Non-PC Reflections on attending our first Holy Liturgy

[abacabb3]

I'd be interested in comments. A few points in no particular order:

• Reminds me of the Lutheran Church. Not the service itself, the service which was more traditional. Same with the Homily, which cited Chrysostom twice. I am referring to the general attitudes of the priests and laity. We talked about issues such as remarriage and gender roles, and they definitely tended towards the more liberal end. Also, being that fundamentalism is foreign to Orthodoxy, this definitely gave me the impression of a more mainline church compared to PCA Presbyterian or Reformed Baptist congregations. I can easily see Lutherans, Anglicans, and Catholics being at home in Orthodoxy being that all of these tend to be more of a liberal bent.
• Icon veneration seemed totally normal. I have been at masses in RC churches before and when Catholics venerate Mary they almost look like they are lost in outer space. This is why we Protestants see veneration as idolatry...because it really looks like it. What I saw today was completely normal. There was kissing and polite bowing--it all looked completely in place and not what I have seen in Catholic churches. For what it is worth, when my wife and I visited Saint Patrick's Cathedral in NYC, they forbade flash photography of a statue of Mary. Yet, pictures of Jesus Christ, and the other saints there, were fair game. I am surprised Orthodox do not have a more negative view of the RC in this regard. Perhaps, this is the benefit of an icon over a lifelike, vivid statue.
• The Lord's Supper appears "unhygienic." I am not too concerned about it because I look forward to the day I can partake in His body and blood. My wife was a little sceeved out when she found out.
• The church as Saturday Vespers and a Sunday service. No Bible study or anything during the week, at least not on a regular basis. It makes me wonder, what does a Priest do all week? And, how to people get more instruction and guidance? I have been immensely blessed by study and conforming my attitudes to what the Scriptures and Fathers admonish.
• I was a little put off with how they described second and third marriages, simply because they said "there can be 100 different reasons someone can get divorced." Jesus only gives one.
• The Liturgy of Saint Chrysostom packs so much great stuff in.
• The singing of prayers and creeds throws you off, it makes you forget how they go when you are used to speaking them.
• My standing muscles need more working out.
• The church had a coffee hour afterwards, people stayed and hung out which was really nice.

• That's it for now. I hope that we can go to Vespers and just continue immersing ourselves some more.

 

[All4Christ]

I'd be interested in comments. A few points in no particular order:

• Reminds me of the Lutheran Church. Not the service itself, the service which was more traditional. Same with the Homily, which cited Chrysostom twice. I am referring to the general attitudes of the priests and laity. We talked about issues such as remarriage and gender roles, and they definitely tended towards the more liberal end. Also, being that fundamentalism is foreign to Orthodoxy, this definitely gave me the impression of a more mainline church compared to PCA Presbyterian or Reformed Baptist congregations. I can easily see Lutherans, Anglicans, and Catholics being at home in Orthodoxy being that all of these tend to be more of a liberal bent.
• Icon veneration seemed totally normal. I have been at masses in RC churches before and when Catholics venerate Mary they almost look like they are lost in outer space. This is why we Protestants see veneration as idolatry...because it really looks like it. What I saw today was completely normal. There was kissing and polite bowing--it all looked completely in place and not what I have seen in Catholic churches. For what it is worth, when my wife and I visited Saint Patrick's Cathedral in NYC, they forbade flash photography of a statue of Mary. Yet, pictures of Jesus Christ, and the other saints there, were fair game. I am surprised Orthodox do not have a more negative view of the RC in this regard. Perhaps, this is the benefit of an icon over a lifelike, vivid statue.
• The Lord's Supper appears "unhygienic." I am not too concerned about it because I look forward to the day I can partake in His body and blood. My wife was a little sceeved out when she found out.
• The church as Saturday Vespers and a Sunday service. No Bible study or anything during the week, at least not on a regular basis. It makes me wonder, what does a Priest do all week? And, how to people get more instruction and guidance? I have been immensely blessed by study and conforming my attitudes to what the Scriptures and Fathers admonish.
• I was a little put off with how they described second and third marriages, simply because they said "there can be 100 different reasons someone can get divorced." Jesus only gives one.
• The Liturgy of Saint Chrysostom packs so much great stuff in.
• The singing of prayers and creeds throws you off, it makes you forget how they go when you are used to speaking them.
• My standing muscles need more working out.
• The church had a coffee hour afterwards, people stayed and hung out which was really nice.

• That's it for now. I hope that we can go to Vespers and just continue immersing ourselves some more.

In what way were the gender roles and remarriage more liberal? Certainly I haven't seen Orthodoxy being liberal, though I guess it depends on what you mean by liberal

 

[All4Christ]

I almost forgot - welcome to your first liturgy! Glad you were able to come!

 

[ArmyMatt]

The Lord's Supper appears "unhygienic." I am not too concerned about it because I look forward to the day I can partake in His body and blood. My wife was a little sceeved out when she found out.

you shouldn't be. as the Lord's Body and Blood it won't transmit germs. as a deacon I finish the chalice after the Liturgy, and have never gotten sick from it.

The church as Saturday Vespers and a Sunday service. No Bible study or anything during the week, at least not on a regular basis. It makes me wonder, what does a Priest do all week? And, how to people get more instruction and guidance? I have been immensely blessed by study and conforming my attitudes to what the Scriptures and Fathers admonish.

dunno, most usually have a Bible study that I know. maybe something to start.

I was a little put off with how they described second and third marriages, simply because they said "there can be 100 different reasons someone can get divorced." Jesus only gives one.

yeah, pastoral considerations are taken for marriage 2 and 3. the problem is that can, and often is, easily abused.

The Liturgy of Saint Chrysostom packs so much great stuff in.

just wait til you get St Basil and the Presanctifieds, not to mention Holy Week and Pascha.

 

[abacabb3]

In what way were the gender roles and remarriage more liberal? Certainly I haven't seen Orthodoxy being liberal, though I guess it depends on what you mean by liberal

I asked about evangelism and they responded with local charity work...sort of a social Gospel thing. I asked one priest about my wife's job and how it may conflict with being a mother and he said that God ave my wife certain skills that she should take advantage of and that Paul was addressing a social situation different than our own. I see this in Lutheranism, taken to its logical extent and it is a descent into the abyss.

 

[ArmyMatt]

I asked about evangelism and they responded with local charity work...sort of a social Gospel thing.

which it can be for many, or that could be the primary way that Church witnesses. but that does not mean that you and he cannot work something else out if you feel called to witness in another way.

I asked one priest about my wife's job and how it may conflict with being a mother and he said that God ave my wife certain skills that she should take advantage of and that Paul was addressing a social situation different than our own.

well, he is right in a way, since the social structure has changed, and we gotta deal with it (not saying changed for the better, mind you), but something like that is between your wife, you, and Father. and just because he thinks that, that doesn't mean he would impose his view. he could be talking to a new potential member pastorally.

I see this in Lutheranism, taken to its logical extent and it is a descent into the abyss.

yep, and fortunately our Church doesn't follow that to the extent.

 

[abacabb3]

I hope my replies are not coming off as anti-Orthodox. I am just shooting at the hip here, one worship service is not going to inform me of everything But Matt, I do think you are right that ultimately under the Priest's direction perhaps the church can grow in the avenue of street evangelism. As for Bible studies, he would have to discern if this is edifying to everyone at large.

Matt 16:18 should prevent the abyss we were speaking of.

 

[ArmyMatt]

I hope my replies are not coming off as anti-Orthodox. I am just shooting at the hip here, one worship service is not going to inform me of everything But Matt, I do think you are right that ultimately under the Priest's direction perhaps the church can grow in the avenue of street evangelism. As for Bible studies, he would have to discern if this is edifying to everyone at large.

nah, you are good. every parish has room to grow, and it certainly is not anti-Orthodox to see some places for that growth. if we didn't need to grow, we wouldn't keep looking for converts and baptizing kids.

 

[abacabb3]

Does anyone have any opinion on how veneration differs between RCC an EO?

 

[ArmyMatt]

Does anyone have any opinion on how veneration differs between RCC an EO?

Roman Marian devotions go a tad too far, and some of their theology around her is problematic for us. for all practical reasons, I don't think there is much difference in what we do, but I think there is in terms of what we believe, especially surrounding Mary.

 

[FireDragon76]

In what way were the gender roles and remarriage more liberal? Certainly I haven't seen Orthodoxy being liberal, though I guess it depends on what you mean by liberal

Me neither, "Orthodox" and "liberal" are two words that don't belong together generally. Orthodox are not really raving fundamentalists traditionally (with the possible exception of Seraphim Rose and his devotees), but the Orthodox world is not known for liberalism.

I would describe the Orthodox approach, on the whole, as moderate, with some exceptions. It doesn't really fit easily into American religious categories. Decades ago your average Orthodox Christian was a working class Democrat who was a social conservative on some issues (The Deer Hunter being a good example of this).

 

[~Anastasia~]

Does anyone have any opinion on how veneration differs between RCC an EO?

I wanted to comment more on your thread, but was saving it for when I can devote a bit of time. It deserves more than a quick answer. My apologies.

I think you did hit on a difference that can happen between Catholics and Orthodox.

I don't know very much about devotional practices in Catholicism, but I have seen instructions to do things like "imagine you are there, touching (Christ, the Theotokos, etc.)" or to imagine yourself AS the Theotokos, watching Christ suffer, and so on.

We do identify with the sorrow of the Theotokos during the Lanentations service of Holy Week, and it was utterly poignant to me and brought it home in a way I had never been able to begin to appreciate and understand before. But ... I think I have to say there is a line we do not cross.

Catholics may be encouraged to deeply immerse themselves in an emotional and imagining sense as regards their devotions. If I'm not mistaken, isn't the Rosary frequently used in this way? I'm not sure though exactly his common it is, but my impression is that it is strongly encouraged as a form of deep devotion.

Orthodox teaching on the subject, however, is the opposite, really. We DO reflect on many truths, regarding Christ, the Theotokos, the Saints. But we are strictly forbidden to use imagination in prayer and devotion, and discouraged from intentionally drumming up an emotional response. Emotion, when it happens, can be a good thing, and there are those whose tears flow all the time. But we never, ever, strive for this - that is a way of opening ourselves to delusion.

There is also a fleshly sort of aura that has crept into Catholic art, I have noticed. The bodies are painted in realism, with a roundedness, and often are JUST short of inviting a more carnal appreciation. The faces of those in "worship" are sometimes shown as being in a kind of ecstasy. These things are not foreign to Catholicism.

But you will notice that the more proper Orthodox icons are too sytlized to be fully realistic, and the bodies are not painted in rounded fullness.

I was in an Orthodox Church that had had its original iconography damaged, and they hired someone to do newer work. That person's work was heavily reminiscent of Renaissance style painting. Really, they painted murals, and not icons. I found it quite disconcerting to try to worship with unclad muscular thighs of larger-than-life men dominating my view. My mind can't EVEN go in that direction when I view proper Orthodox icons.

But yes, I can't categorize it all, but I believe there are aspects of Catholicism that risk predisposing them to a certain kind of ecstasy and inappropriate ... something ... with regard to their art, which they venerate.

Orthodox icons, on the other hand, do put me much more in mind of images of loved ones, bringing them to mind and heart, so we can acknowledge our love and respect for them, which IMO is completely appropriate, and does not constitute "worship". I can see an image of my great-grandmother, who was a saintly woman and had great influence on me - indeed, I think it was probably through her prayers that my entire branch of the family tree has come to God, because we were in a sense broken off and none of us nurtured in faith at home. But I can see a picture of her, be thankful for her godly influence and prayers, love and respect her, and kiss the image, I suppose - and that wouldn't be worship. But I wouldn't thrust myself into flights of ecstasy over it.

Please note, I am NOT saying all Catholics do this. I have absolutely no idea of what they do. I am commenting on what I have read as instruction in Catholic books on prayer, and some Catholic religious images I have seen.

 

[abacabb3]

Roman Marian devotions go a tad too far, and some of their theology around her is problematic for us. for all practical reasons, I don't think there is much difference in what we do, but I think there is in terms of what we believe, especially surrounding Mary.

It also depends on the individual. A Catholic apologist friend of mine admitted that he has seen certain lay piety take it too far.

 

[ArmyMatt]

It also depends on the individual. A Catholic apologist friend of mine admitted that he has seen certain lay piety take it too far.

which is also problematic. something like this should be clearly defined so that you don't go too far.

 

[abacabb3]

which is also problematic. something like this should be clearly defined so that you don't go too far.

Doesn't orthodoxy lack such clear definitions, or are you referring to hyper-veneration in RCism?

 

[ArmyMatt]

Doesn't orthodoxy lack such clear definitions, or are you referring to hyper-veneration in RCism?

well, their hyper-veneration, but also that we do have clear definitions in some cases. there is a clear difference between doula (veneration/respect) and latria (worship/adoration). the problem is that with Rome, some of their Marian stuff comes a tad too close to latria.

 

[All4Christ]

Doesn't orthodoxy lack such clear definitions, or are you referring to hyper-veneration in RCism?

Honestly, some of the dogmas defined by the RCC contribute to the likelihood of a skewed Marian devotion (that's not the right word, but I can't think of a better one now). For example, the Immaculate Conception can be viewed as a reason to give Mary more honor than is proper.

 

[abacabb3]

Honestly, some of the dogmas defined by the RCC contribute to the likelihood of a skewed Marian devotion (that's not the right word, but I can't think of a better one now). For example, the Immaculate Conception can be viewed as a reason to give Mary more worship than is proper.

You don't worship her at all right, don't you pay homage, venerate, and ask for intercession instead?

 

[All4Christ]

You don't worship her at all right, don't you pay homage, venerate, and ask for intercession instead?

Correct. Worship is for God alone.

ETA: I edited it above to be more clear

 

[ArmyMatt]

You don't worship her at all right, don't you pay homage, venerate, and ask for intercession instead?

right, there is nothing about her that I don't have access to. so she is the great example of a human person being one with Christ.