Not keeping (sunday) sabbath

[eleos1954]

Hello all you saints,

I have been away for a while, and i am back with a quandary.

I am currently employed as a care worker, and this means that i am almost always working on a Sunday.

I have been doing this job for around one year now, and have never had any conscionable objections to working on a Sunday and not attending church as i beleived that i could choose a day in the week as a sabbath (where i did not go to church, though). I also have been able to attend a church service on a Wednesday often.

However, i came across this verse:

“There are six days when you may work, but the seventh day is a day of sabbath rest, a day of sacred assembly. You are not to do any work; wherever you live, it is a sabbath to the LORD.”

Leviticus 23:3.

So i am now wondering if i have been sinning all this time, and if i need to change my work situation so that i can live in accordance with this verse.

I am in the process of starting a Sunday evening service at my church and my employers have agreed to give me every Sunday evening off; however, i would be working every Sunday morning, therefore disqualifying it as a sabbath day for me.

Do you think it would be okay to switch my sabbath day to a Wednesday (where i would attend the weekday service at my church), and i would inform my employers that i cannot work Wednesdays.

Or do you think that it needs to be the same day that the majority of the church gather together?

P.s. i am aware that the jewish sabbath day was not Sunday- but an interesting point as to why it has been changed, and if God is okay with this and if so why.

Thanks a lot,

The 7th day Sabbath is NOT the "jewish sabbath" .... it's from creation .... God created it for ALL mankind BEFORE there were any jews and before Israel.

One can not change the day God created.

He didn't change it.

This is why you and many others find themselves in a quandary (confused).

The 7th day Sabbath is God's seal of authority (Lord of the Sabbath) without establishing authority any commandment is meaningless.

I pray all will understand this.

 

[BobRyan]

@BobRyan If i understand you right, that the unit of ten is the keeping of the ten commandments post ressurection, then i do agree with this.

Eph 6:2 has Paul saying this to NT saints "'Honor your father and mother' (Exodus 20:12) -- which is the first commandment with a promise" - Now Paul could just have left it with "Children obey your parents... I am an Apostle I have this word from God" - but instead Paul appeals to the still-authoritative commandments of God as still being a unit - where the first commandment with a promise is Ex 20:12 in the TEN. So while that is true within the TEN - it is not true that in the book of Exodus 20:12 is the first commandment with a promise. So Paul is making a specific reference to the Ten

Romans 7 Paul says the Law of God contains the Ex 20 commandment "do not covet" - this is the 10th commandment.

In Rom 3:31 "do we then make void the Law of God by our faith? God forbid! in fact we establish the Law of God"

I did find an artcile which stated that: Romans 14:5-6; Galatians 4:9-11; and Colossians 2:16-17, are the most common scripture quoted to justify not keeping sabbath’s.

That is very true.

1. Romans 14 does not mention the weekly Sabbath at all. But it says that of the Bible approved Holy Days (listed in Lev 23) one man observes one above the others - while another man observes them all. Those were the annual feast days that could be kept Holy .

Notice that in Galatians 4 Paul says that observing even one pagan day as a holy day is to be condemned -- so he is not speaking in Rom 14 of keeping every days as a holy day to God.

(Also Paul condemns the idea of a person that has no work days - that never works)

This is why both the Sabbath keeping and the Sunday keeping groups in my list I gave earlier reject Rom 14 as a text that deletes one of God's commandments among the TEN,

================================
2. Gal 4 - condemns the keeping of even one pagan holy day. (Rom 14 defends the keeping of any one of those Bible approved Lev 23 holy days)

8 However at that time, when you did not know God, you were slaves to those which by nature are not gods.​

(these are former pagans that have become Christian)​

​

9 But now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how is it that you turn back again to the weak and worthless elementary principles, to which you want to be enslaved all over again?​

(the newly converted Christians were adopting a syncretism with their former Pagan holy day veneration. Paul is not condemning scripture as being like their former paganism - Paul is condemning syncretism that joins paganism with Christianity)​

​

​

10 You meticulously observe days and months and seasons and years. 11 I fear for you, that perhaps I have labored over you in vain.​

(What a contrast to Rom 14 where anyone of the Lev 23 Holy days is allowable and no one may be condemned for choosing one or for choosing all of the annual Bible holy days of Lev 23)​

============================================

Col 2:16-17 -- condemns the idea of "making stuff up" and then judging others based on things that are made up. It is not condemning the Bible. (Matt 7 also condemns the idea of judging others - even before the cross - that was wrong. So it is not a "change")

4 I say this so that no one will deceive you with persuasive arguments.​

​

Col 2:8 See to it that there is no one who takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception in accordance with human tradition, in accordance with the elementary principles of the world, rather than in accordance with Christ.​

Scripture is not "philosophy and empty deception" nor is it "human tradition" (all these things those sites pointing to Col 2 -- will avoid)

Col 2:13 And when you were dead in your wrongdoings and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our wrongdoings, 14 having canceled the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.​

​

On the cross Christ paid our debt of sin ... like paying the speeding ticket fine. He did not "delete" the command that says "do not take God's name in vain" Ex 20:7. Rather He paid our debt that is owed for doing such a thing.

In the NT "SIN IS transgression of the Law" 1 John 3:4 and "what matters is keeping the Commandments of God" 1 Cor 7:19

​

Col 2:16 Therefore, no one is to act as your judge in regard to food and drink, or in respect to a festival or a new moon, or a Sabbath day— 17 things which are only a shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ.​

In Lev 23 we have a list of the annual Sabbath days - the feast days. The "Shadow Sabbaths" that point to Christ as the Lamb of God slain for sin. As 1 Cor 5 says "Christ our PASSOVER has been slain". In any case the same Matt 7 "Judge not that you be not judged" rule applies not only before the Cross -- in Matt 7 but also AFTER the cross as we see in Col 2.

18 Take care that no one keeps defrauding you of your prize by delighting in humility and the worship of the angels, taking his stand on visions he has seen, inflated without cause by his fleshly mind,​

​

Paul says that the problem is not scripture - it is people 'making stuff up'. And gives examples , he also gives the source

19 and not holding firmly to the head, from whom the entire body, being supplied and held together by the joints and ligaments, grows with a growth which is from God.​

20 If you have died with Christ to the elementary principles of the world, why, as if you were living in the world, do you submit yourself to decrees, such as, 21 “Do not handle, do not taste, do not touch!” 22 (which all refer to things destined to perish with use)—in accordance with the commandments and teachings of man? 23 These are matters which do have the appearance of wisdom in self-made religion and humility and severe treatment of the body, but are of no value against fleshly indulgence.​

Paul keeps pointing to rules and judgments that are coming from man-made tradition -- coming from inflated imagination. He never says that scripture is the thing that needs to be deleted to fix something in Col 2.

This is the part of Col 2 those other sites simply do not touch because they need a small "snip" taken out of context to make their point.

I did have a quick look through them and found that the only one that has any weight for that argument is Colossians 2: 16-17 (though i have not come to any frim conclusions on it yet).

Good on you. The questions you are asking are the right ones. God is leading you.

I agree that it woulod absolve me of guilt over working on Sunday, but it would convict me that, when i thought i had been keeping sabbath on other days, i had in fact not.

I have more good news for you.

Jesus said "if you were blind you would have no sin" -- John 9:31
James 4:17 "to him that knows the right thing to do and does it not - to him it is sin"

Do you attend chruch on the Friday/Saturday sabbath? i know that here (in the UK) that would be difficult as i beleive most (if not all) churches aorund me meet for their main service on Sundays.

Yes I do and there are Sabbath keeping churches in the UK -- I am Seventh-day Adventist (SDA) and they are in the UK. (There is also an Adventist subforum here on ChristianForums)

But there are other Bible Sabbath keeping denominations there as well.

Regarding Mark 7:6-13; i think it is common practice in the church to justify worldly traditions in the church and disregard Gods word (usually under the guise of it being 'loving').

Good point. Mark 7 shows Christ's high regard for what He calls "The commandments of God" and how he contrasts that to "traditions of men" when those traditions conflict with scripture.

However, i am certainly not perfect and we learn as we go, the important thing is to conform yourself to Gods word, when you discover that you are not in line with it (rather than conforming the word of God to your own behaviour in order to justify it).

Amen brother!

It is interesting however, that christians have been 'keeping' the sabbath day on a Sunday for such a long period of time, and it doesnt seem to be a topic that i hear come up in discussion ever.

IN Acts 18:4 we see that "every Sabbath" Paul was preaching to both gentiles and Jews -- even believing ones who continued to attend each Sabbath.

In Acts 14 Gentiles who hear the Gospel from Paul on the Sabbath day - ask for "more gospel preaching" to be given to them "the NEXT Sabbath"

Every single time that the Sabbath is mentioned in the NT as referencing the weekly Sabbath - it is always the 7th day Sabbath -- without exception.

Not one text says some other day of the week "is the new Sabbath" or "is the Christian Sabbath" in all of scripture.

There is an entire subforum on ChristianForums dedicated to nothing but - that one topic in every thread. It is called "Sabbath and the Law" and people post there on both sides of the topic.

Sabbath and The Law

Sabbath day worship and keeping the law

www.christianforums.com

 

[BobRyan]

There are a lot of books on this -- but here is an interesting argument made in the Catholic document "The Faith Explained" - a Commentary on the Baltimore Catechism - after Vatican II. Notice what it says regarding this subject. ...

================== short version

from "The Faith Explained"

Amazon describes "The Faith Explained" this way.

Amazon ad for "The Faith Explained"
The Faith Explained is an all-in-one handbook to help you understand, explain, and defend the great truths of the Catholic Faith. In brief and readable chapters, it explains the purpose of human existence, God and His perfections, the creation and fall of man, the Incarnation, the Redemption, the sacraments, sacramentals, prayer, the importance of the Bible, and much more. Perfect for RCIA classes, this book is also a magnificent refresher course on the Faith for Catholics and an illuminating resource for non-Catholics with questions about the Church.

“The Faith Explained: by Leo Trese -- The Catholic commentary on the Baltimore catechism post Vatican II

This RC document explains that keeping Sunday is in obedience to the Sabbath commandment. Catholics attend "in obedience to the third commandment of God 'remember thou keep holy the Lord's day'" ((from "The Faith Explained" pg 241.))

( "The Faith Explained" - page 242-243.)
"we know that in the Old Testament it was the seventh day of the week - the Sabbath day - which was observed as the Lord’s Day. That was the law as God gave it...'remember to keep holy the Sabbath day..the early Christian church determined as the Lord’s Day the first day of the week. That the church had the right to make such a law is evident...the reason for changing the Lord’s Day from Saturday to Sunday lies in the fact that to the Christian church the first day of the week had been made double holy...nothing is said in the bible about the change of the Lord’s Day from Saturday to Sunday..that is why we find so illogical the attitude of many non-catholic who say they will believe nothing unless they can find it in the bible and yet will continue to keep Sunday as the Lord’s Day on the say-so of the catholic church.

=============================

I will post the "long version" without all the ellipses if someone wants to see it.

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

God has given instructions to Israel for their own good for how to live blessed lives, ........
and so forth, so even if they were't intended for everyone, we should want to voluntarily accept them.

There were many instructions that no longer have meaning. The core is love, mercy and justice as Jesus taught. To appropriate all the other aspects of Jewish culture is a free choice but not one that God demands.

 

[Freth]

Freth, thank you for the message.

You ( and everyone else) has/have given me a lot to consider- I will have to log off of CF now as my mind is spinning.

Excellent point using Matthew 24:20-21; and also using Hebrews to give more clarification as to Pauls point in Colossians.

For clarification: to what do you mean/ think the scripture means when it uses the word ordinances? Do you think it means laws God set down that arent the ten commandments, or the ordinances that man added to the law?

You, being convinced that the sabbath is to be kept Friday/Saturday; what are your thoughts on the fact that most churches come together to worship on Sundays?

The word for ordinances found in Colossians 2:14 is "dogma", which is defined in Strong's G1378 as, "doctrine, decree, ordinance." This commentary explains it in simple, easy to understand language.

Two Laws: Moral and Ceremonial

Many try to blend these two systems, using the texts that speak of the ceremonial law to prove that the moral law has been abolished, but this is a perversion of the Scriptures. The ceremonial system was made up of symbols pointing to Christ, to His sacrifice and priesthood. This ritual law with its sacrifices and ordinances was to be performed by the Hebrews until type met antitype in the death of Christ. Then all the sacrificial offerings were to cease. It is this law that Christ “took ... out of the way, nailing it to His cross.” Colossians 2:14.

But concerning the law of Ten Commandments the psalmist declares, “Forever, O Lord, Thy word is settled in heaven.” Psalm 119:89. And Christ Himself says, “Think not that I am come to destroy the law... . Verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.” Matthew 5:17, 18. Here He teaches that the claims of God’s law should hold as long as the heavens and the earth remain.

Concerning the law proclaimed from Sinai, Nehemiah says, “Thou camest down also upon Mount Sinai, and spakest with them from heaven, and gavest them right judgments, and true laws, good statutes and commandments.” Nehemiah 9:13. And Paul, “the apostle to the Gentiles,” declares, “the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.” Romans 7:12.

While the Saviour’s death brought to an end the law of types and shadows, it did not detract from the obligation of the moral law. The very fact that it was necessary for Christ to die in order to atone for the transgression of that law, proves it to be immutable.

-Ellen White, From Eternity Past (a condensed version of Patriarchs and Prophets)

Regarding your question, "You, being convinced that the sabbath is to be kept Friday/Saturday; what are your thoughts on the fact that most churches come together to worship on Sundays?"...

I think Sabbath is furthest from the minds of most Sunday keeping churches, because of various doctrinal differences. Sabbath isn't kept, not even on Sunday. How many Christians do you know that go out to eat breakfast before church, go out to eat lunch after church, or go home and watch TV after church? (contrary to Sabbath observance; do not buy or sell per Nehemiah 10:31, keep it holy per Exodus 20:8-11 and Isaiah 58:13-14).

Why is this the case?

• Some believe that Jesus is now our rest, but Jesus said the Sabbath is made for man, not just the Jews, in Mark 2:27-28. Hebrews 4 tells us that there remains a rest for man, and even references the Sabbath and creation observance by God in Genesis 2:1-3; which again points to a time before there was a Jew. The Sabbath was God's plan before sin, which predates any possible exclusivity to a certain people.
• Some believe that there are now only two great commandments, spoken of in Matthew 22:36-40, which is love God and love others, but Jesus hung the law and the prophets on those two commandments, and He was quoting Old Testament scripture. which is the law and the prophets. Love God: Deuteronomy 6:5, love others: Leviticus 19:18.
• Some believe that only nine of the Ten Commandments are binding, and somehow the Sabbath commandment is no longer binding, but Jesus gave a clear message in Revelation 14:12, that the saints keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.
• Some freely admit that the Sabbath day was changed to Sunday to memorialize the day that Jesus rose, but they miss the fact that Jesus observed the Sabbath even in death, passing away Friday before Sabbath and rising Sunday morning after Sabbath.

Sunday is considered the day of worship for many Christians, but it is not observed as scripture tells us to observe the Sabbath day. Why? Because Sunday isn't the Sabbath, and many Christian denominations acknowledge this as fact. They don't observe the Sabbath, because they don't consider it to be binding, even though God said to remember it, because He knew we would forget.

There is no commandment in scripture to observe Sunday as a Sabbath or even as a day of worship, yet most Christians do. Where does that leave Sunday if it's not the Sabbath and it was not commanded by God as a day of worship—to be remembered, to be kept holy? (That's a question for you to answer for yourself.)

Does this mean that Sunday is a tradition (of men, not commanded by God)? If so then it falls under what Jesus said in Matthew 15.

Matthew 15:3 But he [Jesus] answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?

Matthew 15:9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

Matthew 15:14 Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.

Read the Bible and come to your own conclusions.

 

[ralliann]

Eph 6:2 has Paul saying this to NT saints "'Honor your father and mother' (Exodus 20:12) -- which is the first commandment with a promise" - Now Paul could just have left it with "Children obey your parents... I am an Apostle I have this word from God" - but instead Paul appeals to the still-authoritative commandments of God as still being a unit - where the first commandment with a promise is Ex 20:12 in the TEN. So while that is true within the TEN - it is not true that in the book of Exodus 20:12 is the first commandment with a promise. So Paul is making a specific reference to the Ten

Romans 7 Paul says the Law of God contains the Ex 20 commandment "do not covet" - this is the 10th commandment.

In Rom 3:31 "do we then make void the Law of God by our faith? God forbid! in fact we establish the Law of God"



That is very true.

1. Romans 14 does not mention the weekly Sabbath at all. But it says that of the Bible approved Holy Days (listed in Lev 23) one man observes one above the others - while another man observes them all. Those were the annual feast days that could be kept Holy .

Notice that in Galatians 4 Paul says that observing even one pagan day as a holy day is to be condemned -- so he is not speaking in Rom 14 of keeping every days as a holy day to God.

(Also Paul condemns the idea of a person that has no work days - that never works)

This is why both the Sabbath keeping and the Sunday keeping groups in my list I gave earlier reject Rom 14 as a text that deletes one of God's commandments among the TEN,

================================
2. Gal 4 - condemns the keeping of even one pagan holy day. (Rom 14 defends the keeping of any one of those Bible approved Lev 23 holy days)

8 However at that time, when you did not know God, you were slaves to those which by nature are not gods.​

(these are former pagans that have become Christian)​

​

9 But now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how is it that you turn back again to the weak and worthless elementary principles, to which you want to be enslaved all over again?​

(the newly converted Christians were adopting a syncretism with their former Pagan holy day veneration. Paul is not condemning scripture as being like their former paganism - Paul is condemning syncretism that joins paganism with Christianity)​

Galatians is about the problem of Judaization.
As for worldly and weakness see the book of Hebrews.
Heb 9:1 Then verily the first covenant had also ordinances of divine service, and a worldly sanctuary.

Heb 7:16 Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life.
17 For he testifieth, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.
18 For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.

 

[BobRyan]

Galatians is about the problem of Judaization.

Parts of it are -- But Gal 4 clearly gets to the syncretism starting up among former pagans who had turned to be Christian and never "used to be Jews" at all.

IN Heb 11 we have the Jewish 'giants of faith' held up as examples to all NT saints.

But in Gal 4:8-11 we have paganism condemned.
8 However at that time, when you did not know God, you were slaves to those which by nature are not gods. 9 But now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how is it that you turn back again to the weak and worthless elementary principles, to which you want to be enslaved all over again? 10 You meticulously observe days and months and seasons and years. 11 I fear for you, that perhaps I have labored over you in vain.

Returning to former pagan practices is clearly condemned in Gal 4.

Expansion on that is seen in 1 Cor 8 where former Jews turned Christian, are compared to former Pagans turned Christian:

1 Cor 8:
4 Therefore, concerning the eating of food sacrificed to idols, we (Jews) know that an idol is nothing at all in the world, and that there is no God but one. 5 For even if there are so-called gods whether in heaven or on earth, as indeed there are many gods and many lords, 6 yet for us there is only one God, the Father, from whom are all things, and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him.

7 However, not all people have this knowledge; (pagans) but some, being accustomed to the idol until now (former pagans turned Christian), eat food as if it were sacrificed to an idol; and their conscience, being weak, is defiled. 8 Now food will not bring us close to God; we are neither the worse if we do not eat, nor the better if we do eat. 9 But take care that this freedom of yours does not somehow become a stumbling block to the weak. 10 For if someone sees you, the one who has knowledge, dining in an idol’s temple, will his conscience, if he is weak, not be strengthened to eat things sacrificed to idols? 11 For through your knowledge the one who is weak is ruined, the brother or sister for whose sake Christ died. 12 And so, by sinning against the brothers and sisters and wounding their conscience when it is weak, you sin against Christ. 13 Therefore, if food causes my brother to sin, I will never eat meat again, so that I will not cause my brother to sin.

 

[ozso]

Hello all you saints,

I have been away for a while, and i am back with a quandary.

I am currently employed as a care worker, and this means that i am almost always working on a Sunday.

I have been doing this job for around one year now, and have never had any conscionable objections to working on a Sunday and not attending church as i beleived that i could choose a day in the week as a sabbath (where i did not go to church, though). I also have been able to attend a church service on a Wednesday often.

However, i came across this verse:

“There are six days when you may work, but the seventh day is a day of sabbath rest, a day of sacred assembly. You are not to do any work; wherever you live, it is a sabbath to the LORD.”

Leviticus 23:3.

So i am now wondering if i have been sinning all this time, and if i need to change my work situation so that i can live in accordance with this verse.

I am in the process of starting a Sunday evening service at my church and my employers have agreed to give me every Sunday evening off; however, i would be working every Sunday morning, therefore disqualifying it as a sabbath day for me.

Do you think it would be okay to switch my sabbath day to a Wednesday (where i would attend the weekday service at my church), and i would inform my employers that i cannot work Wednesdays.

Or do you think that it needs to be the same day that the majority of the church gather together?

P.s. i am aware that the jewish sabbath day was not Sunday- but an interesting point as to why it has been changed, and if God is okay with this and if so why.

Thanks a lot,

James.

I'm in the same situation. I attend church on Wednesday because on my work schedule Sunday is my biggest workday with an extra long shift.

The Shabbat takes place from sundown Friday to sundown Saturday. Going to church on Sunday is not Sabbath keeping any more or less than going to church on Wednesday. Plus the sabbath and sacred assembly mentioned is Leviticus is not talking about going to a Christian church to worship Jesus.

That's a standard majority orthodox Christian view. You can go with that and other such orthodox views... or you can adopt an unorthodox minority later day view and became a sabbitarian like Seventh Day Adventists and Messianics.

 

[ralliann]

Parts of it are -- But Gal 4 clearly gets to the syncretism starting up among former pagans who had turned to be Christian and never "used to be Jews" at all.

IN Heb 11 we have the Jewish 'giants of faith' held up as examples to all NT saints.

But in Gal 4:8-11 we have paganism condemned.
8 However at that time, when you did not know God, you were slaves to those which by nature are not gods. 9 But now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how is it that you turn back again to the weak and worthless elementary principles, to which you want to be enslaved all over again? 10 You meticulously observe days and months and seasons and years. 11 I fear for you, that perhaps I have labored over you in vain.

It says " but now that you know God, how you turn back to weak and worthless elementary principals".
This is speaking of Jew's under the law here....
Servants
1 Now I say, That the heir, as long as he is a child, differeth nothing from a servant, though he be lord of all;
2 But is under tutors and governors until the time appointed of the father.
3 Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world:

Returning to former pagan practices is clearly condemned in Gal 4.

Expansion on that is seen in 1 Cor 8 where former Jews turned Christian, are compared to former Pagans turned Christian:

No, it is not pagan practices they are being enslaved in. The judaizers are trying to subject then to Mediators of Temple service, and Rabbinic practice.
It tells you about that right before these statements are made.
Mediators, priests etc. Hebrews tells us clearly the weakness, and infirmity of that priesthood is that THEY DIE, and cannot continue. Because priesthood functions on an earthly worldly level, by CARNAL COMMANDMENTS. Circumcision, Genealogy, etc. These are "BY NATURE" are NO GODS. These Gentiles are being enticed to simply turning to the same elements Jew's were under apart from and before Christ established his priesthood, which is With power of eternal life.
Scripture in calling the Rulers by the law of Moses, were obviously were not called Gods due to their "nature". They die like men.

Ps. 82: 6 ¶ I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.
7 But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes.

Heb 7:22 By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament.
23 And they truly were many priests, because they were not suffered to continue by reason of death:
24 But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood. {an … : or, which passeth not from one to another }
25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

 

[BobRyan]

It says " but now that you know God, how you turn back to weak and worthless elementary principals".

Indeed this is what the former pagans were doing - they were turning back again to their former pagan practices - blending them in with Christianity. It is a very common problem even today. It is called syncretism.

This is speaking of Jew's

No that is not possible since that would be to equate scripture (in this case God's Word in the OT) with paganism

I you go down that road then there is no room at all for the Rom 14 statement that no one is to be condemned at all for choosing to keep Bible approved holy days.

This only works one way when you account for all the details.

No, it is not pagan practices they are being enslaved in.

Pagan practices were viewed as a form of slavery to sin as we see in Romans 6.

The judaizers are trying to subject then to Mediators of Temple service, and Rabbinic practice.
It tells you about that right before these statements are made.

Paul's letters address more than one issue - this can be seen not only in the letter to the Galatians but also the letters to the Corinthians and the Romans.

In Gal 4 -- at the start - we see the problem for all mankind - all mankind is condemned by the moral law of God that defines what sin is --"all have sinned" as we see in Rom 3:19-23 - and all are under the law - condemned until they accept the Gospel.

Rom 3:
9 What then? Are we better than they? Not at all; for we have already charged that both Jews and Greeks are all under sin; 10 as it is written:
“There is no righteous person, not even one;...

19 Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God; 20 because by the works of the Law none of mankind will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes knowledge of sin.
.. 23 All have sinned

The sin problem is for those "under the law" which as Paul points out - "is all the world" it is "every mouth".

Gal 4 starts off addressing that same problem -- the one humanity has.

Now I say that the heir, as long as he is a child, does not differ at all from a slave, though he is master of all, 2 but is under guardians and stewards until the time appointed by the father. 3 Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world. 4 But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the law, 5 to redeem those who were under the law, that we might receive the adoption as sons.

Those "under the Law" in both Gal 4 and Romans 3 - are "both Jews and gentiles" and in fact "all the world" - condemned by the moral law of God as sinners. All in need of the Gospel.

 

[ralliann]

Indeed this is what the former pagans were doing - they were turning back again to their former pagan practices - blending them in with Christianity. It is a very common problem even today. It is called syncretism.

Judization was syncretism spoken of in Galatians. It was a weak and beggerly priesthood with out the strength of eternal life. That is what was spoken of. They were not talking about Pagan priests and such.

No that is not possible since that would be to equate scripture (in this case God's Word in the OT) with paganism

No, not if you read scripture. As well as the verses concerning Jews being under Levitical priests and it's lack. There is no reason to think of pagans to know the new priesthood being eternal is better.

I you go down that road then there is no room at all for the Rom 14 statement that no one is to be condemned at all for choosing to keep Bible approved holy days.

As I have said in many posts now. Passover and unleavened bread were memorials to Gods fulfilling of his covenant with Abraham,. All that occured was because of the covenant made with their fathers 430 years before. Our redemption in Christ is ALSO A FULFILLMENT OF THE ABRAHAMIC PROMISES. THERE IS NO CONDEMNATION

This only works one way when you account for all the details.

Pagan practices were viewed as a form of slavery to sin as we see in Romans 6.

Paul's letters address more than one issue - this can be seen not only in the letter to the Galatians but also the letters to the Corinthians and the Romans.

In Gal 4 -- at the start - we see the problem for all mankind - all mankind is condemned by the moral law of God that defines what sin is --"all have sinned" as we see in Rom 3:19-23 - and all are under the law - condemned until they accept the Gospel.

Rom 3:
9 What then? Are we better than they? Not at all; for we have already charged that both Jews and Greeks are all under sin; 10 as it is written:
“There is no righteous person, not even one;...

19 Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God; 20 because by the works of the Law none of mankind will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes knowledge of sin.
.. 23 All have sinned

The sin problem is for those "under the law" which as Paul points out - "is all the world" it is "every mouth".

Gal 4 starts off addressing that same problem -- the one humanity has.

Now I say that the heir, as long as he is a child, does not differ at all from a slave, though he is master of all, 2 but is under guardians and stewards until the time appointed by the father. 3 Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world. 4 But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the law, 5 to redeem those who were under the law, that we might receive the adoption as sons.

Those "under the Law" in both Gal 4 and Romans 3 - are "both Jews and gentiles" and in fact "all the world" - condemned by the moral law of God as sinners. All in need of the Gospel.

The law was weak in that it was based upon CARNAL ELEMENTS. Read Hebrews
The law of a carnal commandment.
Heb 7:16 Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life.

Heb 7:18 For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.

The carnal commands have been disanulled.
Circumcision in the flesh, no more matters
Clean and unclean meat, No more matters
Clean and unclean vessels

were shadows. That does not make those things UNHOLY, UNJUST, NOT GOOD. IT DOES NOT MAKE THEM PAGAN.

 

[Soyeong]

There were many instructions that no longer have meaning. The core is love, mercy and justice as Jesus taught. To appropriate all the other aspects of Jewish culture is a free choice but not one that God demands.

Laws in regard to temple practice that weren't followed after the destruction of the 1st temple were once again followed after the construction of the 2nd temple, so those laws did not cease to exist or cease to have meaning, and what they teach us about how to act in accordance with God's eternal nature did not cease to be true. All of the laws that God has commanded are examples of how to love Him and our neighbor, which is why Jesus said that they all hang on the greatest two. God's law was given to teach how to walk in His ways, not to teach how to live like a Jew.

 

[ralliann]

Laws in regard to temple practice that weren't followed after the destruction of the 1st temple were once again followed after the construction of the 2nd temple, so those laws did not cease to exist

There was no new covenant no change in priesthood

or cease to have meaning, and what they teach us about how to act in accordance with God's eternal nature did not cease to be true. All of the laws that God has commanded are examples of how to love Him and our neighbor, which is why Jesus said that they all hang on the greatest two. God's law was given to teach how to walk in His ways, not to teach how to live like a Jew.

I somewhat agree they were shadows of things to come.

 

[Soyeong]

It says " but now that you know God, how you turn back to weak and worthless elementary principals".
This is speaking of Jew's under the law here....
Servants
1 Now I say, That the heir, as long as he is a child, differeth nothing from a servant, though he be lord of all;
2 But is under tutors and governors until the time appointed of the father.
3 Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world:

In Exodus 33:13, Moses wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him His way that he might know Him and Israel too, and in Matthew 7:23, Jesus said that he would tell those who are workers of lawlessness to depart from him because he never knew them, so the goal of the law is to teach us how to know God and Jesus which eternal life (John 17:3). So those who formerly did not know God could only be referring to former pagans and not to those who were formerly following God's laws for how to know Him.

If God saved the Israelites out of bondage in Egypt in order to put them under bondage to His law, then it would be for bondage that God sets us free, however, Galatias 5:1 says that it is for freedom that God sets us free, which undermines how you are interpreting Galatians 4. In Psalms 119:142, God's law is truth, and in John 8:31-36, it is sin in transgression of God's law that puts us in bondage while it is the truth that sets us free.

No, it is not pagan practices they are being enslaved in. The judaizers are trying to subject then to Mediators of Temple service, and Rabbinic practice.
It tells you about that right before these statements are made.
Mediators, priests etc. Hebrews tells us clearly the weakness, and infirmity of that priesthood is that THEY DIE, and cannot continue. Because priesthood functions on an earthly worldly level, by CARNAL COMMANDMENTS. Circumcision, Genealogy, etc. These are "BY NATURE" are NO GODS. These Gentiles are being enticed to simply turning to the same elements Jew's were under apart from and before Christ established his priesthood, which is With power of eternal life.
Scripture in calling the Rulers by the law of Moses, were obviously were not called Gods due to their "nature". They die like men.

Ps. 82: 6 ¶ I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.
7 But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes.

Heb 7:22 By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament.
23 And they truly were many priests, because they were not suffered to continue by reason of death:
24 But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood. {an … : or, which passeth not from one to another }
25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

In Matthew 4:17-23, Jesus began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand, and God's law is how his audience knew what sin is (Romana 3:20), so repenting from our disobedience to it is an integral part of the Gospel message. Furthermore, Jesus set a sinless example of how to walk in obedience to God's law, and as his followers we are told to follow his example (1 Peter 2:21-22) and that those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way he walked (1 John 2:6). So Jesus spent his ministry teaching his followers how to practice the religion of Judaism in obedience to God's law by word and by example, and Paul's problem with the Judaizers was not that they were teaching Gentiles how to follow Christ.

In Galatians 5:19-21, Paul the carnal works that Paul listed as being against the Spirit are also against God's law, while all of the fruits of the Spirit are in accordance with it, which makes sense because God's law is spiritual (Romans 7:14) and the Spirit has the role of leading us to obey it (Ezekiel 36:26-27), so carnal works are not also those done in obedience to God's law, but rather it is a different sense of the world when referring to an earthly lineage.

 

[ralliann]

In Exodus 33:13, Moses wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him His way that he might know Him and Israel too, and in Matthew 7:23, Jesus said that he would tell those who are workers of lawlessness to depart from him because he never knew them, so the goal of the law is to teach us how to know God and Jesus which eternal life (John 17:3). So those who formerly did not know God could only be referring to former pagans and not to those who were formerly following God's laws for how to know Him.

If God saved the Israelites out of bondage in Egypt in order to put them under bondage to His law, then it would be for bondage that God sets us free, however, Galatias 5:1 says that it is for freedom that God sets us free, which undermines how you are interpreting Galatians 4. In Psalms 119:142, God's law is truth, and in John 8:31-36, it is sin in transgression of God's law that puts us in bondage while it is the truth that sets us free.



In Matthew 4:17-23, Jesus began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand, and God's law is how his audience knew what sin is (Romana 3:20), so repenting from our disobedience to it is an integral part of the Gospel message. Furthermore, Jesus set a sinless example of how to walk in obedience to God's law, and as his followers we are told to follow his example (1 Peter 2:21-22) and that those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way he walked (1 John 2:6). So Jesus spent his ministry teaching his followers how to practice the religion of Judaism in obedience to God's law by word and by example, and Paul's problem with the Judaizers was not that they were teaching Gentiles how to follow Christ.

In Galatians 5:19-21, Paul the carnal works that Paul listed as being against the Spirit are also against God's law, while all of the fruits of the Spirit are in accordance with it, which makes sense because God's law is spiritual (Romans 7:14) and the Spirit has the role of leading us to obey it (Ezekiel 36:26-27), so carnal works are not also those done in obedience to God's law, but rather it is a different sense of the world when referring to an earthly lineage.

The carnal commandements of Moses law as spoken in Hebrews etc. for a shadow. That is distinct from our carnal nature and it's desires, common to all men..

 

[BobRyan]

Judization was syncretism spoken of in Galatians.

nope.

Scripture is never paganism - which is why the NT quotes the OT so often.

Take Eph 6:2 for example - OT Law quoted and affirmed
This also explains why Paul can be preaching the Gospel "Every Sabbath" in the synagogues to both gentiles and Jews (even believing ones).

It was a weak and beggerly

Scripture is never called "weak and beggerly".

If it were then in Rom 14 all the Bible holy days would have been condemned (rather than defended by saying that you are not allowed to judge anyone for choosing "one above the other")

More scripture details please --

Your post illustrates the scripture-condemning endpoint that the turn you are taking in Gal 4 - ends up in.

suggestions are not as convincing as is scripture

 

[Sesame Seed]

Hello all you saints,

I have been away for a while, and i am back with a quandary.

I am currently employed as a care worker, and this means that i am almost always working on a Sunday.

I have been doing this job for around one year now, and have never had any conscionable objections to working on a Sunday and not attending church as i beleived that i could choose a day in the week as a sabbath (where i did not go to church, though). I also have been able to attend a church service on a Wednesday often.

However, i came across this verse:

“There are six days when you may work, but the seventh day is a day of sabbath rest, a day of sacred assembly. You are not to do any work; wherever you live, it is a sabbath to the LORD.”

Leviticus 23:3.

So i am now wondering if i have been sinning all this time, and if i need to change my work situation so that i can live in accordance with this verse.

I am in the process of starting a Sunday evening service at my church and my employers have agreed to give me every Sunday evening off; however, i would be working every Sunday morning, therefore disqualifying it as a sabbath day for me.

Do you think it would be okay to switch my sabbath day to a Wednesday (where i would attend the weekday service at my church), and i would inform my employers that i cannot work Wednesdays.

Or do you think that it needs to be the same day that the majority of the church gather together?

P.s. i am aware that the jewish sabbath day was not Sunday- but an interesting point as to why it has been changed, and if God is okay with this and if so why.

Thanks a lot,

James.

Way I see it says have every 7th day off, it doeent specify a particular day?

 

[tampasteve]

It's interesting; I have kept some sort of Sabbath for the past 6 or 7 years, but not too strictly most of the time. However our Methodist Church just started a series at the start of the year on why we should keep a Sabbath.

I'm not going to wade into the theology of if it is required or a sin not, but I will comment on the fact that at minimum God would like us to keep it. His example should be all we need in order to see that it is good and right for us to take one day to stop, rest, delight, and worship our Lord.

 

[BobRyan]

Way I see it says have every 7th day off, it doeent specify a particular day?

"A seventh day is the Sabbath"?
"Your seventh day is the Sabbath"?
"Pick a day in seven to be your Sabbath"??

I don't see any of those in the Bible, what other book do you have for that?

But "Tomorrow IS the Sabbath" Ex 16 -- is in the Bible
"The seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD" - Ex 20:8-11 is in the Bible

Manna fell on every day of the week except for THE Sabbath for 40 years.
Act 18:4 Paul was preaching the Gospel "every Sabbath" to Jews and gentiles in the Synagogue --

By contrast - Jesus was resurrected on the "first day of the week" and almost all churches today attend services on Sunday's as a reminder of the first day of the week - on which Christ was resurrected.

 

[BobRyan]

It's interesting; I have kept some sort of Sabbath for the past 6 or 7 years, but not too strictly most of the time. However our Methodist Church just started a series at the start of the year on why we should keep a Sabbath.

I'm not going to wade into the theology of if it is required or a sin not, but I will comment on the fact that at minimum God would like us to keep it. His example should be all we need in order to see that it is good and right for us to take one day to stop, rest, delight, and worship our Lord.

hence my signature line --

Almost every Christian denomination on Earth affirms the continued *"unit of TEN" including the Sabbath commandment

[*]The Baptist Confession of Faith section 19
[*]The Westminster Confession of Faith section 19
[*]Voddie Baucham
[*]C.H. Spurgeon
[*]D.L. Moody
[*]Dies Domini by Pope John Paul II
[*]D. James Kennedy
[*]many others as well..