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Non denominational?

Thedictator

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So did the pharisees. They debated the law and practised the wrong points and missing the point of it, so much so they couldn't accept the Messiah. The Bible warns against arguing over scripture and I doubt any of us should without practising what Jesus told us to be first.

WRONG! The Pharisees problem was not debate over God's Word, but putting man's Traditions equal to the Word of God. Nowhere in scripture does it warn us against arguing over God's Word, it tell us the opposite, that we are to stand up to false teachers, and gave an account of the truth. What scripture does warn us about is arguing over Religious Traditions ( That are not Biblical ) philosophy and rules of man, not the Word of God. There were two major Groups during Jesus's day the Pharisees and the Sadducees. History tells us that the Pharisees who had some doctrinal problems, many of them became Christians, but the Sadducees who had Gross Falsities in doctrine not one of them became a Christian.
 
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Truly1999

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This was meant to be a nice thread about wondering why non demoninationals call themself so. My point is I think we all have it wrong. Instead it seems to be about debating scripture? I think everyone should read and get to know there bible and learn from others a little but ask God for clarfication. Reading the Bible you get to know it. I would rather get to know the person and how Christ is working their life rather than an exact run down of their beliefs and theologies. Of course if someone saw an error in my interpretation of scripture I would welcome their opinion. If someone saw me acting wrong I would appreciate that too.

Not all of us are called to be teachers. I hope I'm not as thats a lot of responsibility.
I agree with you. However, I think you could have created this thread in another forum, such as Edification, where you would have gotten a more positive response. This forum is geared up for academic debate and by its nature is going to be argumentative. Do not take it personally from other members here. They are not trying to savage you. You are simply driving in the wrong lane. Change lanes and you will be fine.
 
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Thedictator

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If we have homeless on our streets we really can't be doing enough now can we?

Most of the people who are on the streets today are there because that is where they want to be.
Most are Druggies or have major psychological problems ( and will not stay on there meds ) that they can't keep a job. You can't help them until they want help.
 
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Sam91

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Ah... i came back on out of nosiness because I can't sleep. I see why people are saying I posted in discussion and debate.... because it is :/

I thought I was in 'ethics and philosophy' and wasn't sure why people said it was in debate, I even checked and didn't see the little writing at the top saying that... it's a subforum... oops. I'd like it moved somewhere less debate orientated please @DarylFawcett
 
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dqhall

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Most of the people who are on the streets today are there because that is where they want to be.
Most are Druggies or have major psychological problems ( and will not stay on there meds ) that they can't keep a job. You can't help them until they want help.
Some of the homeless people on the streets of America's cities are suffering disabilities, Alzheimer's or old age. They do not have enough strength or mental capacity to gain employment. Some homeless are veterans of foreign wars with war wounds that did not totally heal. Some homeless people were able to transition into jobs and homes. Gospel Rescue Missions provided assistance for the homeless. One homeless shelter in Florida was supported by 17 churches, both Protestant and Catholic.

Jim Cramer was briefly homeless living in his car. He later became a successful hedge fund manager with a 24% average annual return for 14 years. He currently has a stock trading show on CNBC.
 
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Sam91

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Most of the people who are on the streets today are there because that is where they want to be.
Most are Druggies or have major psychological problems ( and will not stay on there meds ) that they can't keep a job. You can't help them until they want help.
Some are homeless due to relationship breakdown and no family. Some are escaping abusive family and job fell through. Some get evicted due to not affording rent and not able to find help. It still means we could sign post those who are sat there hungry and cold to appropriate agencies who are skilled in helping homeless people off the streets into healthcare and jobs. I intend to find out how as it's on my heart.
 
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S.O.J.I.A.

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most denominations actually are doing things in the community in the way of charity and the proclamation of the gospel. the separation has more to do with disagreements on various doctrinal distinctives(ie worship, the sacraments, spiritual gifts, etc).

i'd say the early church wasn't a lot like the "the early church". much of paul's letters to the churches were dealing with the many errors and difficulties they were having. the church has never been perfect, even when it started.
 
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Rob84

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My experience with non-denominational and denominational Christians has been about the same. Certainly this doesn't speak for everyone or every church, just what I have seen locally. I basically comes down to this: "We changed the curtains in the dining hall, everyone!" and that is followed by responses from people that agree, that don't care, that don't like the change, and those that dislike the change enough to fuss and/or leave the church over. Some will go to another kind of church entirely. Some will go to the same kind of church with the old curtains they liked. Some will go to the same kind of church with the old curtains they like, but with a new carpet they can accept. Some will get lost in this process of trying to find the same old carpet, curtains, cabinets, Bible version, chairs, and even the name of the pastor. Then, after years of all this mess they are considerably worse off then if they had not given up everything because of one or two things they could have just let be for the greater good.

Hope that makes sense. I chose to use decoration and furniture as the differences instead of doctrinal issues because it never fails, people will go on a tangent about whatever doctrine issue I use for an example and miss the point lol.
 
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TaylorSexton

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I only use "doctrine" to refer to the ideas people have come up with to divide themselves from others, actually.

I have no idea why. The word "doctrine" means nothing other than "teaching," both in NT Greek and in American defined usage.
 
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Halbhh

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I have no idea why. The word "doctrine" means nothing other than "teaching," both in NT Greek and in American defined usage.

I'm saying how some people, not all, are actually using the term itself now. Not disputing the older definition :) And it's used in more than 2 ways even, I think. Some talking about what they consider totally truth of course, some talking about a church position they take for granted and of which some care and some don't worry, some talking about something too convoluted to mess with learning, some talking about merely ideas people came up as likely to be wrong as right, and my own way I've heard others use as a connotation meaning something like 'human error' in the sense of trying to be intellectual about what is....more holy or transcendent or ineffable.

In a way, 1 Corinthians chapter 8 should be a central thing to learn really, because it applies not merely to customs about dress, food, etc., but about 'knowledge' vs 'love'.

Why not rely on Paul on this one??
 
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TaylorSexton

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I'm saying how some people, not all, are actually using the term itself now. Not disputing the older definition :) And it's used in more than 2 ways even, I think. Some talking about what they consider totally truth of course, some talking about a church position they take for granted and of which some care and some don't worry, some talking about something too convoluted to mess with learning, some talking about merely ideas people came up as likely to be wrong as right, and my own way I've heard others use as a connotation meaning something like 'human error' in the sense of trying to be intellectual about what is....more holy or transcendent or ineffable.

Ah; thanks for the clarification. I am sorry that I misunderstood you initially. :)
 
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rockytopva

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I believe the churches as seven....

Ephesus - Messianic - Beginning with the Apostle to the Circumcision, Peter
Smyrna - Martyr - Beginning with the Apostle to the Un-Circumcision, Paul
Pergamos - Orthodoxy formed in this time... Pergos is a tower... Needed in the dark ages
Thyatira - Catholicism formed in this time - The spirit of Jezebel is to control and to dominate.
Sardis - Protestantism formed in this time- A sardius is a gem - elegant yet hard and rigid
Philadelphia - Wesleyism formed in this time - To be sanctioned is to acquire it with love.
Laodicea - Charismatic movement formed in this time - Beginning with DL Moody, the first to make money off of ministry

There simply are issues with all the churches. I consider myself Wesleyan Pentecostal.... But to the Philadelphia church the Lord says...

Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name. - Revelation 3:12

"No more go out" .... Which is the big disadvantage to the Wesleyan movement... They cannot keep the revival going. The first two generations are great, and after that, well, they become just as bad as everyone else.
 
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Halbhh

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Jesus made it simple. It's the Church making it hard. We have the Holy Spirit to teach.

Proverbs 3:5-7
1 John 2:27

You see we will possibly keep disageeing as I see all this debating as fruitless. Knowledge upon knowledge can only draw one away from God if they are not called to it. Pastors, priests etc, those who need to answer deep questions should be well versed to answer intricasies. But it's not really a relevant topic for me personally you see. I think every Christian should get to know their Bibles inside out tho, but thats a tool many in the early Church did not have.

You know what this sounds like in the epistles?

It sounds like 1 Corinthians chapter 8. Love above knowledge.

Here's another hopeful bit of testimony -- while some in our church baptize their infants, and then rely on the "Affirmation of Baptism", "Confirmation", around age 14 to help internalize their baptism in their minds, others in our own church have allowed their children to choose to be baptized at older ages like 6 and 8 in just the few years we've attended this Lutheran church (a new denomination to me). So, the congregation is quite happily embracing a variety of attitudes on when baptism is good, and *not* getting out-of-sorts about doctrine on it.

They are trusting God to make it work.

People who disagree about doctrines *should* be together doing Love One Another together in the same church, and embracing and loving those that think differently, with love over knowledge. Putting 1 Cor chapter 8 into practice.
 
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Ignatius the Kiwi

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I think you're correct in saying no Church operates in the way the Apostles did. This however is not a bad thing since there are different circumstances in every century that the Church has had to deal with and eventually overcome. The way the Church has dealt with things in the past inevitably becomes a precedent and we shouldn't think since no Church looks exactly like the Apostolic Church (Of which we cannot form a complete picture as to how it looked or operated) that all churches have gotten it wrong.

Your correct in your criticism of modern Christianity yet it cannot apply universally because there are those who actually live according to the mandates of the Gospel yet even they will say they aren't doing enough. We can never do enough as it were, we can never completely fulfil our duty.

That being said debates between Churches are crucial to the future of Christianity. Catholics and Protestants should continue to debate. Eastern Orthodox and Roman Catholics should continue to debate. We cannot ignore each other and live as Christians, we are told to be one and we must strive towards that.
 
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Xeena

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A couple of things. Your move from Pentecostal to Baptist will prove a healthy one spiritually - depending on your congregation. Historically, Baptist have very few doctrines the members of the congregation must agree upon. This openness falls under a doctrine called the priesthood of the believer. Although Charles Stanley is a dynamic speaker and a Southern Baptist, if you knew what he is you would not listen to him. The point TaylorSexton made several times about the relationship of doctrine and practice applies here.

Identifying with a particular congregation ought to carry with it the responsibility of embracing the doctrines. This leads to a healthy and productive fellowship.
Some are homeless due to relationship breakdown and no family. Some are escaping abusive family and job fell through. Some get evicted due to not affording rent and not able to find help. It still means we could sign post those who are s at there hungry and cold to appropriate agencies who are skilled in helping homeless people off the streets into healthcare and jobs. I intend to find out how as it's on my heart.

There are many agencies in place. There are many in it for the benefit. They may start for the right reason, but they end up making a profit. Our largest shelter had kicked one man out. He is disabled, has a brain injury, DVT and cellulitis. The hospital kept him one day shot him with blood thinners and kicked him out. I took him to a doctor for the uninsured for several visits. Got as far as the initial visit with a psychologist by phone, when we walked in they demanded a drug test (although they had seen him and tested him several times already). He got angry and had a meltdown (typical of head injury patients). Although he gave them a sample, they then said they were calling the police on him. So, he never got the psychological visit. They told him to never come back. I saw the letter.

It is extremely hard for these type people to get proper medical help. Which makes everything impossible. This man should be on disability. It is obvious given his multiple medical conditions and mental state. But there is no help for him. It is impossibly frustrating.

I wish you well and admire your heart!
 
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the old scribe

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There are many agencies in place. There are many in it for the benefit. They may start for the right reason, but they end up making a profit. Our largest shelter had kicked one man out. He is disabled, has a brain injury, DVT and cellulitis. The hospital kept him one day shot him with blood thinners and kicked him out. I took him to a doctor for the uninsured for several visits. Got as far as the initial visit with a psychologist by phone, when we walked in they demanded a drug test (although they had seen him and tested him several times already). He got angry and had a meltdown (typical of head injury patients). Although he gave them a sample, they then said they were calling the police on him. So, he never got the psychological visit. They told him to never come back. I saw the letter.

It is extremely hard for these type people to get proper medical help. Which makes everything impossible. This man should be on disability. It is obvious given his multiple medical conditions and mental state. But there is no help for him. It is impossibly frustrating.

I wish you well and admire your heart!
-------------------------------
Yes! Me too.
How do we teach the politicians and public about these mental health issues?
I note you frustration with the "system," but often agencies have neither the resources or right people. There is a limit to the help they can give. Their jobs are emotionally exhausting and can be dangerous. Injuries are common.
Sometimes, they just give up on individuals.
Everyone who works with those having mental health should/must have a supervisor to back them and keep them in check. Under stress and given the wrong day every worker might loose control.

Those suffering from economic and/or relationship issues pose different needs. Congregations in my experience have provided aid according to their resources. Many believers help with what they have. I don't see that caring for the "needy" is a neglected issue among congregations.
 
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Daniel9v9

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Originally coming from a largely Pentecostal, Charismatic and non-denominational environment; now Orthodox Lutheran, though I currently attend a non-denominational church due to lack of choice in my area (I moved to Japan and it's the best English speaking church where I live - my other options are also non-denominations); I can sympathize with the OP as I used to feel like this. I still hold that there's value and truth in striving for peace, unity, compassion and longsuffering, for the sake of the Gospel, and to do good, to which we are called by God's grace.

However, I also think we have to be very careful in asserting that non-denomination or any other branch of Christianity to be "truly Bible-following" and Holy Spirit-led, as really every branch of Christianity claims this.

One thing I learnt through humility, is that the modern idea of the early church is quite far off from the actual proto- and early church, who were both zealous for the Gospel, but also a bit of a mixed bag, due to differences in culture and adiaphora - yet, they held to the same hope in our Lord Jesus Christ.

All denominations have their own quirks, but one danger of abandoning denominations altogether is that, by doing so, we're failing to realize that many non-denominational churches are more or less an extension of baptist, Charismatic and Pentecostal churches (certainly the ones I've been in) - and as such, hold to theology that comes from those, making the claim of purely following Scriptures void. Another more important issue is that my experience, even yesterday in church, the sermon had strong Semi-Pelagian tendencies. In hindsight I also feel like many other old heresies and errors creeps back into the church through careless, under-qualified or over-liberal Bible studies. This is perhaps a harsh claim, but it's almost like the "modern church" are facing and dealing with the same issues that already has been dealt with in the early church; it's a bit like re-inventing the wheel.

All of this is to say, we need to be careful not to assert that our own family of believers are "Bible-following", whilst denoting other families spiritually dead, legalistic or Pharisaical. Because in doing this, we are setting ourselves above others through ignorance. I know I was certainly guilty of this.

The bottomline is that man is divided, but God is not, and neither is His kingdom. We should take comfort in that there is unity in Christ. There's a famous old saying by Irenaeus: "Disagreement in fasting does not destroy unity in faith"
 
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Sam91

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Originally coming from a largely Pentecostal, Charismatic and non-denominational environment; now Orthodox Lutheran, though I currently attend a non-denominational church due to lack of choice in my area (I moved to Japan and it's the best English speaking church where I live - my other options are also non-denominations); I can sympathize with the OP as I used to feel like this. I still hold that there's value and truth in striving for peace, unity, compassion and longsuffering, for the sake of the Gospel, and to do good, to which we are called by God's grace.

However, I also think we have to be very careful in asserting that non-denomination or any other branch of Christianity to be "truly Bible-following" and Holy Spirit-led, as really every branch of Christianity claims this.

One thing I learnt through humility, is that the modern idea of the early church is quite far off from the actual proto- and early church, who were both zealous for the Gospel, but also a bit of a mixed bag, due to differences in culture and adiaphora - yet, they held to the same hope in our Lord Jesus Christ.

All denominations have their own quirks, but one danger of abandoning denominations altogether is that, by doing so, we're failing to realize that many non-denominational churches are more or less an extension of baptist, Charismatic and Pentecostal churches (certainly the ones I've been in) - and as such, hold to theology that comes from those, making the claim of purely following Scriptures void. Another more important issue is that my experience, even yesterday in church, the sermon had strong Semi-Pelagian tendencies. In hindsight I also feel like many other old heresies and errors creeps back into the church through careless, under-qualified or over-liberal Bible studies. This is perhaps a harsh claim, but it's almost like the "modern church" are facing and dealing with the same issues that already has been dealt with in the early church; it's a bit like re-inventing the wheel.

All of this is to say, we need to be careful not to assert that our own family of believers are "Bible-following", whilst denoting other families spiritually dead, legalistic or Pharisaical. Because in doing this, we are setting ourselves above others through ignorance. I know I was certainly guilty of this.

The bottomline is that man is divided, but God is not, and neither is His kingdom. We should take comfort in that there is unity in Christ. There's a famous old saying by Irenaeus: "Disagreement in fasting does not destroy unity in faith"

I don't think anyone understood my idea of the early church. I was talking about their heart. The way they loved people they hadn't met. Philippians 4:22. I guess we do this when praying for persecuted christians.

The way they lived more closely and intruded into others lives a little more. Cornelius' house and that time Paul preached and Euticus fell out the window. People willing to hear when inconvenient.

But I was talking more about Jesus teachings. About giving that extra coat to a brother. Thinking about whether really need these posessions and using the finances instead to advance the kingdom of God. I don't think that extra money should be given to the church, money tends to lead to corruption. I think it should be used where need is seen in daily life to help individuals see God's love in us. We have been given the grace to have the ability to earn it or have it, why not use it wisely to help those who wouldn't get blessed by a charity but to help those we know have need, who know its through our love of God.

Jesus saying about giving up everything to follow him and the parable about finding the kingdom of God and buying the field it's in.

I was talking not on how the Church works but on how we as individuals within that unit could step up more to be involved and do more at work, schools and in the community.

A lot of this is wistful and naive. Some is frustration of wanting to do more but not in a position to serve as my children are always with me. But a big part of it is Revelation 3-4. I was sobbing when I read it again in March. I was hit by Jesus' perfect love, righteousness and justness. The commendations and admonishions He had for the 7 churches. I don't think about the epistles persay when I think of the early church. I think of the people who knew Jesus on Earth and those who met the apostles who knew Him and grasped the meaning of what He said and their lives changed significantly.

But the thread was to not debate that... I'm a novice at forums still. It was to gain an understanding of what non denominational meant to others. I just did it wrong. Still haven't understood that fully. I'm thinking I might just swap how I self-identify to Baptist, non denominational doesn't mean what I thought it did.
Which is Christ is where I am affiliated more than to what Church another person goes to. (As in that someone being a Christian is enough to make them my brother, maybe a wayward one, needing prayer and disillusioned with God's guidance). I do think that all the divisions are wrong but don't want Churches all to merge as I couldn't accept all doctrines, only Christ and that my identity in Him is stronger than my trust in man made theology.
 
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GirdYourLoins

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I have looked at this in the past and have come to this conclusion:

God uses denominations.

The reason being, I for example am a pentecostal. If you put me in a high church I will get bored and would not stay too long as a member of the church. For other people it is the other way around, a lot of people on here for example are apparently not keen on pentecostals. I believe God uses denominations to help people fit into a church that suits them.

This of course does require that the church is till a bible believing church of genuine believers who have to be saved and born again as the bible teaches. It does not allow for people to join a church that is not of God.

Since I have had this view it has also helped me to be less critical of other denominations. In the past there has been a tendency of division amongst different denominations but I can now comfortably take the view that it is not for me to judge and accept believers of other denominations as believers and brothers in Christ.
 
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