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Colossians

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Sojeru,

collosians
you are ceared, my discussion belongs only to tawhano unless he shows the same tht you show.

It's my thread, and if you say things outlandish on my thread, such as "the 10 are in the 2", twisting scripture from the original which says that the 10 hang on the 2, then, as a responsibility to the Body of Christ, I will reply.

Lies may obtain no sanctuary in the Body of Christ.
 
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Colossians

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Datsar,

What am asking does God do everything that is contained within the laws?
Is there a penalty if He doesn't? Is there a penalty if you don't?
If one of either God or you has a penalty, and the other one doesn't, what can you deduce from this with regard to just who is under law?

Do you think a Christian who learns and lives by the laws is condemned?
His activities in this regard fall into the category of 1 Cor 3:11-16: his works will be burned up, yet he himself will be saved, yet "as through fire".
In other words, you do not disagree with me! If you think I will be saved despite my acts, and I say the same about you, then why are we arguing?
So you think it's a good idea to continue doing acts which God burns up?

DO you know what you are saying by Christians have no principles?
Why do you not see that a 'principle' is of the 'Tree of the knowledge of good and evil'?
Here's a question for you: You think you are not eating from the 'Tree of the knowledge of good and evil'. If you were eating from it, how would your activities differ from what they are now?

You must look in yourself and see, are you in the spirit or in the flesh? You miss this step can you even see the master anymore?
Your 'Master' appears to be not a person, but a personification - a personification of precepts. If there were no bible to read from, and you lived on a desert island pre 'conversion', how would you ever be saved?
Remember Jesus' words: not "you didn't keep the law", but "I never knew you". Is your knowing Him a personal knowing, as a husband knows his wife, or is it merely a derived knowing, based on whether you abide by written words?

sure, they are not laws, they are now just the plain out words of God.
So you diminish the law to mere notions? In so doing, you transgress the law, for it is written, "ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish aught from it" Deut 4:2. It is illegal to reduce the law from the full fabric of it, necessarily including penalty. The law is a discrete, stand-alone, closed, entity. It may not be adapted to a different dispensation, or modified. It's framework is locked in, and concerns specific persons, and specific penalties.
 
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thetruthseeker

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Colossians said:
Truthseeker,

So you can't answer the 2 questions, or you can but you don't want to?

Hi Colossians,

What questions are you referring too? Have you read my posts? Tell me specifically how I have not answered your questions?

Do you now understand what the Law of Moses consist of?

Your brother in Christ,
TheTruthSeeker
 
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thetruthseeker

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Andrew said:
Colossians,

you sound a lot like my Pastor, although I've not read everything you've posted. But we preach radical grace too, the version that Paul preached. Are you sure you are not from my church? *LOL

Hi Andrew,

Put your trust not in man, trust in Jesus.

The radical grace that Paul refers to can be found in the Old Testament. Grace is not something that just appeared in the New Testament. Again, all the servants of God in the Bible have been saying the same thing. The Old Testament is part of the Bible too, Andrew. Remember the following:

2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

Here's a few examples of grace in the Old Testament, again, grace is not something that just showed up in the New Testament:

Genesis 6:8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD

Psalms 84:11 For the LORD God is a sun and shield: the LORD will give grace and glory: no good thing will he withhold from them that walk uprightly.

3:34 Surely he scorneth the scorners: but he giveth grace unto the lowly.


Jeremiah 31:2, 3 Thus saith the LORD, The people which were left of the sword found grace in the wilderness; even Israel, when I went to cause him to rest. The LORD hath appeared of old unto me, saying , Yea, I have loved thee with an everlasting love: therefore with lovingkindness have I drawn thee.

Your brother in Christ,
TheTruthSeeker
 
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Colossians

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Moving right along...

Romans 7:5 tells us that "the motions of sin are by the law".
A good example of this might be your giving a commandment to your child: the first thing he does is ...? (you guessed it, test it out).

That the motions of sin are by the law, reveals that the law, though good and holy of itself, invokes a compulsion to go against it.
And the teaching in this scripture is plain: we are to die to the law if we are to become dead to sin, and alive to Christ.

Those who think that the law should be followed, militate against their own intention, for they follow that which invokes a compulsion to break it. They will no doubt be those who are forever plagued with a sin conciousness, and over whom sin has a great hold indeed.

I once argued with a legalist on another site. He was as viciously defensive of the law as one could imagine.
I met him at a later stage in a chat room, although he didn't know who I was. I'm glad I did - he revealed he was a polygamist. The penny dropped: the law does not condemn polygamy, and that is why he fought for it like a tiger in a tank.
The love of the NT, on the other hand, covers all bases.
 
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thetruthseeker

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Tawhano said:
You got to love that kind of rebuttal; I quote scripture to you and you tell me it is un-Biblical.

John 15:10
If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.


Your confusion here seems to be that you think because the word commandment is there it means the Ten Commandments. It means all of God’s precepts and all of Jesus’ precepts. Jesus came to fulfill the law of the old covenant and replace it with a new covenant as the scriptures teach us. Of course the commandments of Jesus come from the Father, as he did nothing of himself, but this verse is showing the separation of the old and the new, the old being that of the Father and the new being that which Jesus herald in.

Hebrews 8:13
In that he saith, A new [covenant], he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old [is] ready to vanish away.


Jesus fulfilled the first and herald in the new. Jesus is our High Priest after the order of Melchisedec.

Hebrews 7:11-12
If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need [was there] that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron? For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.


And yet you believe nothing has changed?

Galatians 3:23-25
But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster [to bring us] unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.


Nothing has changed? By fulfilling the law Jesus set us free from the law and we were no longer under the schoolmaster. Prior to the sacrifice Jesus made for us all were lost to sin. None were justified by the law.

Romans 2:13
For not the hearers of the law [are] just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.


Wait a minute; isn’t this saying they were justified by the law?

Romans 3:9-10
What then? are we better [than they]? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin; As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:


Romans 3:20
Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law [is] the knowledge of sin.


No, not one person was justified by the law. All were unable to keep the laws. So under the law none were righteous. Something had to change or heaven would be an empty place.

Romans 7:6
But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not [in] the oldness of the letter.


Colossians 2:13-14
And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;


Nothing had changed? If nothing had changed then we would be dead in our sins still.


Hi Tawhano,

Did you get the following?

Per your posts, it appears as if you are confused as to what was "nailed to the cross." Hint: it was the Law of Moses. What were the Law of Moses? Stay tuned and you will find out.

NOTE: THIS IS A REPOST OF ONE OF MY OLD POSTS

There is a sharp distinction between the Law of God (10 Commandments) and the Law of Moses (ordinances--civil laws "statutes and judgments" and ceremonial laws). The Law of God is eternal and the Law of Moses was made void at the cross.

Jesus said the following to Israel:

2 Kings 21:8 Neither will I make the feet of Israel move any more out of the land which I gave their fathers; only if they will observe to do according to all that I have commanded them, and according to all the law that my servant Moses commanded them.

Moses said the following:

Deuteronomy 4:13, 14 And he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, even ten commandments; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone. And the LORD commanded me at that time to teach you statutes and judgments, that ye might do them in the land whither ye go over to possess it.

The Law of God (10 Commandment) and the Law of Moses (civil and ceremonial laws) were never equal.

As you know, Jesus wrote the 10 Commandments.

Exodus 31:18 And he gave unto Moses, when he had made an end of communing with him upon mount Sinai, two tables of testimony, tables of stone, written with the finger of God.

As you know, Moses wrote "the Law of Moses."

Deuteronomy 31:9 And Moses wrote this law, and delivered it unto the priests the sons of Levi, which bare the ark of the covenant of the LORD, and unto all the elders of Israel.

Moses put the 10 Commandments into the ark of the testimony but put his book of laws beside the ark of the testimony.

Exodus 25:16 And thou shalt put into the ark the testimony which I shall give thee.

Deuteronomy 31:24-26 And it came to pass, when Moses had made an end of writing the words of this law in a book, until they were finished, That Moses commanded the Levites, which bare the ark of the covenant of the LORD, saying, Take this book of the law, and put it in the side of the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it may be there for a witness against thee.

Notice how the Law of Moses is said to be "against" (contrary-Colossians 2:14) the people in Deuteronomy. Why? Because it was understood that the people of Israel had not obeyed and would not obey and therefore face the judgements or curses that were written in the Book of Moses (Law of Moses).

Ezekiel 20:24, 25 Because they had not executed my judgments, but had despised my statutes, and had polluted my sabbaths, and their eyes were after their fathers' idols. Wherefore I gave them also statutes that were not good, and judgments whereby they should not live;

The Law of Moses are called "carnal commandments." This means that they are not eternal. They were short-lived.

Hebrews 7:12-16 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law. For he of whom these things are spoken pertaineth to another tribe, of which no man gave attendance at the altar. For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood. And it is yet far more evident: for that after the similitude of Melchisedec there ariseth another priest, Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life.

This is why Paul said that Jesus abolished the "commandments contained in the ordinances."

Ephesians 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

Remember, all ceremonial laws pointed to the ultimate sacrifice of Jesus Christ (the Lamb). They were to be abolished by the death of Jesus.

Hebrews 9:9, 10 Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience; _Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.

Daniel 9:24-27 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

In Bible prophecy, one prophetic day is equal to one year (Numbers 14:23; Eziekel 4:6).

According to Daniel 9:24-27, ancient Israel had 490 years (70 weeks) to get it "right" with the Lord "make an end of sin" or repent.

The "commandment to restore and rebuild Jerusalem" was proclaimed in 457 B.C. (Ezra 7:1-27) by Artaxerxes.

Jesus started His mission 483 years (69 weeks) after the command to rebuild Jerusalem, at His baptism.

He confirmed the covenant for 1 week (7 years) and caused the "sacrifice and oblation to cease" in the middle of the week (3 1/2 years--the duration of Jesus' ministry before He was crucified). God gave ancient Israel 3 1/2 years after His death to repent--to get it right. However, this grace ended after Steven was stoned 3 1/2 years later and the gospel went to the Gentiles.

The death of Jesus brought an end to meat offerings, sacrifices etc... They all had a part in the yearly sabbaths, feasts. Jesus caused the "sacrifice and oblation" to cease.

This was confirmed by the ripping of the veil in the temple.

Mark 15:37, 37 And Jesus cried with a loud voice, and gave up the ghost. And the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom.

Colossians 2 is referring to yearly sabbaths being nailed to the cross not the weekly Sabbath day. Leviticus 23 names 7 yearly sabbaths.

Leviticus says that the yearly sabbaths were to be kept along wth the "Sabbaths of the Lord" (weekly Sabbath--Saturday).

Leviticus 23:37-38 These are the feasts of the LORD, which ye shall proclaim to be holy convocations, to offer an offering made by fire unto the LORD, a burnt offering, and a meat offering, a sacrifice, and drink offerings, every thing upon his day: Beside the sabbaths of the LORD, and beside your gifts, and beside all your vows, and beside all your freewill offerings, which ye give unto the LORD.

Concerning the shadows, the Ultimate Sacrifice (the center of each type) was given for each one. This means that they are no longer binding. However, they are still being fulfilled. That is another topic all together. Do you think we should start a new thread for that?

These shadows were given because of sin. However, the weekly Sabbath (Saturday) existed before there was any sin. Therefore, it is not classified as a "carnal commandment or ordinance."

Now back to the original thought.

The following is the original meaning of the word "iniquity."

00458:
458 anomia an-om-ee'-ah from 459; illegality, i.e. violation of law or (genitive case) wickedness:--iniquity, X transgress(-ion of) the law, unrighteousness. see GREEK for 459


Remember, Jesus said:

Matthew 7:21-23 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

1 John 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

My question again is simply this: What law is violated or transgressed here?

Your brother in Christ,
TheTruthSeeker
 
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thetruthseeker

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Colossians said:
Truthseeker,

You have been continually swamping the thread in multiple repeats of your enormously long posts.
Please cease from this.

Hi Colossians,

I you've read the long posts Colossians, you will find that I have been answering your questions in them. My post to Tawhano was also meant for you (second to the last post):

http://www.christianforum.com/t52457&page=9

Do you, now, understand what the Law of Moses consists of? Have all of your questions been answered? If not, just ask.

Your brother in Christ,
TheTruthSeeker
 
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Tawhano

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When Moses first went before the Lord in Mount Horeb, before he was given the tablets of stone, God gave Moses the Ten Commandments and the laws, which he wrote in a book. In fact God first gave the Ten Commandments to all the people ‘in person’ (Exodus 20:1) before they were written down in stone.

Exodus 24:3-4
And Moses came and told the people all the words of the LORD, and all the judgments: and all the people answered with one voice, and said, All the words which the LORD hath said will we do. And Moses wrote all the words of the LORD, and rose up early in the morning, and builded an altar under the hill, and twelve pillars, according to the twelve tribes of Israel.


Later on God gave Moses the stones, which were later broken and written over again. So it is true that the Ten Commandments were separate from the law. So what were the Ten Commandments if they were not part of the law?

Exodus 34:27
And the LORD said unto Moses, Write thou these words: for after the tenor of these words I have made a covenant with thee and with Israel.


Deuteronomy 4:13-14
And he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, [even] ten commandments; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone. And the LORD commanded me at that time to teach you statutes and judgments, that ye might do them in the land whither ye go over to possess it.


They were the Covenant that God made with Moses and the children of Israel. God made this covenant AND gave them laws to follow. Moral and ceremonial laws were covered in the statutes and judgements that Moses wrote down in the book which he taught Israel. The Ten Commandments written in stone was the Covenant God made with them.

Deuteronomy 5:1-3
And Moses called all Israel, and said unto them, Hear, O Israel, the statutes and judgments which I speak in your ears this day, that ye may learn them, and keep, and do them. The LORD our God made a covenant with us in Horeb. The LORD made not this covenant with our fathers, but with us, [even] us, who [are] all of us here alive this day.


God made this covenant with Israel and no other people. So how did the gentiles get into the picture?

Judges 2:20
And the anger of the LORD was hot against Israel; and he said, Because that this people hath transgressed my covenant which I commanded their fathers, and have not hearkened unto my voice;


Hosea 2:23
And I will sow her unto me in the earth; and I will have mercy upon her that had not obtained mercy; and I will say to [them which were] not my people, Thou [art] my people; and they shall say, [Thou art] my God.


Romans 9:25
As he saith also in Osee (Hosea 2:23), I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.


But what about the covenant that God made with Israel? What happened to the Ten Commandments?

Jeremiah 31:31-33
Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day [that] I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: But this [shall be] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall

be my people.

A new covenant, not written in stone but in the hearts

Hebrews 12:24
And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than [that of] Abel.


Hebrews 9:15
And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions [that were] under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.


And what of the old covenant?

Hebrews 8:13
In that he saith, A new [covenant], he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old [is] ready to vanish away.


Hebrews 8:6-7
But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises. For if that first [covenant] had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.


I chose to live in the new covenant.
 
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Tawhano

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thetruthseeker said:

Matthew 7:21-23
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

1 John 2:4
He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

My question again is simply this: What law is violated or transgressed here?

No law was violated, the commandment of Jesus (the new covenant) was broken.
 
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thetruthseeker

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Tawhano said:
No law was violated, the commandment of Jesus (the new covenant) was broken.

Hi Tawhano,

Happy Sabbath.

You still appear to be a little confused. First there was the confusion about the "great law" then the "Law of Moses" and now there is confusion about what the Old and New Covenants consist of. I will try to clear it up for you as concisely as possible but first I have a few questions to ask you.

Where did you get the notion that commandments are not laws? What commandment of Jesus was broken?

What commandments make up the new covenant?

Here's a hint: Paul and James summarized them. I know we've seen these verses before, right?


Paul said the following:

Romans 13:8, 9 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law. For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

The above quote is a summary of the last 6 of the 10 Commandments. You could have also quoted this:

James 2:8-12 If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself , ye do well: But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors. For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law. So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.

James calls the 10 Commandments "the royal law" (not the "carnal commandment") and "the law of liberty."

Both James and Paul are quoting Jesus.

Here's the verse again.

Matthew 22:36-40 Master, which is the great commandment in the law? Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

In Matthew 22:36-40, Jesus is quoting the Old Testament.

If "Thou shalt love thy neighbor as yourself " summarizes ("briefly comprehended ") the last 6 Commandments (these refer to our love and duty for our neighbors). What Commandments do "Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind " summarize? The first 4 Commandments of the 10 Commandments. The first 4 Commandments refer to our love and duty to Jesus.

Jesus is saying in Matthew 22:35-40 that the 10 Commandments summarizes the entire Bible (law and the prophets, the Bible is a book of laws and prophecies) and that love summarizes the 10 Commandments (and that the 10 Commandments ought to be kept in the spirit of love).

Do we have a duty to keep the first 4 Commandments (including 4th--Sabbath day)? Yes, the Bible makes it plain. Because of this I will not:
1) Have any other gods but Jesus
2) Make images that I bow down to and worship
3) Take the name of Jesus in vain
4) Break the Sabbath

Here are the questions again:

Where did you get the notion that commandments are not laws? What commandment of Jesus was broken?

What commandments make up the new covenant?



Your brother in Christ,
TheTruthSeeker
 
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Achichem

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Thetruthseeker, Tawhano, Colossians,

Since it is clear that we are not satisfied, and no one has come to any brake through, and all of us a felt the need to repeat our selves quite a few times. I feel it is time for a formal debate on the issue.

Here is the link to the official Debate Invite thread.
http://www.christianforums.com/t55317
 
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Colossians

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Describing a personal relationship with the Lord to a legalist is like trying to describe emotion to a robot.
Legalists in general do not know Christ as a person, but merely as a personification of written words/precepts. The concept is in fact so far removed from them that they fail to even grasp what it is they don't have.

To them it is clear: follow the commandments and you will evidence to both yourself and others that you know God. It is a derived relationship, not an actual relationship.

If those of you from the grace camp think this is a big call, consider the vehemence of opposition the legalists offer to the preeminence of Christ's work at Calvary. For if these truly were brothers in Christ, whilst there will always be some disagreement on finer points, at the fundamental level, the level that speaks to the unquestioned assurance of salvation based upon personal experience, and not on written words, there would be agreement.

There is no agreement whatsoever.
But this is not the main problem. The main problem is that they simply don't want to know, and don't care that they don't want to know. Obsessed with superstitious zeal for the written code of scripture, they will pursue it with incessant fury for the rest of their lives in the hope that someday, somehow, they will obtain that which they do not even realise they seek: assurance.
 
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Tawhano

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thetruthseeker said:
Where did you get the notion that commandments are not laws?

Mitsvah = commandments
  1. commandment
    1. commandment (of man)
    2. the commandment (of God)
    3. commandment (of code of wisdom)
derived from:

Tsavah = command

  1. to command, charge, give orders, lay charge, give charge to, order
    1. (Piel)
      1. to lay charge upon
      2. to give charge to, give command to
      3. to give charge unto
      4. to give charge over, appoint
      5. to give charge, command
      6. to charge, command
      7. to charge, commission
      8. to command, appoint, ordain (of divine act)
    2. (Pual) to be commanded
Towrah = law
  1. law, direction, instruction
    1. instruction, direction (human or divine)
      1. body of prophetic teaching
      2. instruction in Messianic age
      3. body of priestly direction or instruction
      4. body of legal directives
    2. law
      1. law of the burnt offering
      2. of special law, codes of law
    3. custom, manner
    4. the Deuteronomic or Mosaic Law

(Gen 26:5) Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

(Exo 16:28) And the LORD said unto Moses, How long refuse ye to keep my commandments and my laws?

(Neh 9:13) Thou camest down also upon mount Sinai, and spakest with them from heaven, and gavest them right judgments, and true laws, good statutes and commandments:
 
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Vollkommen Warrior

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"Here is the link to the official Debate Invite thread." Hasn't the debate been won or whittled down to the answer already?
Tawhano said:
Judges 2:20
And the anger of the LORD was hot against Israel; and he said, Because that this people hath transgressed my covenant which I commanded their fathers, and have not hearkened unto my voice;
Tawhano by far makes the most sense in my opinion. What I don't understand though is that as Christians, we try but fail a lot in the process. Isn't this equivalent to people hath transgressed my covenant ? Or is it by grace that we are saved because we try to keep with the new covenant. Meaning, as it is written in our hearts, we have not forgotten the Lord even though we may fall vs the definition of "transgressed"...I guess meaning "totally forgotten?" Secondly, does this mean that those practicing the law are not recognized unless they have received the spirit of the law by truely accepting Christ as their Lord and Savior and closely following his teachings? It is clear to me that your words speak the truth. Is it that those that live under the law simply attach this to their identity and refuse to give it up because of that or pride or what? I am not trying to offend anyone who enjoys practicing the law but Tawhano's and some other's point is totally clear. What should the law "practicer's" do? Stop practicing law? I am not totally sure of the answers but wonder your opinion and some of the others that agree with it. Thanks!:wave:

"1 John 2:4
He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. "


The new covenant was broken...Again, I try but screw up from time to time. This in a sense means I am breaking a covenant. How am I staying saved then?


 
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Achichem

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How do you expect me to respond to this? Is this intended to bring anger? Is this intended to give me some type of insight in to my mind? Is this meant to insult me? Warn me? Tell me something?

Because I see no point?
Colossians said:
Describing a personal relationship with the Lord to a legalist is like trying to describe emotion to a robot.
LOL, Ok you assume much about me and my fellow followers of the law, I am glad you love us so much you compare us to a dead object.

I would not usually regard my self a legalist, which is of course very different from what we all are here, but of course I know this is intended towards me so I feel a response is indeed necessary.
Legalists in general do not know Christ as a person, but merely as a personification of written words/precepts. The concept is in fact so far removed from them that they fail to even grasp what it is they don't have.
LOL, I praise you friend and brother for assuming you have Jesus living inside of you (which I would not be surprised in one bit) however you also have the flesh, they both live, but one is everlasting life and one leads to death, you choose which to feed by your acts and decisions, in what you choose to say and what you choose not to, you assume we do not know this same Christ, when you yourself do nothing as he did or will ever do. I say to you a warning: Stop feeding the flesh by judgement and arrogance!

To them it is clear: follow the commandments and you will evidence to both yourself and others that you know God. It is a derived relationship, not an actual relationship.
LOL,


If those of you from the grace camp think this is a big call, consider the vehemence of opposition the legalists offer to the preeminence of Christ's work at Calvary. For if these truly were brothers in Christ, whilst there will always be some disagreement on finer points, at the fundamental level, the level that speaks to the unquestioned assurance of salvation based upon personal experience, and not on written words, there would be agreement.
That is the problem, there should not be a grace camp and another for those who follow the law out of grace, and instead we should see that if our fruits are true they are the same.


There is no agreement whatsoever.
But this is not the main problem. The main problem is that they simply don't want to know, and don't care that they don't want to know. Obsessed with superstitious zeal for the written code of scripture, they will pursue it with incessant fury for the rest of their lives in the hope that someday, somehow, they will obtain that which they do not even realise they seek: assurance.
We do not care? Or you? I have seen you use ellipse in a book with verses and you gave no alternatives positions on the context of Paul’s letters other then face value, of course you are adamant about context in all other parts of the bible! You have based most of you positions on assumptions, and refuse to talk about James, Peter or Jude, how all clearly demonstrate the same attitude toward the law as me and many others here. You refuse to believe Peters warning.

Following the law is a way of life!
No body said it was required, only that is a good guild to follow,
Of course we believe the same as you that it is the spirit that leads,
But there are many other voices and if you do not feed the spirit, its wisdom will simply slowly vanish away.

God bless,
Datsar
 
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