Not under the law

[Colossians]

The legalist tells us that we should keep the Ten commandments.

He is living in the past.
God tells us "Ye are not under the law" Rom 6:14.

Accordingly, "..old things have passed away.." 2 Cor 5:17

 

[4sightsounds]

Matthew 5:17 ¶ Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach [them], the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed [the righteousness] of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Yes, law condemns....but we are supposed to live by its precepts as an act of love and not fear.

 

[duster1az]

Are Christians supposed to be governed by the Decalogue in their daily lives?

Scripture answers, "Ye are not under the law, but grace" (Rom. 6:14).

Does this mean that the moral values of the law are discarded? Not at all, for every moral precept of the Decalogue, except one, is restated under grace. They don't appear under the character of the law, but under the character of grace.

Law demands, "Thou shalt have no other gods before Me."
Grace pleads, "We...preach unto you that ye should turn from these vanities unto the living God" (Acts 14:15).

"Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image...Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them."
"Little children, keep yourselves from idols" (1 John 5:21).

"Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain."
"But above all things, my brethren, swear not, neither by heaven, neither by the earth, neither by any other oath" (James 5:12).

"Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy."
No such commandment is found in the teachings of grace.

"Honor thy father and thy mother."
"Children, obey your parents in the Lord: for this is right" (Eph. 6:1).

"Thou shalt not kill."
"Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him" (1 John 3:15).

"Thou shalt not commit adultery."
"Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers...shall inherit the kingdom of God" (1 Cor. 6:9-10).

"Thou shalt not steal."
"Steal no more" (Eph. 4:28).

"Thou shalt not bear false witness."
"Lie not" (Col. 3:9).

"Thou shalt not covet."
"Covetousness, let it not be once named among you" (Eph. 5:3).

Law demands the individual to perform in order to merit blessing, but grace pleads with the individual to "walk worthy" of the position and blessings they've already attained in Christ Jesus.

In christ,
Tracey

 

[Colossians]

4sight..,

Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
You can't improve on "fulfill".

Yes, law condemns....but we are supposed to live by its precepts as an act of love and not fear.
If you love, then you will not need precepts. If you need precepts, then you do not love.

 

[Colossians]

.

 

[leecappella]

ONE OF MY RESPONSES CAN BE FOUND IN THE QUOTE BOX.

4sight..,

Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
You can't improve on "fulfill".

me: Define 'fulfill' in the greek, please.

Yes, law condemns....but we are supposed to live by its precepts as an act of love and not fear.
If you love, then you will not need precepts. If you need precepts, then you do not love.

me: This sounds good to me. It kind of fits in with if you follow the law of Christ: love God and love neighbor as self, then you will be following the ten commandments. For the sum of the ten commandments is summed up in the law of Christ.

 

[KelsayDL]

I am in need of knowing those who Jesus speaks of when he says; ..." depart from me you who practice lawlessness, I never knew you!"

Now we know these people he speaks to, have cast out demons, healed the sick, and done many other miracles in his name.

Those of you who espouse the flawed theology of the law is gone, please educate me in this matter.

 

[sojeru]

The legalist tells us that we should keep the Ten commandments.

He is living in the past.
God tells us "Ye are not under the law" Rom 6:14.

Accordingly, "..old things have passed away.." 2 Cor 5:17

the lawless ones say that we need not follow the least of the commandments
Yet out of MESSIAH's(who is THE ELOHIM) OWN MOUTH he says:

|18| For, omein, truly I say to you, until Shomayim and haaretz pass away, not one yod, not one tag (ornamental flourish), will pass from the Torah until everything is accomplished.

|19| Therefore, whoever annuls one of the least of
these mitzvot (divine commandments given by
Hashem to Moshe) and so teaches Bnei Adam,
shall be called katon (least) in the Malchut HaShomayim; but whoever practices and
teaches them, this one will be called gadol (great) in the Malchut HaShomayim.

(Matt 5:18-19)

AGAIN:
Therefore, whoever annuls one of the least of these mitzvot (divine commandments given by
Hashem[G-D] to Moshe) and so teaches Bnei Adam(HUMAN BEINGS), shall be called katon (least) in
the Malchut HaShomayim(kingdom of the Heavens);

THE TORAH of Messiah is fairly simple.

SHEMOT/EXODUS 20:1

Then Elohim spoke
all these words,
saying,

Matityah/Matthew 22:37-38

|37| And Rebbe, Melech HaMoshiach gave this teshuva (answer) to the Baal Torah, VAHAVTAH ET ADONAI ELOHECHA BCHOL LEVAVCHA UVCHOL
NAFSHECHA UVCHOL MODECHA (And thou shalt love the L-rd thy G-d with all thy heart and with all thy soul and with all thy might [DEVARIM/Deut 6:5]).

|38| This is the gedolah and rishonah mitzvah.

Shemot/Exodus 20:2-11

|2| I am Hashem Eloheicha,
Who brought thee out of Eretz
Mitzrayim, out of the bais
avadim.
|3| Thou shalt have no
elohim acherim in My
presence.
|4| Thou shalt not make unto
thee any pesel, or any
temunah of any thing that is
in Shomayim above, or that is
in ha'aretz beneath, or that is
in the mayim under ha'aretz.
|5| Thou shalt not
tishtacheveh to them, nor
serve them; for I Hashem
Eloheicha am an El kanna,
visiting the avon Avot upon
the banim unto the third and
fourth generation of them that
hate Me;
|6| But showing chesed unto
thousands of them that love
Me, and are shomer over My
mitzvot.
|7| Thou shalt not take the
Shem Hashem Eloheicha in
vain; for Hashem will not hold
him guiltless that taketh Shmo
in vain.
|8| Remember Yom
HaShabbos, to keep it kadosh.
|9| Sheshet yamim shalt thou
labor, and do all thy work:
|10| But the Yom HaShevi'i is
the Shabbos of Hashem
Eloheicha; in it thou shalt not
do any melachah, thou, nor
thy ben, nor thy bat, thy eved,
nor thy maidservant, nor thy
cattle, nor thy ger that is
within thy gates;
|11| For in sheshet yamim
Hashem made Shomayim and
Ha'Aretz, the yam, and all that
in them is, and rested Yom
HaShevi'i; for this reason
Hashem blessed Yom
HaShabbos, and set it apart
as kadosh.

Matityah/Matthew 22:39-40

|39| And the second mitzvah is like it: VAHAVTAH
LREIACHA KAMOCHA (And thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself, [VAYIKRA/LEV. 19:18]).

|40| On these two mitzvot hang the entire Torah and the Neviim.

Shemot/Exodus 20:12-17

|12| Honor thy av and thy
em; that thy yamim may be
long upon ha'adamah which
Hashem Eloheicha giveth
thee.
|13| Thou shalt not kill.
|14| Thou shalt not commit
adultery.
|15| Thou shalt not steal.
|16| Thou shalt not bear ed
sheker against thy neighbor.
|17| Thou shalt not covet thy
neighbor's bais, thou shalt not
covet thy neighbor's isha, nor
his eved, nor his maidservant,
nor his ox, nor his donkey, nor
anything that is thy neighbor's.

And the "10 commandments is a summary of all 613 commandments from the MOUTH of G-D to Moses.
These are not commandments of men- BUT OF G-D himself.

SO TO LOVE G-D is to do the first 5 PRECEPTS of what is called the 10 which contains every commandment on how to act and deal with G-D.
The other 5 are the Precepts dealing with your neighbors and how to act and deal with them.

the 613 HANG ON THE 10, and the 10 can be divided into 2 commandments which are the greatest.
AND IF ANY OF YOU TEACH ANY HUMAN BEING TO BREAK THE LEAST- SO will you be the least in the kingdom

And remember Ya'Acov/James " I will SHOW YOU MY FAITH through my works". and history claims him to be a forerunner for judaism , a very important figure
http://invisionfree.com/forums/martyrasylum/index.php?showtopic=51

and then remember Messiah again in John 14 "if you love me, you will obey my commandments"
And Paul reffering to the "law of freedom" can EASILY BE SEEN in PSALMS 119:45 which the ONLY TORAH that existed EVER is embraced by David.
THE BIBLE is ONE and cannot be divided.

NOTICE ALSO THE NEW COVENANT!
READ JEREMIAH 31:31-34

|31(30)| Hinei, the days come,
saith Hashem, that I will cut a
Brit Chadasha(new covenant) with Bais
Yisroel(house of Yisrael), and with Bais
Yehudah(house of Y'Huda/Judah);
|32(31)| Not according to the
Brit(covenant) that I cut with their Avot(fathers)
in the day that I took hold of
their yad(hand) to take them out of
Eretz Mitzrayim(land of Egypt); which My
Brit(covenant) they broke, although I was
Ba'al (Husband) to them, saith
Hashem;
|33(32)| But this shall be the
Brit that I will cut with Bais
Yisroel [T.N. OJBC is Jewish];
After those days, saith
Hashem, I will set My Torah
in them inwardly, and I will
write ketuvim on their hearts;
and I will be their Elohim,
and they shall be My People.
|34(33)| And they shall teach
no more every ish(man) his re'a
(neighbor), and every ish(man) his
brother, saying, Know
Hashem; for they shall all
have da'as(knowledge) of Me, from the
katon of them unto the gadol(great)
of them, saith Hashem; for I
will forgive their avon(sin), and I
will remember their chattat(errors) no
more.

NOTICE AGAIN- this is the NEW COVENANT-
But this shall be the Brit/COVENANT that I will cut with Bais Yisroel [T.N. OJBC is Jewish]; After those days, saith Hashem, I WILL SET MY TORAH IN THEM INWARDLY, and I will write ketuvim on their hearts; and I will be their Elohim, and they shall be My People.

WHERE DOES THE TORAH reside?? in the hearts!
Where does Messiah Jesus reside?? in the Hearts!
Where does the Holy Spirit of G-D reside in a BELIEVER?? in the Hearts!
The Holy SPIRIT himself is the Torah, The Messiah is The TORAH become flesh (the LIVING TORAH/DIRECTION/WORD)
And G-D himself is THAT TORAH that many teach not to keep
MY G-D is my sanctuary, my refuge and His Torah is my freedom and liberty.



shalom u'bracha (peace and blessings)

 

[4sightsounds]

4sight..,

Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
You can't improve on "fulfill".

Yes, law condemns....but we are supposed to live by its precepts as an act of love and not fear.
If you love, then you will not need precepts. If you need precepts, then you do not love.

Let me 1st say that my 1st post was not worded in a manner that actually reflected my thoughts on this topic. We should desire to do what is pleasing to God.

With that in mind, a babe in Christ needs instruction on how to live a life that is pleasing to God...in fact we all need instruction.

Of course we are not under the law. But, do Christians commit murder? Sure they do, and it grieves God. I'm not sure I understand what you're trying to say.

...and the Word of God is full of precepts for instruction in every aspect of Christian life. We're just not condemned by the law....that's all.

 

[Colossians]

Sojeru,

And the "10 commandments is a summary of all 613 commandments from the MOUTH of G-D to Moses.
And they sum up beautifully the law which we are not under. "Ye are not under the law" Rom 6:14.

SO TO LOVE G-D is to do the first 5 PRECEPTS of what is called the 10 which contains every commandment on how to act and deal with G-D.
"and the word of God was unto them precept upon precept, line upon line"

the 613 HANG ON THE 10, and the 10 can be divided into 2 commandments which are the greatest.
Doesn't say that in my bible. Perhaps you have ILV (Inspired Legalist Version). In my bible (a proper bible) it says the 10 hang on the 2. It doesn't say the 2 are divided into the 10 at all.
The 2 are like a coat rail, with the 10 coathangers hanging off them. If the "10 coathangers should accidentally fall, there'll be a big strong coat rail, still standing mighty tall!".
The 2 are independant of the 10. That is why they were given separately. If they were not independant of the 2, they would not have needed to have been given.

AND IF ANY OF YOU TEACH ANY HUMAN BEING TO BREAK THE LEAST- SO will you be the least in the kingdom
This was said pre-cross. Jesus was making sure the Jews who were to crucify Him would be without excuse. He was compounding the OT law upon their heads. Jesus was OT.

and then remember Messiah again in John 14 "if you love me, you will obey my commandments"
"MY commandments", not "THE commandments". He spoke of His personal directives. Read verse 20: it tells you the disciples to whom he spoke did not even know who He was, so there was no way in the world that they would have intepretted his words as "THE TEN commandments". They did not understand He was God.
Jesus came to give a new commandment. Obviously if it was new, then it had never been given before, otherwise He would not have called it "new".
Note in the next chapter (15:10) that Jesus speaks of the commandments from His Father to Himself, and a different set of commandments from Himself to his disciples, thus proving IRREFUTABLY that His commandments were not the TEN.

NOTICE ALSO THE NEW COVENANT!
READ JEREMIAH 31:31-34
This speaks of Christ the person. Not precepts.

|34(33)| And they shall teach
no more every ish(man) his re'a
(neighbor), and every ish(man) his
brother, saying, Know
Hashem; for they shall all
have da'as(knowledge) of Me, from the
katon of them unto the gadol(great)
of them, saith Hashem; for I
will forgive their avon(sin), and I
will remember their chattat(errors) no
more.
So why are trying to teach us? Perhaps it is because what you are teaching is not in accord with Jer 31? For if it were, according to Jer 31, you would not have to teach it.

WHERE DOES THE TORAH reside?? in the hearts! Where does Messiah Jesus reside?? in the Hearts!
Which is what I said: the torah is now Jesus Himself. No longer a precept, but a person.

The Holy SPIRIT himself is the Torah,
He is a person.

 

[Colossians]

4sights,

I appreciate your spirit and I can see that you are not a legalist, so I will not treat you as one in my reply.

Of course we are not under the law. But, do Christians commit murder?
Consider Romans 7:5 "The motions of sin are by the law".
This tells us that the reason we sin is because, to that extent, and in that area of our life, we are under a law which invokes sin. It is a bit like telling your child not to do something - what's the first thing he does? - goes and does it!

The dichotomy of old man and New Man is not well understood in Christianty. The New Man is not under the law. The old man, by virtue of the fact that he is pre New Man, is necessarily under the law ,and proves to be so by sinning, (for again, "The motions of sin are by the law").
So then when Paul expounds the dichotomy in 7:14-25, he points out that it is no longer we who sin, but sin (the old man) in us that sins.

So when it says we are not under the law, this is spoken to the New Man, and in another sense it is also spoken to the whole man (both old and new) so that the old recedes, and the New takes over even more 'territory'. It is God's creative power, creating the New Man.

Scripture is voiced in the declarative, in like manner to God's saying in Genesis: "Light, BE!".
At different stages in your life, when the Holy Spirit purposes to conform you even more to the image of Christ than what you already are, He will effectively speak to you "Ye are not under the law, BE!", and the old man will yet further recede, and play less of a part in your life.
And of course the way He will speak this to you will be through experience of grace, a grace which declares in triumph the crucifixion of both "the hand-writing of ordinances which was contrary to us" (the law), and our very selves, with Christ at Calvary.

As a complementary point, this is why we are told in 1 John 3:9 that "He that is born of God cannot sin". Many modern bible versions (unfortunately foisting their interpretations upon their translations) re-word this as "does not practice sinning", for they reason, "it can't possibly mean "does not sin", for we all sin!!
But 1 John 3:9 is not concerned with the pragmatic, but with state. It actually speaks of the New Man (primarily Christ Himself in us, who is now our identity), and is a word of encouragement to us in that it declares our state to be that of Christ's: righteous before the Father.

The 1 John earlier passage which says "if any man say he is without sin, he is a liar", which many seem to hold in contradiction to 1 John 3:9, is actually not addressing the same party, but is addressing the haughty who would boast of their salvation as though it were something they really didn't need: it is addressing pride. This is not to be confused with the address of 1 John 3:9, which addresses the New Man.

Praise God.

 

[sojeru]

collosians

Doesn't say that in my bible. Perhaps you have ILV (Inspired Legalist Version). In my bible (a proper bible) it says the 10 hang on the 2. It doesn't say the 2 are divided into the 10 at all.
The 2 are like a coat rail, with the 10 coathangers hanging off them. If the "10 coathangers should accidentally fall, there'll be a big strong coat rail, still standing mighty tall!".
The 2 are independant of the 10. That is why they were given separately. If they were not independant of the 2, they would not have needed to have been given.

next time, before you answer. PLEASE READ CORRECTLY!
now go back and read what i stated. because now you are guilty of slander.

 

[sojeru]

its funny, how you didnt fight against the rest of the scripture- However, when it comes down to what Messiah said in John 14 (my commandments) you can quickly twist it into your frame of work.
Well, what about the rest of Messiahs words that would speak directly against your thought.

even better now, lets go back to the Torah in which who Messiah IS.

G-D himself says that the sabbath is to be a covenant FOREVER- and this covenant is on respects toward G-D, not men.
This marks the division of the 10.

the other half GOES TO THE 2nd commandment of Messiah.

So to say that Messiah's TORAH negates the 10 or the 613 is a farce.

look, im not looking to divide, im looking to unite in TRUTH.
I KNOW THAT YOU DO NOT SEE WHAT I UNDERSTAND AS TRUTH.
But I know that it is.

So how can you see this as truth?
Not by me TEACHING IT AS A MASTER to you.
But as Iron sharpens iron.
look, as you fight against me you show yourself to be with flaw aswell- even if you see it or not.

i will leave you to see it.

now, in rhe 10, the shabbat is the ONLY commandment that says FOREVER - why is that?
Well, HaShem is Forever- so as he lives so also be his sabbath.
NOTICE how the direction of the sabbath is given as the 5th- the last one that directs in manner of a man to G-D.
To do the first 5 and to have confidence on sabbath- no doubt you will have to do the first 4, so the sabbath is not a "LAW" as to say it has no grace.
But this commandment is a gift.
Those who were kicked out side of the people of Israel once being israeli had no more a sabbath.
So again, this Commandment is a gift forever.

That is what shabbat is- and since the people then knew this- there was needed no "GRACE" pleading for it.
the commandment is best rephrased this way: "YOU , ISRAEL, WILL TAKE THIS GIFT of REST and YOU WILL KEEP IT FOREVER"


THE HOLY SPIRIT IS THE TORAH- THE HOLY SPIRIT IS THE SPIRIT WORD
TAKE UP YOUR SWORD- and what was the ONLY SWORD existing when Paul said this?
The Tanach (TORAH=prophets and writtings)
what most call the Old Testament

WE WILL LIVE NOT by bread alone but by EVERY WORD THAT PROSEEDS OUT OF THE MOUTH OF G-D.
G-D gave the people, firstly, 10 commandments (not Laws- as a traditions and things of legalism) AND THEN BROKE DOWN EACH one of the 10 into 613.
NOW I AM NOT SAYING THAT A GENTILE/any uncircumcised person NEED TO DO ALL 613- HOWEVER WHAT I AM SAYING IS THAT there is STILL CIRCUMCISION and those that are circumcised, NEED FOLLOW ITS PRECEPTS- because what good is the circumcision if one cannot keep what it requires.
LISTEN, because I love Hashem- I WILL DO WHAT HE SAYS- He is MY ABBA- and I love him greatly.
If you dont want to and wish to remain lawless eating the flesh of pigs and rats in your "secret" place called "jesus"

this is a false secret place, a flase gate, a flase sign
However, the Jesus that is the TORAH is the true gate.
Messiah is the LIVING WORD, is he or not?
either way the truth is- HE IS THE TORAH- the LIVING TORAH, PROPHETS, and WRITTINGS
if you negate this you are a liar.
WHAT DOES THE WRITTINGS GIVE PRAISE TO?
pslams 119 gives praise to only 2- THE G-D who created all and delivered Egypt and then to HIS TORAH, the TORAH THAT HAS HIM WALK FREE
and the prophets give the same acknowledgements to Israel.
"FOLLOW G-D" they cry and "GO BACK TO G-D BY HIS TORAH" they fight.
and the Torah is just that- G-D giving HIS DIRECTION (<---hora'ah- in which this word and TORAH come from the root word horeh which means parent)


the TORAH IS A PARENT (horeh)
and is DIRECTION/the will of HaShem (hora'ah)
and is Moreh (teacher)
we have no other Teacher, rabbi save for Messiah
we have no other path save for the WAY and the Spirit that DIRECTS US
we have no other father save for ABBA

so these are not Torah?
just persons huh?


blessings to you bro
shalom u'bracha
Hashem be with you to understanding and the in truth follow him


so, the

 

[Colossians]

sojeru,

its funny, how you didnt fight against the rest of the scripture
Not as funny as your inability to acknowledge defeat by my rebuttals. You have purposely chosen to not revist them, for you cannot. This is a common tactic on the net, and one which you would not get away with in a public debate.

However, when it comes down to what Messiah said in John 14 (my commandments) you can quickly twist it into your frame of work.
This is one of the points you will not acknowledge defeat on. Tell me that verse 20 does not show us that those to whom Jesus spoke did not assume He was God. Then read John 15:10 and tell me that the commandments from the Father to the Son were the same as those from the Son to the disciples.

G-D himself says that the sabbath is to be a covenant FOREVER- and this covenant is on respects toward G-D, not men.
God broke his covenant with Israel, forever. Zech 11:10, 11.
As a result, God says we are no longer under the law. (Gal 3:25)

I KNOW THAT YOU DO NOT SEE WHAT I UNDERSTAND AS TRUTH.
The truth is not an idea. The truth is a person: Jesus Christ.

now, in rhe 10, the shabbat is the ONLY commandment that says FOREVER - why is that?
The Sabbath was given as a sign of sanctification (Ex 31:13). We now have the Holy Spirit as this sign. The Sabbath is therefore redundant.

THE HOLY SPIRIT IS THE TORAH
1. The Holy Spirit is a person.
2. The Torah is not a person.
Therefore the Holy Spirit is not the Torah.
QED.

G-D gave the people, firstly, 10 commandments (not Laws- as a traditions and things of legalism)
Commandments with penalty are laws.

WHAT I AM SAYING IS THAT there is STILL CIRCUMCISION and those that are circumcised, NEED FOLLOW ITS PRECEPTS
"Circumcision is nothing" 1 Cor 7.
Can't get much lower than "nothing".

because what good is the circumcision if one cannot keep what it requires.
This is why circumcision is nothing.

If you dont want to and wish to remain lawless eating the flesh of pigs and rats in your "secret" place called "jesus"
Read Acts 10 where God told Peter to eat the unclean food.

.. the Jesus that is the TORAH is the true gate.
The Jesus that is Jesus is the true gate.


Now why are you still trying to teach every man in direct contradiction to your previous quote from Jer 31:34?
Here it is again: "They shall not teach every man his neighbour..saying know the Lord"

 

[GodOwnsMe]

Yeah, that's what I've been wondering about..............I mean Jesus said what 4sightsounds quoted, and what KelsayIl (sp ? ) posted, soo I mean.......... ????
I mean there's all these verses in which Jesus says something like if we love Him we'll keep God's commandments, and.....................yeah He might not "know" us even when we've casted out demons in His name....................
I don't know there is also this verse that says the road to heaven is narrow, which makes me also wonder if we're just saved by believing...................
plus what's in James..........like faith without works is dead........................................there are also these verses saying who believes will be saved.......... I don't know I'm still asking God about this but what it *seems* like to me is not:
k, I believe in Jesus, live my life like I want but everything's fine.
More that it is also about repenting, giving your life to God and giving up the stuff He doesn't want for Him and love Him, obey Him.

 

[sojeru]

am I a teacher?
am I a rabbi?

I cannot TEACH
However, as the apostles did to the leaders i can also SHOW YOU MY LIGHT.

I guess since you are teaching me, you also fail in light of scripture- oops, you dont adhere to the precepts in the bible.

look- when it comes to debates- and a persons heart is truely set on- I want to know how to truely follow G-D- I will share it and shed light on how to better follow G-D- because i know that i am doing it.

What i see is that you are an expert in debate and know how to twist words and the intention of the opposing view.

THIS IS TRUE ABOUT THE WORD:
NO ONE IS SAVED BY WORKS!
Do i teach that people are to merit salvation by works? no, i do not- yet, im sure that this is how you wish to view me since i stand for Torah- G-D's word never done away with.

I'll give you this concept as you try to twist G-D's word.

If G-D at one point says "you are to do all of these things FOREVER ( a literal forever) beyond the universe." and then
"do not do anymore what i have told you- now do these things forever."

that would mean he uses "forever" very very losely- as losely as people today use "love"

I ask you to explain away matthew 5:17-20, yet you havent done so.
I'll bring up other scriptures (oops, other pieces of Jesus since "the word" is not a thing He's a person)

1. The Holy Spirit is a person.
The truth is not an idea. The truth is a person: Jesus Christ.

The Holy Spirit is a person- agreed.
The Truth is a person- agreed.
but then you say.

2. The Torah is not a person.
Therefore the Holy Spirit is not the Torah.

BUT DID NOT THE WORD BECOME FLESH-
Oh, its only a metaphore of some sort right?
Isnt the Torah a piece of the Word (Gen-Rev.)?
In the case of 2000 years ago from Gen-Deut- the last book of Tanach[in the christian bible case I'll use malachi] so from Gen-Deut- malachi
Isnt the Torah a piece from the word?
If you say no to this then all will know that you are a liar.
unless they follow right behind you.

So if Torah and the prophets and writtings are the word- and the word became flesh- isnt the word a person and remains so to this day?
[oops, im teaching]
I am no teacher, because you are no student of mine.
And it seems that you are making yourself to be a twig and not iron so how can you sharpen?

take into what is said in consideration.
For you have not supplied a well ground for yourself. (yet, knowing where you are now- you will twist all that i have said into something else)

Just know- anyone who teaches that works must be done to merit salvation/grace and etc is a liar
may that person be accursed by G-D all the days he breathes.
No, the truth is this- By the grace of G-D to us, He has given us the freedom (i.e. broken the shackles of enslavement to SIN[romans]) to follow his Torah freely and perfectly[romans] in His face by the doings of Messiah in out hearts by the Holy Spirit.
The Torah has no place to CONDEMN me now(romans)- because i have already died- now it is messiah who lives. (galatians) And Messiah follows the Torah perfectly in me using my body to show His light.
The commandments is a lamp to light the path.(proverbs)
Your word is a lamp unto my feet (psalms)

If you knew who messiah was- you would know that he is the Torah.
And the Torah, not a person?

then i guess Paul was wrong to allegorize the Torah into a person commonly called in kjv "schoolmaster"
last time i checked i knew that the schoolmaster was a person.
"The Torah, a person, leading us to Christ."

and this you wont understand because you see them as seperate.
I say to you- if you have enough wisdom to see that G-D is three when he never said he was- have the wisdom to see that Messiah- is the word- the word is the Torah and the Torah is a person
and so is the SPIRIT of G-D.
And so is G-D himself.
not three persons, but ONE and manifestating as three all at the same time.

shalom u'bracha

 

[sojeru]

Hi GodOwnsMe

TRUE BELIEVERS are saved by believing-
Truth is, all are saved JUST by believing.

this is the deal- it is not- "once saved always saved"
Messiah, did say that he would rip out of his bossom the person that does not produce good fruit. (by way of the aramaic)
This would mean- "if you are my seed then you will indeed act like my seed- doing what i did- and following in my order."

in the literal greek translation- mat 5:17-18
You will find
"I did not come to abolish but TO DO THEM [the torah]"
The Torah is a prophecy of continued fulfillment.
It LOOKS for people who will stand by it.
learn what Messiah ACTUALLY SAID in matt5:17-20

there is much to learn there.

But im hoping that you reading bible is sufficient enough- and it obviously has been.
Sionce you see the things that arise as more torah based.
you will find many other things aswell.

I say, read the ENTIRE bible and take it all in- and then you will see how one the "old testament" is according WITH "the new"

shalom u'bracha

 

[Andrew]

If you are still trying to be justified by the Law, then you have fallen from grace and made Jesus of no effect to you. IOW, you are still under law and are under the curse.

this is the deal- it is not- "once saved always saved"

If that is true then none of us here are really saved. and none of us will know until we fall asleep (die).

 

[sojeru]

If you are still trying to be justified by the Law, then you have fallen from grace and made Jesus of no effect to you. IOW, you are still under law and are under the curse.

you obviously had not read my posts well.
go back and read.

shalom u'bracha

 

[Achichem]

4sight..,

Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
You can't improve on "fulfill".

Yes, law condemns....but we are supposed to live by its precepts as an act of love and not fear.
If you love, then you will not need precepts. If you need precepts, then you do not love.

Colossian,

And if you do not use Gods precepts and morals then whos do you use?
I afraid if you then take from the wisdom of this world and not of the wisdom of God, then quite simply you are not being lead by faith, because without trust and love there can be no faith.

Did Jesus warned us of this Christianity that was lawless?

Matthew 24:11-12, NKJV:
Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold.

Matthew 7:22-23, KJV:
Many will say to Me in that day, "Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?' And then I will declare to them, "I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'

By this, I am not saying that law is required for salvation, only faith cannot live with out as 4sight. Said the precepts of the law.

Please read letters as letters:

Romans 3:31, NKJV:
Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law.

Romans 2:13, NKJV:
(for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified;

1 Corinthians 7:19, NKJV:
Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing, but keeping the commandments of God is what matters.

Once again I am only pointing out that the law is not useless, it has a purpose, its purpose I leave up to you to find!

God bless,
Datsar