Noah's Flood

The Barbarian

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The Earth moves constantly. So this is figurative, not literal. . It isn't meant to be literal, unless you want to deny that the Earth turns on its axis and revolves around the Sun.

Or... it doesn't.

Trust me, it does. Would you like me to show you how we know that it does?

Here's some ways:
How the Earth moves, and how do we know? | ScienceBlogs

If that's not enough, I'll show you some more.

I understand that you are trying to find any way to quickly dismiss the problems with revising that verse to a literal interpretation so you can retain your current paradigm, but if you value what it states in any way, perhaps you shouldn't be too hasty to judge them based on your own understanding.
 
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The Barbarian

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Genesis 7:18 The waters rose and increased greatly on the earth, and the ark floated on the surface of the water. 19 They rose greatly on the earth, and (all the high mountains under the entire heavens were covered). One can only conclude it covered the whole earth!!

It doesn't say so, since "under the entire heavens" assumes a flat area. What we might conclude from scripture that it does not actually say, is merely opinion or wishes.

Yes there is physical evidence of a worldwide flood!

Well, let's take a look at it, then. What do you have?
 
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SeventyOne

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The Earth moves constantly. So this is figurative, not literal. . It isn't meant to be literal, unless you want to deny that the Earth turns on its axis and revolves around the Sun.



Trust me, it does. Would you like me to show you how we know that it does?

Here's some ways:
How the Earth moves, and how do we know? | ScienceBlogs

If that's not enough, I'll show you some more.

Feel free to show me anything you want. It still won't make the earth start moving.

The issue is this. You made an unfounded point and I responded. Then you accuse me of not citing scripture to back it up, even though you didn't show any either. I responded with scripture stating the exact thing I asserted and you still have responded with nothing but your opinion. At what point do you provide the scriptures stating the flood of Noah was a regional flood?
 
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The Barbarian

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Feel free to show me anything you want. It still won't make the earth start moving.

God already did that. Long time ago.

The issue is this. You made an unfounded point and I responded. Then you accuse me of not citing scripture to back it up, even though you didn't show any either.

You still haven't. And I don't have to prove you're wrong; you need to support your belief. I get that you don't accept the fact that the Earth moves. But it clearly does.

Besides the technical reasons I linked for you, there's more. The recession of the moon depends on the rotation of the Earth and tidal forces thereby. The slowing down of the earth's rotation and the recession of the moon are both measurable thanks in part to the mirror array left on the moon by astronauts.

At what point do you provide the scriptures stating the flood of Noah was a regional flood?

We don't even have conclusive evidence that there was a literal flood in which Noah loaded an ark to escape it. It could be an allegory. But the fact that there was a huge regional flood in the Middle East at about the right time, suggests that it was a real flood, albeit not a global one. And as you now see, it doesn't say the entire globe was flooded.
 
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SeventyOne

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God already did that. Long time ago.



You still haven't. And I don't have to prove you're wrong; you need to support your belief. I get that you don't accept the fact that the Earth moves. But it clearly does.

Besides the technical reasons I linked for you, there's more. The recession of the moon depends on the rotation of the Earth and tidal forces thereby. The slowing down of the earth's rotation and the recession of the moon are both measurable thanks in part to the mirror array left on the moon by astronauts.



We don't even have conclusive evidence that there was a literal flood in which Noah loaded an ark to escape it. It could be an allegory. But the fact that there was a huge regional flood in the Middle East at about the right time, suggests that it was a real flood, albeit not a global one. And as you now see, it doesn't say the entire globe was flooded.

Alright. You are living in your own little imaginary world. Enjoy. Bye.
 
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The Barbarian

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Alright. You are living in your own little imaginary world. Enjoy. Bye.

And I believe this one is over. Next time, do a little research and get some facts to support your assumptions.
 
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coffee4u

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The Bible very much says that it was global.

Genesis 7:20 we are told that “the mountains were covered.”
This rules out the flood being local to just Mesopotamian since it would literally require a wall to hem it in. Water this deep does not stay contained in one place, it reaches far and wide.

When God says he distroyed all life outside the ark, he means all life.
If he was only destrying life in the Mesopotamian Valley he would not have required 2 of each and 7 of some animals to come to the ark, he could have directed them away to where the flood wasn't going to be. Given it took them 100 years to build the ark God could have easily directed Noah and his family away as well. Point was there was no where else to go and be safe, which is why he directed Noah to build an ark.

But the bigest factor is Genesis 9:11–15. God made a promise to Noah and his descendants to “never again shall there be a flood to destroy the earth.”
If this flood had been local then God has broken that promise again and again and again. There have been countless local floods since including in the Mesopotamian Valley. There has however never been a global flood since. God made a promise and he kept it.
 
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The Barbarian

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But the bigest factor is Genesis 9:11–15. God made a promise to Noah and his descendants to “never again shall there be a flood to destroy the earth.”

Actually, it was "land", not "earth." Eretz. As in "eretz Israel"; the land of Israel.

When God says he distroyed all life outside the ark, he means all life.
If he was only destrying life in the Mesopotamian Valley he would not have required 2 of each and 7 of some animals to come to the ark, he could have directed them away to where the flood wasn't going to be. Given it took them 100 years to build the ark God could have easily directed Noah and his family away as well. Point was there was no where else to go and be safe, which is why he directed Noah to build an ark.

That's another major problem if you assume it was a literal history. Platypuses, for example, would have to outrun tigers to get to Australia after the flood. And then they'd have to swim across Wallace's Line, which they couldn't do.

And that's just the beginning. The usual creationist response is to start tossing out unscriptural miracles to patch up the problems. Which usually requires more and more miracles to patch up new problems.
 
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DaveISBA

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It doesn't say so, since "under the entire heavens" assumes a flat area. What we might conclude from scripture that it does not actually say, is merely opinion or wishes.
Bible mentions no flat area, it does mention mountains! "What we might conclude from scripture that it does not actually say, is merely [assumption] opinion or wishes" the assumption is yours! Besides how do you cover the highest mountains with water on a flat area?

Well, let's take a look at it, then. What do you have?
The fossils are evidence of a catastrophic worldwide flood! Plants and animals being quickly buried in wet sediment before scavenging/decomposition occurred is almost the exclusive way fossils were formed!

The sedimentary rock layers were formed by the transportation and deposition of sediments by the action of water and are widespread on all the continents covering about 75% of all of the continental area surfaces.

The vast majority of all fossils are of marine creatures entombed in sedimentary rock. Fossilized marine creatures are found on every continent and on the highest mountain ranges, including Mt Everest! The only possible explanation is that waters, containing these marine creatures, at one time in the past covered all the continents!

Add to that according to geologist Robert Schoch, who has done research on the subject, in his book (2003), Voyages of the Pyramid Builders: p. 249 "Worldwide, there are more than 500 flood accounts similar to Noah's that tell of a huge catastrophic flood that destroyed most of mankind and is the most widely told legend among the worlds cultures."
 
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The Barbarian

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The fossils are evidence of a catastrophic worldwide flood!

Nope. In many places, ocean environments including coral reefs are found above and below forests and deserts. How did they all have time to suddenly form during the flood?

Plants and animals being quickly buried in wet sediment before scavenging/decomposition occurred is almost the exclusive way fossils were formed!

No. For example, many fossils show signs of decompsition and scavenger feeding marks. Vertebrate fossils are typically disjointed and found in deltas and other river areas where they fell in or were washed in long after death. We find, in the Grand Canyon strata desert environments, complete with animal burrows. How did that happen during the flood?

The sedimentary rock layers were formed by the transportation and deposition of sediments by the action of water and are widespread on all the continents covering about 75% of all of the continental area surfaces.

Yes, it's on ongoing process. No great flood necessary to do it.

The vast majority of all fossils are of marine creatures entombed in sedimentary rock.

Because shallow continental shelves are most favorable for fossilization. Almost all of them show gradual formation over many, many years. If all the forams that are fossilized in the rocks were to be returned to life and put in the oceans, there wouldn't be room for water. Another important problem with attributing fossils to a single flood.

Fossilized marine creatures are found on every continent and on the highest mountain ranges, including Mt Everest!

No. They aren't just on top of Mt. Everest. Mt. Everest is made of marine fossils. That is because the Himalayas are made of continental shelf that was thrown up when India moved northward into Asia. That collision is still ongoing and the mountains are still getting higher by a few centimeters a year. Yes, we can measure the movement of the plates.

The only possible explanation is that waters, containing these marine creatures, at one time in the past covered all the continents!

And now you know better.

Either there was one great flood, or great floods happen from time to time. The evidence is for the latter.
 
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Brightmoon

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And you obviously don't care that you go against scripture.
. Not a bit as I don’t accept biblical inerrancy and neither does my church
 
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The Barbarian

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And what a sad indictment that is.

Since Biblical inerrancy is not Christian orthodoxy, it's no problem for a Christian.

The Bible is entirely correct. But that doesn't mean that the Earth is flat or doesn't revolve around the sun. Too often, people read all sorts of things into scripture that aren't there.
 
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DaveISBA

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No. For example, many fossils show signs of decompsition and scavenger feeding marks. Vertebrate fossils are typically disjointed and found in deltas and other river areas where they fell in or were washed in long after death. We find, in the Grand Canyon strata desert environments, complete with animal burrows. How did that happen during the flood?
Yes, it's on ongoing process. No great flood necessary to do it.
The animal burrows you are talking about were left by marine organisms burrowing then covered by sediment! Fossil burrows in the Grand Canyon: "Animals burrowed through the soft sediment at the bottom of the ancient seas." Fossils - Grand Canyon National Park (U.S. National Park Service)

Yes, a watery environment was necessary for the Grand Canyon which is yet another example of layers being formed under water! Don't agree with the below duration but:
"With marine environments creating many of the sedimentary rock layers in the canyon over the past 525 million years, marine fossils are quite common."
Fossils - Grand Canyon National Park (U.S. National Park Service)

Because shallow continental shelves are most favorable for fossilization. Almost all of them show gradual formation over many, many years. If all the forams that are fossilized in the rocks were to be returned to life and put in the oceans, there wouldn't be room for water. Another important problem with attributing fossils to a single flood.
Continental shelves? We're talking about where most fossils are found...in sedimentary layers laid down by the action of water that cover 75% of the earth surface and are claimed to have been formed over millions years! How can a creature, like fossilized jelly fish in the Grand Canyon, remain intact for any more than a few days? For an organism to be fossilized, the remains need to be buried by sediment alive or soon after death!

The Chalk deposits assigned to the Cretaceous geologic period, supposedly forming over a 35 million year period, are found on many continental regions of the world, including the British Isle and the American midwestern states, notably the Niobrara Chalk in Kansas.
"The western Kansas chalk beds became famous in the 19th century for (largely complete) fossils of giant swimming and flying reptiles known as mosasaurs, plesiosaurs and pterosaurs as well as fossils of aquatic birds with teeth, 20-foot-long fish, and clams"
Chalk | GeoKansas

There are millions of fossils in Kansas. Here's how you can find one

According to a Kansas Geological Survey Bulletin 225, “The deposition of this [chalk] material took place at a rate of approximately 0.036 mm per year”. How can that be? A 40 ft. mosasaur with a height of say 5 ft. would take about 42,000 years to bury at that rate! According to a theweek. com article, bodies from the Titanic sank to the ocean floor. After just a 100 years “any bodies at the site have long since decomposed”!
 
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Job 33:6

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The animal burrows you are talking about were left by marine organisms burrowing then covered by sediment! Fossil burrows in the Grand Canyon: "Animals burrowed through the soft sediment at the bottom of the ancient seas." Fossils - Grand Canyon National Park (U.S. National Park Service)

Yes, a watery environment was necessary for the Grand Canyon which is yet another example of layers being formed under water! Don't agree with the below duration but:
"With marine environments creating many of the sedimentary rock layers in the canyon over the past 525 million years, marine fossils are quite common."
Fossils - Grand Canyon National Park (U.S. National Park Service)


Continental shelves? We're talking about where most fossils are found...in sedimentary layers laid down by the action of water that cover 75% of the earth surface and are claimed to have been formed over millions years! How can a creature, like fossilized jelly fish in the Grand Canyon, remain intact for any more than a few days? For an organism to be fossilized, the remains need to be buried by sediment alive or soon after death!

The Chalk deposits assigned to the Cretaceous geologic period, supposedly forming over a 35 million year period, are found on many continental regions of the world, including the British Isle and the American midwestern states, notably the Niobrara Chalk in Kansas.
"The western Kansas chalk beds became famous in the 19th century for (largely complete) fossils of giant swimming and flying reptiles known as mosasaurs, plesiosaurs and pterosaurs as well as fossils of aquatic birds with teeth, 20-foot-long fish, and clams"
Chalk | GeoKansas

There are millions of fossils in Kansas. Here's how you can find one

According to a Kansas Geological Survey Bulletin 225, “The deposition of this [chalk] material took place at a rate of approximately 0.036 mm per year”. How can that be? A 40 ft. mosasaur with a height of say 5 ft. would take 62,000 years to bury at that rate! According to a theweek. com article, bodies from the Titanic sank to the ocean floor. After just a 100 years “any bodies at the site have long since decomposed”!

First Records of Plesiosaur Remains in the Lower Smoky Hill Chalk Member (Upper Coniacian) of the Niobrara Formation in Western Kansas on JSTOR

There are only three reasonably complete plesiosaur skeletons (all Dolichorhynchops osborni) known from the Smoky Hill Chalk in Kansas. All three are from the upper one-third (Early Campanian) of the chalk. Other remains are fragmentary and, in most cases, consist of body parts that could have been readily removed by predators or scavengers. Many of these specimens have teeth marks or appear to be partially digested.

Bones of the titanic were destroyed by deep ocean pressures. However the ship itself still remains and will likely be there for hundred, if not thousands of years to come. The marine location in question is of a shallower depth.

How could there be evidence of scavenging of bones if the skeleton was allegedly rapidly buried?
 
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Job 33:6

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I've always been a fan of the graptolite comet.


Chaotic floods blasting mountains into the atmosphere, then you have these delicate thin shells sinking and landing vertically up, sticking out of the sediment with vegetation drifting over them.

Having vegetation around them suggests that they rested vertically, sticking up and out of sediment, for a period of time. Their delicate shells remaining in-tact suggests that they were not exposed to high pressures that would have shattered them.
 
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DaveISBA

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There are only three reasonably complete plesiosaur skeletons (all Dolichorhynchops osborni) known from the Smoky Hill Chalk in Kansas. All three are from the upper one-third (Early Campanian) of the chalk.
We are not just talking about plesiosaur fossils! Findings of the University of Kansas, Kansas Geological Survey: "The western Kansas chalk beds became famous in the 19th century for (largely complete fossils) of giant swimming and flying reptiles known as mosasaurs, plesiosaurs, and pterosaurs as well as fossils of aquatic birds with teeth, 20-foot-long fish, and clams up to six feet in diameter." Chalk | GeoKansas

Other remains are fragmentary and, in most cases, consist of body parts that could have been readily removed by predators or scavengers. Many of these specimens have teeth marks or appear to be partially digested.
That is in conflict with the findings of the University of Kansas, Kansas Geological Survey who noted the fossils found in the western Kansas chalk beds are (largely complete fossils)
Chalk | GeoKansas

Bones of the titanic were destroyed by deep ocean pressures. However the ship itself still remains and will likely be there for hundred, if not thousands of years to come. The marine location in question is of a shallower depth.
The point being made was that the bodies on the ocean floor are long gone and did not fossilize!

How could there be evidence of scavenging of bones if the skeleton was allegedly rapidly buried?

2. The process of fossilization | Digital Atlas of Ancient Life
"Fossilization and the environment
The (rapid burial) of remains beneath a blanket of sediment is critical to the process of fossilization because burial separates the remains from the biological and physical processes that would otherwise destroy them"
 
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The Barbarian

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The animal burrows you are talking about were left by marine organisms burrowing then covered by sediment! Fossil burrows in the Grand Canyon: "Animals burrowed through the soft sediment at the bottom of the ancient seas." Fossils - Grand Canyon National Park (U.S. National Park Service)

These-Are-Not-Worm-Burrows-Jurassic.jpg

Here we have insect burrows dug out of red desert sand later filled in by lighter-colored sand. Early Jurassic.

Yes, a watery environment was necessary for the Grand Canyon which is yet another example of layers being formed under water!

Coconino Sandstone Have you ever wanted to visit the Sahara desert? About 275 million years ago the Grand Canyon area was covered with large dune-fields. The ocean lay to the west. Reptiles, spiders, scorpions, and other insects dwelled on the sand dunes of this extensive desert, leaving their tracks fossilized in the sandstone. This sandstone layer creates a broad, light-colored cliff a few hundred feet below the rim of Grand Canyon. Cross-bedding (lines that run at steep angles to one-another) can be seen in the rock, giving evidence to the wind-blown sand dunes that once covered the area.
https://www.nps.gov/grca/learn/education/learning/upload/GeoArticle-11-1-11-2017.pdf

So how did a desert have time to form, and then be buried in the middle of the flood?

Continental shelves?

Yes, that's where most marine fossils formed. The fossils in Mt. Everest, for example, are from great expanses of continental shelf.

Some exceptions are the white cliffs of Dover that formed from coccoliths sinking to the bottom of a shallow sea that existed where England now is. And the many desert fossils found around the world. And the fossilized remains of animals in ancient river deltas. And so on.

How can a creature, like fossilized jelly fish in the Grand Canyon, remain intact for any more than a few days? For an organism to be fossilized, the remains need to be buried by sediment alive or soon after death!

Fossil jellies are unusual in most places, because they do decompose so readily.

For animals without skeletons, like worms or jellyfish, fossilization is a very rare event. When paleontologists find a well-preserved fossil of a soft-bodied animal, it's an occasion for celebration. For a soft-bodied animal to be fossilized, its body must be protected from decomposition. The body is usually exposed to air and water with a lot of oxygen, so it decomposes rapidly.The animal is likely to be fossilized only if it is buried soon after it dies (or when it is buried alive!). Even then, it is likely to decompose, because water that seeps through the sediment around it usually is rich in oxygen. Sometimes, however, the body is buried rapidly by fine mud.
Under what conditions do fossils form?

In some rare cases, they get rapidly buried (such as the Burgess shale, which was the result of a great underwater mudslide) and do get preserved. But if there was a sudden worldwide flood, we'd see a lot more of them. Which is another reason scientists don't accept the idea of a world wide flood.

According to a theweek. com article, bodies from the Titanic sank to the ocean floor. After just a 100 years “any bodies at the site have long since decomposed”!

Actually, the Titanic is still resting on the sea bottom. Any bodies in the ship would have been decomposed by organisms like arthropods and bacteria. They didn't sink into the mud.

Your problem remains. How did deserts have time to form and be buried in the middle of "flood deposits" in less than a year?
 
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Job 33:6

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We are not just talking about plesiosaur fossils! Findings of the University of Kansas, Kansas Geological Survey: "The western Kansas chalk beds became famous in the 19th century for (largely complete fossils) of giant swimming and flying reptiles known as mosasaurs, plesiosaurs, and pterosaurs as well as fossils of aquatic birds with teeth, 20-foot-long fish, and clams up to six feet in diameter." Chalk | GeoKansas


That is in conflict with the findings of the University of Kansas, Kansas Geological Survey who noted the fossils found in the western Kansas chalk beds are (largely complete fossils)
Chalk | GeoKansas


The point being made was that the bodies on the ocean floor are long gone and did not fossilize!



2. The process of fossilization | Digital Atlas of Ancient Life
"Fossilization and the environment
The (rapid burial) of remains beneath a blanket of sediment is critical to the process of fossilization because burial separates the remains from the biological and physical processes that would otherwise destroy them"

You didn't answer the question of how predation would occur if these fossils were buried, seemingly instantly, according to your beliefs.

All you did was point out that other fossils have been found there too and that some skeletons are more in tact than others.
 
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C1F9A76E-DB41-4549-AC25-10F9F97357E7.png
963503AE-DC8B-4415-8BC0-D452C4F6753F.png
BDCE1C33-86D2-49F2-A4BE-8EEA0A80B72C.jpeg
Graptolites are fossilized pterobranchs . These are very small delicate animals . The middle one is a fossil organism.

The answer to why artists draw these fossil organisms as if they’re still living is because, unless you have an detailed understanding of the anatomy, the fossil sometimes doesn’t make sense .
BC0E4AD9-B0E8-4B93-980E-C102289F1EF1.png
 
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