take this book of the law, and put it in the side of the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it may be there for a witness against thee.

Notice how the Law of Moses is said to be "against" (contrary-Colossians 2:14) the people in Deuteronomy. Why? Because it was understood that the people of Israel had not obeyed and would not obey and therefore face the judgements or curses that were written in the Book of Moses (Law of Moses).

Ezekiel 20:24, 25 Because they had not executed my judgments, but had despised my statutes, and had polluted my sabbaths, and their eyes were after their fathers' idols. Wherefore I gave them also statutes that were not good, and judgments whereby they should not live;

The Law of Moses are called "carnal commandments." This means that they are not eternal. They were short-lived.

Hebrews 7:12-16 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law. For he of whom these things are spoken pertaineth to another tribe, of which no man gave attendance at the altar. For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood. And it is yet far more evident: for that after the similitude of Melchisedec there ariseth another priest, Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life.

This is why Paul said that Jesus abolished the "commandments contained in the ordinances."

Ephesians 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

Remember, all ceremonial laws pointed to the ultimate sacrifice of Jesus Christ (the Lamb). They were to be abolished by the death of Jesus.

Hebrews 9:9, 10 Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience; _Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.

Daniel 9:24-27 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

In Bible prophecy, one prophetic day is equal to one year (Numbers 14:23; Eziekel 4:6).

According to Daniel 9:24-27, ancient Israel had 490 years (70 weeks) to get it "right" with the Lord "make an end of sin" or repent.

The "commandment to restore and rebuild Jerusalem" was proclaimed in 457 B.C. (Ezra 7:1-27) by Artaxerxes.

Jesus started His mission 483 years (69 weeks) after the command to rebuild Jerusalem, at His baptism.

He confirmed the covenant for 1 week (7 years) and caused the "sacrifice and oblation to cease" in the middle of the week (3 1/2 years--the duration of Jesus' ministry before He was crucified). God gave ancient Israel 3 1/2 years after His death to repent--to get it right. However, this grace ended after Steven was stoned 3 1/2 years later and the gospel went to the Gentiles.

The death of Jesus brought an end to meat offerings, sacrifices etc... They all had a part in the yearly sabbaths, feasts. Jesus caused the "sacrifice and oblation" to cease.

This was confirmed by the ripping of the veil in the temple.

Mark 15:37, 37 And Jesus cried with a loud voice, and gave up the ghost. And the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom.

Colossians 2 is referring to yearly sabbaths being nailed to the cross not the weekly Sabbath day. Leviticus 23 names 7 yearly sabbaths.

Leviticus says that the yearly sabbaths were to be kept along wth the "Sabbaths of the Lord" (weekly Sabbath--Saturday).

Leviticus 23:37-38 These are the feasts of the LORD, which ye shall proclaim to be holy convocations, to offer an offering made by fire unto the LORD, a burnt offering, and a meat offering, a sacrifice, and drink offerings, every thing upon his day: Beside the sabbaths of the LORD, and beside your gifts, and beside all your vows, and beside all your freewill offerings, which ye give unto the LORD.

Concerning the shadows, the Ultimate Sacrifice (the center of each type) was given for each one. This means that they are no longer binding. However, they are still being fulfilled. That is another topic all together. Do you think we should start a new thread for that?

These shadows were given because of sin. However, the weekly Sabbath (Saturday) existed before there was any sin. Therefore, it is not classified as a "carnal commandment or ordinance."

Now back to the original thought.

The following is the original meaning of the word "iniquity."

00458:
458 anomia an-om-ee'-ah from 459; illegality, i.e. violation of law or (genitive case) wickedness:--iniquity, X transgress(-ion of) the law, unrighteousness. see GREEK for 459

Remember, Jesus said:

Matthew 7:21-23 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

1 John 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

My question again is simply this: What law is violated or transgressed here?

Your brother in Christ,
TheTruthSeeker