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"Not Biblical" or "Pagan"

Knee V

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I no longer engage those kinds of discussions. If a person is convinced I am a pagan for being Orthodox, then they will likely continue to think so no matter what I say. I will keep my own peace and try to afford them the same opportunity.
 
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Gnarwhal

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I no longer engage those kinds of discussions. If a person is convinced I am a pagan for being Orthodox, then they will likely continue to think so no matter what I say. I will keep my own peace and try to afford them the same opportunity.

That's basically it. There have probably been a grand total of eight changed opinions in the 13+ year history of this forum. Trying to convince someone we're not pagans when they're bullishly convinced of the opposite is just a waste of keystrokes.
 
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~Anastasia~

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Well, I am glad to say that y'all (collectively) pointed me to some more historical sources, and I am MUCH the richer for it. There was a time that Chick tracts were my sole introduction, then I did frantic internet searches to see if it was accurate, and you KNOW I found sites that agreed with them. I was confused on the whole issue for some years. Thankful to have my "holy-days" back AS Holy-days now!
 
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All4Christ

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That's basically it. There have probably been a grand total of eight changed opinions in the 13+ year history of this forum. Trying to convince someone we're not pagans when they're bullishly convinced of the opposite is just a waste of keystrokes.

I must be one of those eight changed opinions then! If you look back at my posts in 2004-2005, you'd see a totally different person. TAW in particular was a big part in helping me find my way. I wouldn't be surprised if I read some arguments along the way that helped convince me to keep searching!
 
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Knee V

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I must be one of those eight changed opinions then! If you look back at my posts in 2004-2005, you'd see a totally different person. TAW in particular was a big part in helping me find my way. I wouldn't be surprised if I read some arguments along the way that helped convince me to keep searching!

TAW was instrumental in me becoming Orthodox as well, but I didn't become Orthodox because someone argued with me effectively. That's more what I was referring to.
 
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~Anastasia~

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TAW was instrumental in me becoming Orthodox as well, but I didn't become Orthodox because someone argued with me effectively. That's more what I was referring to.

Ah, well I will agree with you there. I doubt arguments have ever changed 1/10th of 1% of the people it has been tried on.

Perhaps someone reading the argument as an observer may pick up some information. That's probably the best we can usually hope for.
 
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All4Christ

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TAW was instrumental in me becoming Orthodox as well, but I didn't become Orthodox because someone argued with me effectively. That's more what I was referring to.

Very true. :) I think as a lurker though, it may have helped (as a third party)...so it isn't completely useless!

You're right though; people don't argue with the intent of changing their opinions, and it is rare for effective arguments from the other side to make much of a difference.
 
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thecolorsblend

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One frustrating condition which I expect many of us have been throughly annoyed by is the tendency of some to attack various aspects of the traditional churches as being "unbiblical" or "pagan."
Yes. And it is frustrating.

Regarding scurrlious accusations of unbiblicality, in most cases we present a Biblical basis for whatever is being attacked and are then simply ignored. Thus, the annointing of the sick with oil might be condemend as unbiblical, we quote St. James, and our interlocutor pretends the verse in question does not exist. Or, regarding the Eucharist, we quote from the Gospel of John, only to have the anamnesis from 1 Corinthians thrown in our face in the most infuriating form of eisegesis.
Protestantism has been around long enough now that it has its own mode of biblical interpretation. They can, with some dependence upon their own history, now point to X, Y and Z doctrines as "unbiblical" merely because they don't conform to their own doctrinal understandings. Pointing back to history prior to the 17th century isn't necessarily helpful in those discussions.

Regarding even more scurrilous accusations of paganism, these frequently refer to discredited falsehoods or urban legends surrounding primitive polytheism, or alternately invoke ridiculous arguments involving the existence of some deity or festival in Roman religion which ostensibly they argue is the basis for whatever practices of ours they object to.
In some cases, I want to believe the Protestants have objections based upon good faith.

However, these objections are rarely based upon good evidence. And there's the rub, I guess.

A good example is the Cross of St. Peter. A Protestant will point to that and call it "satanic imagery". And indeed it might be... depending on the context. The Catholic Church (and probably others) used it as a symbol of traditional, utterly orthodox Christianity for centuries before some devil worshipers came along and co-opted it.

This, in fact, is a fairly conventional practice for a lot of pagans. They try their best to assimilate Christian (or other) symbols as their own and centuries later some ignoramus comes along and gets confused over the exact sequence of events. He's an ignoramus of good faith... but an ignoramus nevertheless.

Other examples depend upon the listener's absolute ignorance regarding satanism. Hearing some evangelical pastor call something "pagan" is all the proof some people need, even though none of them have any understanding of pagan and/or satanic practices. To be fair, it's not like I'm an expert on satanism either. But then I'm not the one running around calling everything in the world "pagan", now am I?
 
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Gxg (G²)

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One frustrating condition which I expect many of us have been throughly annoyed by is the tendency of some to attack various aspects of the traditional churches as being "unbiblical" or "pagan."

Regarding scurrlious accusations of unbiblicality, in most cases we present a Biblical basis for whatever is being attacked and are then simply ignored. Thus, the annointing of the sick with oil might be condemend as unbiblical, we quote St. James, and our interlocutor pretends the verse in question does not exist. Or, regarding the Eucharist, we quote from the Gospel of John, only to have the anamnesis from 1 Corinthians thrown in our face in the most infuriating form of eisegesis.

Regarding even more scurrilous accusations of paganism, these frequently refer to discredited falsehoods or urban legends surrounding primitive polytheism, or alternately invoke ridiculous arguments involving the existence of some deity or festival in Roman religion which ostensibly they argue is the basis for whatever practices of ours they object to.

Using their logic, I believe I could, if I were sufficiently demented, definitively prove to such persons, that boundary markers are idolatrous, and the Anglican tradition of beating the bounds, a pagan practice, because the Romans had a God of Boundary Markers named Terminus celebrated on a festival vaguely reminiscent of a Rogation Day known as Terminalia. Then you, my fellow traditional Christians, would hopefully attack me with capsaicin, that I might be stunned back into sanity and realize the madness of such a fallacious mode of thought.
Most people claiming Traditional churches are 'pagan' tend to forget that their founders within the Protestant world were also seen as being 'pagan' as well by others walking from them. This goes for several practices where Luther and others believed the EXACT same things as other traditional circles - and camps forgot this in time. I have come to believe that it's nearly impossible for others to see outside of a deep review of history.
 
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thecolorsblend

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Oh, one other thing, Paul. One reason the whole "That's not biblical" thing grinds my gears is because the overwhelming majority of people who make that claim can't quote, for example, 2 Chronicles 7:4 perfectly from memory; they'd need to consult their Bibles. They can't quote most Sacred Scripture, in fact, from memory. And even if they could, it would likely be an approximation rather than a verbatim quote.

That may seem like an unreasonable request. But is it? They're the ones insisting their scriptural knowledge is second to none, hence their apparent ability to declare such-and-such doctrine "unbiblical". Okay, whatever. But verifying their credentials by picking a verse from the scriptures at random and asking them to recite it word-for-word is typically met with outrage. Why? Am I not allowed to investigate their bona fides before accepting their claims?

If someone offers you a medical opinion, you're within your rights to inquire about their education. If someone offers you legal advice, it's perfectly reasonable to inquire about how they did on the bar. Why, then, is it unacceptable to put these supposed scholars to the test with a simple request of reciting a random passage from the scriptures over which they claim such expertise?

As a Catholic, I don't have this problem. I believe in my Church's authority and that's that. I trust that they're telling me the truth so I don't need to claim (or even in truth possess) special expertise on the scriptures.
 
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Paul Yohannan

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Oh, one other thing, Paul. One reason the whole "That's not biblical" thing grinds my gears is because the overwhelming majority of people who make that claim can't quote, for example, 2 Chronicles 7:4 perfectly from memory; they'd need to consult their Bibles. They can't quote most Sacred Scripture, in fact, from memory. And even if they could, it would likely be an approximation rather than a verbatim quote.

That may seem like an unreasonable request. But is it? They're the ones insisting their scriptural knowledge is second to none, hence their apparent ability to declare such-and-such doctrine "unbiblical". Okay, whatever. But verifying their credentials by picking a verse from the scriptures at random and asking them to recite it word-for-word is typically met with outrage. Why? Am I not allowed to investigate their bona fides before accepting their claims?

If someone offers you a medical opinion, you're within your rights to inquire about their education. If someone offers you legal advice, it's perfectly reasonable to inquire about how they did on the bar. Why, then, is it unacceptable to put these supposed scholars to the test with a simple request of reciting a random passage from the scriptures over which they claim such expertise?

As a Catholic, I don't have this problem. I believe in my Church's authority and that's that. I trust that they're telling me the truth so I don't need to claim (or even in truth possess) special expertise on the scriptures.

This is a very valid point.

Also, many of them claim a remarkable expertise on ancient Paganism which seems epistemologically impossible given the limits of historical evidence.
 
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thecolorsblend

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This is a very valid point.

Also, many of them claim a remarkable expertise on ancient Paganism which seems epistemologically impossible given the limits of historical evidence.
Agreed. The types of paganism which many people subscribe to today may bear similarities to ancient forms of paganism but beginning with the Middle Ages and going forward, most pagan religions became very flexible and adaptable. Indeed, they had very little choice considering that they found themselves farther and farther outside the mainstream. So merely to survive (in a social sense), adherents had to keep their heads down and make their beliefs as outwardly acceptable as possible.

Considering the level of adaptability which different types of paganism have been forced to accept over the millennia, it would be challenging indeed to claim expertise on all forms of neo-paganism with certitude since there isn't a single model from which to choose. But a similar knowledge of ancient paganism, as you say, may well be impossible to modern scholars. We simply don't have the reference materials.

This, incidentally, makes discussing these matters with self-confessed neo-pagans fascinating as they argue points of supposed fact which they cannot possibly be sure of, and which they cannot provide authoritative sources. In a strange way, they're similar to evangelical Christians who stridently subscribe to a particular set of beliefs... which are utterly divorced from their own history. But at least the evangelical has a viable alternative at the ready in traditional Christianity. The pagan has no analog.
 
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dzheremi

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For myself, it is enough to show such people where these things they are decrying actually come from and how they came to be as they are, and if they still insist that whatever it is that they are objecting to is 'pagan', then okay. What can you do?

I know that our fathers such as St. Justin Martyr, St. Basil, and others did not have such a dim view of everything 'pagan' anyway, and they were writing at such a time when there were still actual pagans about, not re-imagining so many centuries after the fact what such people would have done or believed, as some Christians are eager to do now. And similarly there are also men like my beloved father and baptismal saint St. Shenouda the Archimandrite, who is remembered chiefly for his disputations and confrontations with said pagans, who for the first four centuries or so of Egyptian Christianity were still a cohesive religious and social force in that country (we know that they survived the closing of their temples under Emperor Theodosius in the 380s because the last dated example of Demotic, which was used by pagans since the 6th century BC, is from 452 AD). In fact, no less dependable a source in this area than the famous Coptic historian Dr. Aziz S. Atiya made the point in one of his lectures in the 1970s that for the first two centuries or so, Egyptian Christianity was characterized by a kind of admixture of paganism with Christianity, as Christians reinterpreted what had been their own fathers' religious and cultural symbols such as the ankh/crux ansata, baptizing them into the Church as they themselves came into it; indeed, I have a feeling that the Egyptian church itself would be the ultimate "not Biblical" church in the eyes of many of the zealots the OP describes (after all, Copts especially are not shy about embracing their identities as the original Egyptians, which necessarily means embracing the thousands of years during which they were not Christians yet), which only makes it funnier when you realize that the earliest fragments of the Bible in Coptic that we have today date to c. 150 AD -- both well within the period discussed by Dr. Atiya as being characterized by an admixture of paganism and Christianity, and several centuries before the Greek received text had been established as such for the people who would (mostly) become the EO, in the fourth century or so.

So isn't that curious...this Church which had the Bible before almost anyone else is also the most outwardly 'pagan' due to its mode of being because they do not pretend to have been sealed in a bubble of religious ignorance or something. Hmm.

I've never really understood the point of being a pagan-hunting Christian anyway. I know that some other religions, such as Islam, like to pretend that before their guy came around was 'the time of ignorance' (what the Arab Muslims call 'jahiliya'), but Christianity is not like that, or at least is not traditionally like that. And knowing more of where we came from can only help us to better appreciate how we came to be the way we are, right? This way we can see what has been inherited, e.g., from Jewish temple practices, vs. what is derived/modified from the cultural practices of the pre-Christian populations of a particular place, etc. And there's no shame in any of that, since everyone comes from somewhere, and after all we are more interested in where we will end up. It just seems to me like the pagan-hunting types are only a hop, skip, and jump away from seeing Christianity itself as a re-tread or repackaging of paganism, given all the things that they object to in the name of 'purifying' the religion from the reality of its own history, in which case why bother being a Christian at all? They do not trust any church to have made the correct calls regarding what is baptized into church practice and what is not, and hence they cannot ever really be secure that things are 'pure' enough, so they cut themselves off from the historical life of their own faith and end up, ironically, looking at the oldest communities as the worst off in this regard (since they tend to have more of what this type of Christian unthinkingly writes off as 'pagan', without actually knowing why it's there to begin with, or many times even what it is that they're looking at), preferring instead to follow a Christianity that is rootless and dedicated to nothing more than proving itself 'least pagan', rather than 'most Christian' (i.e., most in keeping with what actual history shows that the early Christians did and believed).

It's bizarre, frankly. The phrase "cutting off one's nose to spite one's face" comes to mind here.
 
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