Not under the law

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Vollkommen Warrior

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"How do you expect me to respond to this?" He who gets angry has most clearly lost the battle. It is just debate. Nothing to get angry about. Following the law has become your God when following God should be your law. I see it as idol worship in a way. You worship the old teachings first; whether to please friends, family or just nostalgia and God second. Those old teaching are wise and wonderful, God bless them. But please see that when Jesus came EVERYTHING changed. Again, God made the law for man, not man for the law. If God says, here is the new covenant, you don't say, no, I will stick to the old one for my own reasons."
 
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Colossians

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Datsar,

I praise you friend and brother for assuming you have Jesus living inside of you (which I would not be surprised in one bit) ..you assume we do not know this same Christ, when you yourself do nothing as he did or will ever do.
So you're not surprised that I have the Lord living in me, but you say I do nothing that he did. Upon what basis then is your belief that Christ is in me?


To them it is clear: follow the commandments and you will evidence to both yourself and others that you know God. It is a derived relationship, not an actual relationship.
LOL,
You laugh, but your above statement that I "do nothing as he did or ever will do" is proof of what I have said: your relationship is derived based upon what you do, your works.


..there should not be a grace camp and another for those who follow the law out of grace
"follow the law out of grace": an oxymoron. Like a man who has by a court of law been graciously sentenced to "time already served", being so thankful he decides to serve the time anyway.


You ..refuse to talk about James, Peter or Jude, how all clearly demonstrate the same attitude toward the law as me and many others here.
That you think that James, Peter and Jude differ from Paul, is evidence that you do not understand the multi-faceted communication of the Spirit. That you wish to move on to them, is proof that you feel Paul disagrees with you.


Following the law is a way of life!
It is a way of death:
"And the commandment, which was ordained unto life, I found to be unto death" Rom 7:10
On the other hand, Jesus said "I am the way, the Truth and the Life".


No body said it was required
Oh good. Then I won't follow it, and neither you nor God will mind.
 
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sojeru

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Hi Sp0ck,
truth is- I hold onto TORAH because the New testament shows so.
If your heart is to understand how- then I will show you- but many people here are already pre-conceieved in their thoughts to Bible.
I KNOW that non of the people defending that side (the no-Torah side) never looked at Torah as guidance- ever.
However, I ONCE DID look at the bible through their eyes.
Me being reared secular, then saw christianity. I walked in christianity for years and fought against ALL Torah practicioners. To me, they gave no adequate answer- thats why I can understand collosians and Tawhano- Yet they still fail in their interpretation.
I DO CARRY the correct interpretation to all they have brought up- But my heart has already given them up. So i dont talk with them about it anymore.
I just let them think they've won.

JUST REMEMBER JAMES in the book of acts, Remember what He told Paul in chapter 21 and remember what He had paul do to show he is still a practitioner of the "LAWS OF MOSES" as "the truth seeker" so adimately speaks against.
Remember the words of Messiah jesus in MAt 5.17-20 and even after
if you know and understand Judaism you will see ALL and EVERYTHING and THE WAY MESSIAH SPOKE is RELIGIOUSLY JEWISH- LAW OF MOSES STYLE.
He is the LIVING TORAH
He did not BREAK ANY of G-D's commandments and LIVED BY EVERY WORD that proceeded out of the mouth of YHWH.
And He TELLS US to do the same and Gives us the SPIRIT to accomplish this.
Im not saying I have FULL KNOWLEDGE- But I am saying is that Messiah is the word, the TORAH, from Genesis to deutoronomy through to Revelation.
Anyone that denies this is obviously a liar.
And these are theones that saythat Jesus is only MAtthew to Revelation, disregarding the rest of the word.
LIVE BY ALL HASHEM G-D reveals, this is the key to understanding= and if you contain this concept- You will uinderstand.

shalom u'bracha
 
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Achichem

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Sp0ck,
I never said I got angry, I ask the intention of his post, it seem like an attack rather then a rebuttal or argument of any sort.

Colossians said:
So you're not surprised that I have the Lord living in me, but you say I do nothing that he did. Upon what basis then is your belief that Christ is in me?
You also have the flesh inside you, which one you feed is up to you! From what I get from just these posts I take it you feed both.


You laugh, but your above statement that I "do nothing as he did or ever will do" is proof of what I have said: your relationship is derived based upon what you do, your works.
Harsh words to put forth a point, It is called writing style. Is my relationship based upon my works? No, that is off faith. My acts are based on the guidelines set by God, so the spirit may be my master.

"follow the law out of grace": an oxymoron. Like a man who has by a court of law been graciously sentenced to "time already served", being so thankful he decides to serve the time anyway.
Not at all an oxymoron, James, peter and even Paul did all the same I did.
That you think that James, Peter and Jude differ from Paul, is evidence that you do not understand the multi-faceted communication of the Spirit. That you wish to move on to them, is proof that you feel Paul disagrees with you.
No, I do not think they are different at allin their beliefs, but you see Peter and James made it clear of what I am saying, and even warned us about people like you calling us condemned, well they themselves are on the edge.

It is a way of death:
"And the commandment, which was ordained unto life, I found to be unto death" Rom 7:10
On the other hand, Jesus said "I am the way, the Truth and the Life".
I agree if grace/faith was not involved, which it is.
Jesus is the way the truth and the life, no one is saying differently.

The law is not death, sin is death, and the debt has been paid.

O and faith can certainly work when you are following the law, “is the law against the promises of God? certainly not” Gal. 3:21


Oh good. Then I won't follow it, and neither you nor God will mind.
Which as I always agreed with, but do not in your not following of the law forget to keep your acts following the spirit in the precepts of the law, or the flesh will win out.
The precepts or the what not to do: Gal. 5:19-21
The precepts of the what to do: Gal 5:22-23
 
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Tawhano

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thetruthseeker said:
You still appear to be a little confused. First there was the confusion about the "great law" then the "Law of Moses" and now there is confusion about what the Old and New Covenants consist of. I will try to clear it up for you as concisely as possible but first I have a few questions to ask you.

The confusion is solely on your part, because you have to disregard so much of the scriptures to justify your viewpoint that confusion sets in. This is evident in your attempt to ‘clear it up’ for me. Because you believe that we are to do something in exchange for the free gift of grace Jesus gave us you can’t seem to get past the notion that we are still under the old covenant even though you call it the new covenant. If it looks, feels and tastes like the old covenant then rest assure it is the old covenant. You keep saying we are not under the law but want to follow the law. If you follow the law you are under the law. The other confusion that keeps you from the truth is your illusion that commandments and laws are the same thing. They are not, as I demonstrated in another post.

thetruthseeker said:
Romans 13:8, 9 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law. For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

The above quote is a summary of the last 6 of the 10 Commandments...

It most certainly is not. Romans, funnily enough, deals with the same issue that you are having problems with. Those of the old covenant found it hard to come to terms with not being under the law but under grace. Paul is explaining to them the similarities with the new commandment of love to the Ten Commandments. They, like you, believed that this freedom from the old covenant would mean that people could freely sin without repercussions. Paul explains why this isn’t so. Most of Romans deals with this topic.

thetruthseeker said:
James 2:8-12 If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself , ye do well: But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors. For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law. So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.

James calls the 10 Commandments "the royal law" (not the "carnal commandment") and "the law of liberty."

Which means absolutely nothing to this debate. We already know from the teachings of the scripture that no one was able to keep the law and therefore no one was justified by the law. James explains this in the verse above. He says that those who keep the law are under the law and therefore justified by the law but that even if you are able to observe the Ten Commandments and break the spirit of the law you are guilty of breaking the whole law. This explains why nobody was able to keep the law.

Romans 3:20
Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law [is] the knowledge of sin.


thetruthseeker said:
What commandments make up the new covenant?

No commandments, the new covenant isn’t about laws and commandments it’s about faith.
 
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Tawhano

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sojeru said:
To me, they gave no adequate answer- thats why I can understand collosians and Tawhano- Yet they still fail in their interpretation.
I DO CARRY the correct interpretation to all they have brought up- But my heart has already given them up. So i dont talk with them about it anymore.
I just let them think they've won.
In all the debates I have entered into on the Internet I have long since come to the conclusion that no one wins. I do not think I have won because you decided to ignore me. I learn by debating. On these debates I hear things that I haven’t heard before or considered before. This makes me Study the Word more and from that I grow.

The sad thing about you is that you are so sure you have all the answers but you are unable to communicate them. You rarely back up what you are saying with scriptures. You may have valid reasons to do so but to me it is suspicious and detracts from the points you are trying to make. You are unable to explain why the scriptures talk about the new covenant replacing the old. You are unable to explain why you think we are to follow the laws that we are no longer under.

I have the funny feeling that we may actually believe the same things but just have different definitions for things. This we will never know because of the hardness of your heart.

sojeru said:
But I am saying is that Messiah is the word, the TORAH, from Genesis to deutoronomy through to Revelation.

This I believe.

sojeru said:
And these are theones that saythat Jesus is only MAtthew to Revelation, disregarding the rest of the word.

You, Like the others here, have ignored Post# 92.
 
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Colossians

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Datsar,

do not in your not following of the law forget to keep your acts following the spirit in the precepts of the law
In other words, do not in your not following the law forget to follow the law.

Your 'spirit' is simply personified law. And this is why you refer to Him with a small "s" and the pronoun "it". He is not a person; merely a personification of your law following. If He were a person, you would realise you cannot follow both Him and the law.
But go and read this: "we serve (God) in newness of the Spirit, and not in oldness of the letter". The letter (law) and the Spirit are mutually exclusive. Neither contains the other.
 
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Achichem

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Colossians,

Colossians said:
In other words, do not in your not following the law forget to follow the law.
Wrong, that is not what I said at all, I said to be careful and not do the things, which are not for the spirit.
How do I define the precepts of the law?
Things to steer clear of
Galatians 5:19-21, NKJV:
Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
Things, which you must keep!
Galatians 5:22-30, NKJV:
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law. And those who are Christ's have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. Let us not become conceited, provoking one another, envying one another.

Why did I call them precepts of the law, because that is what the law teaches!



Colossians said:
Your 'spirit' is simply personified law. And this is why you refer to Him with a small "s" and the pronoun "it". He is not a person; merely a personification of your law following. If He were a person, you would realise you cannot follow both Him and the law.
First I do not see him that way at all, second I use the small "s" because I still believe the spirit to be the living power of God, and not an entity of its own merit, however seeing it that way in no way affects my option on the subject, nor changes any of my arguments.

But go and read this: "we serve (God) in newness of the Spirit, and not in oldness of the letter". The letter (law) and the Spirit are mutually exclusive. Neither contains the
I am not a seven day Adventist claming all who do not follow by word will be burned up in hell fire, actually I have said something quite different, something which is the very same thing shown and demonstrated in many if not all of the disciples. Which is the following of the law by faith, Not so that law could justify us, but so we can live better in the spirit. That does not discredit your way, of living without the law at all, however I worry for I have seen too many brethren, who in not following the law, loss sight of the spirit and retreat to the flesh, I wish no man to parish and all to find and live in the Spirit.But you can not have the spirit and works of the flesh, that was made very clear!That is mutually exclusive, not those things which teach the same thing.

O ya, that is right you cannot se how the law teaches the same thing as faith! so i ask you: What laws do you think will be in Christ Kingdom?

God bless,
DaTsar
Ps. Please do not respond to me line to line, please just paragraph-to-paragraph, thank you.
 
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Colossians

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Datsar,

In other words, do not in your not following the law forget to follow the law.
Wrong, that is not what I said at all, I said to be careful and not do the things, which are not for the spirit.
No you didn't. You said: "do not in your not following of the law forget to keep your acts following the spirit in the precepts of the law"


why did I call them precepts of the law, because that is what the law teaches!
There you go again. Just can't help yourself can you? You try and cover it up in words like "spirit" and "fruits" and "precepts", but you eventually reveal your true colours: law following.

Your 'spirit' is simply personified law. And this is why you refer to Him with a small "s" and the pronoun "it". He is not a person; merely a personification of your law following.
First I do not see him that way at all, second I use the small "s" because I still believe the spirit to be the living power of God, and not an entity of its own merit, however seeing it that way in no way affects my option on the subject, nor changes any of my arguments.
This is your fundamental problem. You can't follow Him because you do not know He exists. This is strong evidence that you do not know the Lord personally. All spirits are persons.


actually I have .. shown and demonstrated in many if not all of the disciples..following of the law by faith,
Your interpretations are necessarily wrong, for "(keeping) the law is not of faith" Gal 3:12.
Perhaps the amplified bible will help you here:
"But the law does not rest on faith - does not require faith, has nothing to do with faith - for it says, He who does them (the things prescribed by the Law) shall live by them, [not by faith]."


What laws do you think will be in Christ Kingdom?
"The kingdom of God is within you". It is not a future event.
 
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sojeru

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hi tawhano,
I just dont wish to debate WRITE (i dont mean right) now.
so much going on- but you do seem sincere in your wanting to learn and know HaShem.
I will give you that.
And you are humble, even if we are not ONE yet.
May HaShem bless you.
No doubt HaShem has made you lower than "collosians". And by Him doing this- He has made you Greater than him. He needs to learn something from you.

shalom u'bracha
 
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sojeru

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TO ALL
this is PLAIN AND SIMPLE
If one wishes to FIGHT THIS then NO DOUBT THAT PERSON IS CEARED.

TO THOSE THAT BELIEVE, WE DIE, THE BELIEVERS ARE DEAD.
YET WE LIVE, BUT NOT US, IT IS MESSIAH, NOT US, THAT LIVES.

EVERY living human being sins, How about the dead one- lying down in his grave- can he sin knowingly?
NO
and this is our same state.
By The crucifixion of Messiah - and since he "DREW ALL MEN TO HIM (his death in his death)" ALL MEN ARE DEAD, even a child being born theis very minute and second is dead though they are a breathing creature.

if you are ALIVE in and by Messiah YOU CANNOT SIN
(knowingly). AND WILL BE PERFECTED (literally without sin BEFORE you die IF a true believer.) and many blessings come with just being ALIVE in Messiah.

***now you can debate the below if you care too***
However, THE TORAH, when put into the hearts of a human, gives that human life.
Who is this Torah- This Torah is The Spirit, This Torah is Messiah.
And the Torah is NO DOUBT those that were written on stone.
NOW.
here is the word play.
In Hebrew stones are usually a metaphore for gentiles- This is always used.
So, even though these were the people of Yisrael, they were gentiles- foreigners- with different practices. TOrah was not written in the hearts.
For whatever a man loves this is what he will speak and do.
If I speak the fullness of Messiah but DO NOT, then i do not really have Torah.
But How, if messiah is only a person, be DONE in action?
this is why, Messiah is Torah.
and Torah is to be done- not ONLY BY MESSIAH but by Everyone. (matt5:19)
|19| Therefore, whoever annuls one of the least of these mitzvot (divine commandments given by Hashem to Moshe Rebbenu)
and so teaches Bnei Adam, shall be called katon (least) in
the Malchut HaShomayim; but whoever practices and
teaches them, this one will be called gadol (great) in the
Malchut HaShomayim.

Orthodox Jewish Bible
19. And whoever shall abolish one of these least commandments, and shall teach the sons of men so, the same will be called least in the Kingdom of Heaven. And whoever shall keep one of these least commandments, and shall teach the sons of men so, the same will be called greatest in the Kingdom of Heaven.

Hebrew Roots Version

Torah is Always and continually fulfilling until heaven and earth pass when messiah comes to finish all.
We are not under Torah. If we sin KNowingly we are under its judgements to death and being cut off from the people of G-D.
It's funny how Paul exclaims the same exact concept when he speaks of the man who leaves the faith and it is NEARLY impossible for him to return. This is the same exact teaching in the Torah. They are seperate, they are ONE.

there is a WORK to(of) faith, and a WORK to(of) love. This WORKING is the works of the Torah- however not in FAULTINESS.
1Th 1:3 Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father;

now,
1Th 3:5 For this cause, when I could no longer forbear, I sent to know your faith, lest by some means the tempter have tempted you, and our labour be in vain.

the tempter here is known as the Yetzer hara (the evil inclination inside all men- for this is the person of satan.)
Now, i continually fight this. even though you may find it as vain- I find it defending EVERY word of G-D.

the evil side says to me: " do not wear your tzittzit today those are the only ones you have."

the rebutt is: "G-D commands us to wear these everyday and he sees my needs and will supply accordingly and at the appropriate time so that i can continue in his way."

the satan says: "shave your beard so that you can be clean shaven and then you can attain a wife."

rebutt: "HaShem commands us not to shave the corner of our beards and not to bald our heads- if I am to attain a wife she will be no curse to me, and HaShem will provide according to the need of his sons. For it is not good for a man to be alone- HaShem will give a suitable partner/helper."

the evil side says: " why not wear interwoven garments- you have no other clothes- you have only a few pure linen with you to wear- and what if they are all dirty- surely you must put interwoven linen on your body to cover."

the rebutt:" Why tempt me? I will not fail! The Torah is inside me along with the covenant made to His people which is to last forever as his word decreed amoungst his people. Torah has written itself in my hearts- so I will follow him- this Torah is the hora'ah(Director), Moreh (the Teacher), Horeh (The Father/Parent). And He lives in me- and I do not- But HE. So cease in your vain work to have me bend your way- for I already Bend to another derech(WAY)."

And this here in Hebrews is the OLD COVENANT THAT HAS BEEN DONE AWAY replaced by the NEW as spoken by Jeremiah
Hbr 4:2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard [it].

shalom u'bracha

ps. you can debate, doesnt mean i will give a suitable answer. I just wanted to share
 
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Tawhano said:
Mitsvah = commandments
  1. commandment
    1. commandment (of man)
    2. the commandment (of God)
    3. commandment (of code of wisdom)
derived from:

Tsavah = command

  1. to command, charge, give orders, lay charge, give charge to, order
    1. (Piel)
      1. to lay charge upon
      2. to give charge to, give command to
      3. to give charge unto
      4. to give charge over, appoint
      5. to give charge, command
      6. to charge, command
      7. to charge, commission
      8. to command, appoint, ordain (of divine act)
    2. (Pual) to be commanded
Towrah = law
  1. law, direction, instruction
    1. instruction, direction (human or divine)
      1. body of prophetic teaching
      2. instruction in Messianic age
      3. body of priestly direction or instruction
      4. body of legal directives
    2. law
      1. law of the burnt offering
      2. of special law, codes of law
    3. custom, manner
    4. the Deuteronomic or Mosaic Law

(Gen 26:5) Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

(Exo 16:28) And the LORD said unto Moses, How long refuse ye to keep my commandments and my laws?

(Neh 9:13) Thou camest down also upon mount Sinai, and spakest with them from heaven, and gavest them right judgments, and true laws, good statutes and commandments:


Hi Tawhano,

I am saying that you appear to be confused because you are contradicting yourself continuously in your effort to make the Bible do away with the 10 Commandments. This will continue to happen because the Bible does not do away with the 10 Commandments therefore complex "theories" must be devised in order to try to still keep the harmony of the Bible. The truths of the Bible are simple. In fact you can tell that there is a mis-interpretation of a text or thought if it becomes very complex because the Bible has all of the answers for the questions that it poses. However, it is impossible for the Bible to be consistant if one of the basic principles is mis-interpreted. The Pharasees of Jesus' day did just this. They made the law of God so complex and burdensome that they did not keep it themselves. They made the word of God appear to be a mystery whereas it was very simple. Jesus made it clear to the people that love was the foundation of the 10 Commandments and that they were to be kept in the spirit of love. For instance, He showed that love is the motive behind 6th Commandment.

Matthew 5:21, 22 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment: But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

In other words Jesus showed that hating is the spiritual equivalent to breaking the 6th Commandment. If the 6th Commandment is not a law, how is it that breaking it physically or spiritually places you "under the judgement of the law?"

Do you remember, I asked you what laws remain and you told me that the laws of Jesus in the New Testament remain. You said that the two great commandments of Jesus remain, remember?

I will ask you again to show me the Commandments of Jesus of the New Testament and tell me how they are any different from the Commandments in the Old Testament. This is a simple, un-complex thing to ask, right? I will then show you how you are

Your brother in Christ,
TheTruthSeeker
 
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leecappella

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I think that the two great commandments are equivalent with the 10 commandments. Loving God and loving neighbor is clearly seen in the 10 commandments. If you follow the two great commandments, you will not commit anything listed in the 10 commandments...and vice versa.
 
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leecappella said:
I think that the two great commandments are equivalent with the 10 commandments. Loving God and loving neighbor is clearly seen in the 10 commandments. If you follow the two great commandments, you will not commit anything listed in the 10 commandments...and vice versa.

Hi Leecappella,

Amen!

Now do the 2 great commandments compliment the 10 Commandments or do they do away with the 10 Commandments?

Your brother in Christ,
TheTruthSeeker
 
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leecappella

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thetruthseeker: Amen!
me: Not bad for a gay fella, huh?:clap:

thetruthseeker: Now do the 2 great commandments compliment the 10 Commandments or do they do away with the 10 Commandments?

me: I feel like I'm being tested here:) I think they definitely compliment the 10 commandments. As far as doing away with the 10, I don't see the necessity for the 10 if one is following the 2. They are both similar in my view and so I see no need for two of the same to exist. One will be in effect one way or the other. I think in OT times, the law was given as a schoolmaster, which, in the Greek, means 'to guide to'. So, the law guided us (them) to the new law, which is Christ's law of love, which is summed up in the 2 great commandments on which all else hangs. Adhering to or following a list of rules as a way of life does not change a person's spirit. It can cause one to do what the law asks of them to do, but the spirit still may not be changed and the attitude, motive, and intent of the believer may not be changed while doing what is required of the law. On the other hand, to walk in newness of spirit and not in the law of the letter is to be open to a changed inner man or spirit. To be under the law as a way of life is to depend on one's self to meet the law's requirements and causes one to feel that they've earned salvation. To walk in the Spirit, is to have faith in what was done for us by Christ's death and it causes one to realize that no matter what we do ourselves, the ultimate Judge is God and not ourselves and what we've done to obtain salvation. We focus more on what was done for us and not what we have done. In Christ's law of love, one does things out of love with the right intent with the right heart attitude and all the while in a personal relationship with God. To be under the law as a way of life does not necessarily require the right heart attitude nor does it always result in the right heart attitude. It also does not require a person to have a personal relationship with God. A parent can tell a child to do something and that child may do it unwillingly. Christ's law of love, which is summed up in the 2 great commands, makes us have willing hearts. Many people do what is right with no acknowledgement of God. If such a person walked in the Spirit, I believe God would be acknowledged. It's a heart issue. One requires the heart (Christ's law of love/2 great commandments), the other does not necessarily need it to be done (being under the law/following a list of rules as a way of living). The schoolmaster (the law) has taken us from the flesh and reliance upon self to the Spirit and reliance upon God. And although they are seemingly similar (ie. the 10 commandments and the 2 great commandments), they do not share the same purpose. A life that is led to believe that we are under the law is a life that is required to keep all of the law. It is my understanding that law includes more than just the 10 in the 10 commandments. Some will say that they rely on Christ to help them keep the law, but not one single person can keep all of the law. And the bible seems to be saying that if anyone believes they are under the law, all of the law is to be kept. No one can do this! Not even someone whose sole reliance is evidently upon God. It is inevitable that a law will be broken at some point and time in such a person's life. The purpose of the law was to reveal our inability to keep it. It revealed our sins. It cannot lead to righteousness. The new covenant (Christ's law of love) can lead to righteousness. So, it is my belief that though they are somewhat similar, they are not completely similar and they are in opposition one to the other as the flesh is to the spirit.
 
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Tawhano

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thetruthseeker said:
...because you are contradicting yourself continuously...

Oh? And where did I contradict myself?

thetruthseeker said:
Do you remember, I asked you what laws remain and you told me that the laws of Jesus in the New Testament remain. You said that the two great commandments of Jesus remain, remember?

Remain? I said nothing about anything remaining. I said quite clearly that Jesus gave us a new commandment, nothing about something remaining.

thetruthseeker said:
I will ask you again to show me the Commandments of Jesus of the New Testament and tell me how they are any different from the Commandments in the Old Testament.

This is evading the issue. Every time you see the new commandment being compared with the old it is to show you the reason why nobody could keep the laws. Nowhere in any of the verses you quoted where the new was compared with the old does it say keep the old. It shows quite clearly what was missing from their attempts to keep the old commandments and law.

I have a question for you. Why do you avoid addressing post# 92?
 
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Achichem

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Colossians,
Wrong, that is not what I said at all, I said to be careful and not do the things, which are not for the spirit.
No you didn't. You said: "do not in your not following of the law forget to keep your acts following the spirit in the precepts of the law"
Did you not read what I posted, ie. Galatians 5:19-30

There it gives a clear list of things which are not in the spirit and guess what, all those things are in the law that is why I defined “precept of the law” as that list Paul gave, I am sorry for being unclear.
There you go again. Just can't help yourself can you? You try and cover it up in words like "spirit" and "fruits" and "precepts", but you eventually reveal your true colors: law following.
No I am not saying you have to follow the written law! But yes I am saying your acts should be contained within it anyways, as defined by the list provided by Paul. It is not a guise for following the law, it is saying that to be in the spirit you must walk as the spirit does.

Following the law and following the precepts are different;and yet result in the same. One is written and understood in faith and the other can simply be found without anything but faith.

You see you are saying that you follow the precepts of the law, and that is fine and good! By precepts I mean the things listed remember that.I was just making sure you understand that they are precepts of the law.

…law is not of faith…. See post #78 on the context.

You have to see that this statement is not talking about what I am saying.This statement is about those who follow the law without faith,because they try and justify themselves in the law.
Not people who read and keep the laws out of faith, like James, Peter or king David.

I will show you an example of the difference:
A legalist: Would keep the holy days because they are written in the laws, and anyone who does not follow them would in their eyes be a transgressor of the law, thus unrighteous.

What am I saying: I follow the holy days because God said they were his, and so I now consider them mine. In my eyes one who does not keep the holy days is no more or less righteous.

Do you see how different these are? and do you see how Paul statements are not directed to what I am referring?

Or let me take another example of a different sort.
Galatians 5:2, NKJV:
Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing.
I was circumcised as a child, not because I was a Jew or that my family was followers of the law, but because my mother felt that I should be. Now I ask you is Christ no profit towards me as someone who is circumcised as a child? or must the context and audience play a role in what is being said!
First I do not see him that way at all, second I use the small "s" because I still believe the spirit to be the living power of God, and not an entity of its own merit, however seeing it that way in no way affects my option on the subject, nor changes any of my arguments.
This is your fundamental problem. You can't follow Him because you do not know He exists. This is strong evidence that you do not know the Lord personally. All spirits are persons.
If you understood how I saw the spirit as a living personified power of God you would see how there is no conflict, but since that will take too much time. Let me just tell you something above and beyond this fact.

The spirit is no different then Jesus of the new testament.You assuming that the spirit within you is of Christ is a bold of you, one must look at the fruits of the spirit to see its true nature, if that nature is contrary to God, that spirit is not God nor of God. If you do not see that yet clam to have wisdom, then I am afraid you need to rethink things.
actually I have .. shown and demonstrated in many if not all of the disciples..following of the law by faith,
Your interpretations are necessarily wrong, for "(keeping) the law is not of faith" Gal 3:12.
Perhaps the amplified bible will help you here:
"But the law does not rest on faith - does not require faith, has nothing to do with faith - for it says, He who does them (the things prescribed by the Law) shall live by them, [not by faith]."
An interesting theory yet hardly relevant.
First if you are claming whoever follows the law is evil despite his motives, then you could not explain Paul, James, Peter nor many others. You see you must look at motives; they are at the root of this. I agree with everything that scripture says, but you see This is not talking about following the law, but holding yourself under the law (see my legalist example), but what you fail to see is I am not a legalist like the SDA (from what I understand), nor from what I understand is a Messianic Jews, we follow the law not due to obligation but because we have nothing to say against it. You see we no longer see it as law, instead we see it as simple words, we follow the words,words in which the spirit makes living!

Let me give you some more examples:

Let us take “thou shall not covet”

A legalist would see this and say I shall not covet because it is against the law! Yet this does not even cross the mind of a follower of the law, instead we say if God tells us he does not covet then why should I covet, and in so we follow the law.

Let us take the Sabbath day

A legalist would see this and say I shall keep the Sabbath day because that law says rest, and he who does not rest will surely die. Yet, we as followers of the law do no such thing, we follow the law because our God kept the Sabbath day, we do it because he set that day special! What do we say to those who do not kept the Sabbath? Not “you shall surly die” but “come and join us friend and brother to keep the day of our Lord”.


Do you see how theses are different and I am not in fact a legalist but a follower of the law? Remember I somewhat agree with your heading, in the way that legalist are wrong.
What laws do you think will be in ChristKingdom?
"The kingdom of God is within you". It is not a future event.
You say to me first that you live with Christ and he guilds all you do yet you discredit that your acts follow the guidelines set out in the law(precepts), that confuses me. It paints for me the picture that you think of yourself equal to God. You seem to deny his authority.

As for this statement, this is not the right place to debate this, however I am afraid that what you say may be the most unfounded thing I have heard yet. The fact that you deny the realism of Jesus prophecy actually means once again you challenge his authority,
however if you would like I will go over this with you in another thread
By the way, I do not know you point of view on this subject but I will give a brief of mine:
  • The kingdom shall come and mark judgment day
  • No one is judged at death
  • Though we belong to his kingdom well we walk the earth we are still here
  • epople who did not find truth in this life will get a small window(second chance) to repent, under knowledge of the truth, and have the possiblity to come to God

    Anyways like I said, I am flabbergasted at the fact you think christs kingdom is just a metaphor, but that is a topic for a different thread.

    God bless,
    Datsar
ps: many of the things I said need to be taken in context so please do not take and split up things which belong together.Ie If you quote one sentance, you response should be to the whole paragraph that the sentance was in.
 
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Datsar

.. that is not what I said at all, I said to be careful and not do the things, which are not for the spirit.
No you didn't. You said: "do not in your not following of the law forget to keep your acts following the spirit in the precepts of the law"

Did you not read what I posted, ie. Galatians 5:19-30
The issue was not what the bible says, it was what you said. You have been caught out. Do not waste my time slipping out of blatant contradictions. They are printed above for all to see.

No I am not saying you HAVE TO to follow the written law! But yes I am saying your acts SHOULD BE contained within it anyways, as defined by the list provided by Paul.
“should be” = "have to".

Following the law and following the precepts are different
Why did you look for your precepts in the law?

…law is not of faith….
This statement is about those who follow the law without faith,

It is saying that law following is never by faith.

If you understood how I saw the spirit as a living personified power
To admit to personification is to admit to fundamental error. We worship a Person, not a personification.

You assuming that the spirit within you is of Christ is a bold of you, one must look at the fruits of the spirit to see its true nature, if that nature is contrary to God, that spirit is not God nor of God.
Once again your derived ‘spirit’, derived by your law keeping. The Spirit is a person: His presence is not derived, it is known. And it is His presence which justifies. That your spirit’s presence is derived by your law keeping, means you are justified by law.

This is not talking about following the law, but holding yourself under the law
You may not separate out the notions of the law on their own, from the full fabric of the law, and refer to this as “the law”. The Law = Law giver + Law receiver + notions communicated + penalty for transgression. The law is never notional.
“Thou shalt not add any word thereto, nor diminish ought from it” Deut 4. You are constantly in transgression of this law, and because you desire to be under the law, God will judge this your transgression of it, and you will be found wanting.

.. because our God kept the Sabbath day, we do it because he set that day special! What do we say to those who do not kept the Sabbath? Not “you shall surly die” but “come and join us friend and brother to keep the day of our Lord”.
It is quite simple to prove your dishonesty here. We shall do an experiment. You shall tell God you will not keep the Sabbath next Saturday, that you are doing an experiment with some debaters to put your actions where your mouth is, and show them you are not under the law. You shall go shopping, play golf, buy gasoline for your car, mow the lawn, go to the movies, etc. God will not be angry with you, for there is no obligation over you anyway, for you are not under the law. (We look forward to your innovative evasion here.)
 
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leecappella said:
thetruthseeker: Amen!
me: Not bad for a gay fella, huh?:clap:

thetruthseeker: Now do the 2 great commandments compliment the 10 Commandments or do they do away with the 10 Commandments?

me: I feel like I'm being tested here:) I think they definitely compliment the 10 commandments. As far as doing away with the 10, I don't see the necessity for the 10 if one is following the 2. They are both similar in my view and so I see no need for two of the same to exist. One will be in effect one way or the other. I think in OT times, the law was given as a schoolmaster, which, in the Greek, means 'to guide to'. So, the law guided us (them) to the new law, which is Christ's law of love, which is summed up in the 2 great commandments on which all else hangs. Adhering to or following a list of rules as a way of life does not change a person's spirit. It can cause one to do what the law asks of them to do, but the spirit still may not be changed and the attitude, motive, and intent of the believer may not be changed while doing what is required of the law. On the other hand, to walk in newness of spirit and not in the law of the letter is to be open to a changed inner man or spirit. To be under the law as a way of life is to depend on one's self to meet the law's requirements and causes one to feel that they've earned salvation. To walk in the Spirit, is to have faith in what was done for us by Christ's death and it causes one to realize that no matter what we do ourselves, the ultimate Judge is God and not ourselves and what we've done to obtain salvation. We focus more on what was done for us and not what we have done. In Christ's law of love, one does things out of love with the right intent with the right heart attitude and all the while in a personal relationship with God. To be under the law as a way of life does not necessarily require the right heart attitude nor does it always result in the right heart attitude. It also does not require a person to have a personal relationship with God. A parent can tell a child to do something and that child may do it unwillingly. Christ's law of love, which is summed up in the 2 great commands, makes us have willing hearts. Many people do what is right with no acknowledgement of God. If such a person walked in the Spirit, I believe God would be acknowledged. It's a heart issue. One requires the heart (Christ's law of love/2 great commandments), the other does not necessarily need it to be done (being under the law/following a list of rules as a way of living). The schoolmaster (the law) has taken us from the flesh and reliance upon self to the Spirit and reliance upon God. And although they are seemingly similar (ie. the 10 commandments and the 2 great commandments), they do not share the same purpose. A life that is led to believe that we are under the law is a life that is required to keep all of the law. It is my understanding that law includes more than just the 10 in the 10 commandments. Some will say that they rely on Christ to help them keep the law, but not one single person can keep all of the law. And the bible seems to be saying that if anyone believes they are under the law, all of the law is to be kept. No one can do this! Not even someone whose sole reliance is evidently upon God. It is inevitable that a law will be broken at some point and time in such a person's life. The purpose of the law was to reveal our inability to keep it. It revealed our sins. It cannot lead to righteousness. The new covenant (Christ's law of love) can lead to righteousness. So, it is my belief that though they are somewhat similar, they are not completely similar and they are in opposition one to the other as the flesh is to the spirit.
Hi leecappella,

It was a test question. The 2 Commandments are not extra Commandments. They are in fact a summary of the 10 Commandments. The "love God with all your heart" refers to the first 4 of the 10 Commandments. The "love you neighbor as yourself" refer to the last 6 of the 10 Commandments. You see, first 4 Commandments deal with our duty and love for God and the last 6 of the 10 Commandments deal with our duty and love for man.

Your previous post was on point. The 2 great laws emphesis the spirit and motive for keeping the 10 Commandments: love.

Your brother in Christ,
TheTruthSeeker
 
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Tawhano said:
Oh? And where did I contradict myself?



Remain? I said nothing about anything remaining. I said quite clearly that Jesus gave us a new commandment, nothing about something remaining.



This is evading the issue. Every time you see the new commandment being compared with the old it is to show you the reason why nobody could keep the laws. Nowhere in any of the verses you quoted where the new was compared with the old does it say keep the old. It shows quite clearly what was missing from their attempts to keep the old commandments and law.

I have a question for you. Why do you avoid addressing post# 92?
Hi Tawhano,

I am saying that you appear to be confused because you are contradicting yourself continuously in your effort to make the Bible do away with the 10 Commandments. This will continue to happen because the Bible does not do away with the 10 Commandments therefore complex "theories" must be devised in order to try to still keep the harmony of the Bible. The truths of the Bible are simple. What can be more simple to understand then:

Matthew 14:15 If you love me keep my commandments.
?

In fact you can tell that there is a mis-interpretation of a text or thought if it becomes very complex because the Bible has all of the answers for the questions that it poses. However, it is impossible for the Bible to be consistant if one of the basic principles is mis-interpreted. The Pharasees of Jesus' day did just this. They made the law of God so complex and burdensome that they did not keep it themselves. They made the word of God appear to be a mystery whereas it was very simple. Jesus made it clear to the people that love was the foundation of the 10 Commandments and that they were to be kept in the spirit of love. For instance, He showed that love is the motive behind 6th Commandment.

Matthew 5:21, 22 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment: But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

In other words Jesus showed that hating is the spiritual equivalent to breaking the 6th Commandment. If the 6th Commandment is not a law, how is it that breaking it physically or spiritually places you "under the judgement of the law?"

I have been asking you simple questions all along and, in fact, you have been evading the issue. The question above is a simple question isn't it? You have not given me a direct answer to any of my questions, Tawhano.

Do you remember, I asked you what laws remain and you told me that the laws of Jesus in the New Testament remain. You said that the two great commandments of Jesus remain, remember?

I will ask you again to show me the Commandments of Jesus of the New Testament and tell me how they are any different from the Commandments in the Old Testament. This is a simple, un-complex thing to ask, right? I will then answer any question that you have for me to answer. I will show you were you are un-intentionally mis-interpreting the word.

Your brother in Christ,
TheTruthSeeker
 
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