Noah's Flood

[DaveISBA]

So how did a desert have time to form, and then be buried in the middle of the flood?

The Coconino Sandstone is not a desert it is as the name implies...sandstone and it takes water to form sandstone!
"Sandstone forms from beds of sand laid down under the sea or in low-lying areas on the continents. As a bed of sand subsides into the earth's crust , usually (pressed down by over-lying sediments), it is heated and compressed. Hot water flows slowly through the spaces between the sand grains, importing dissolved minerals such as quartz , calcium carbonate, and iron oxide. (These minerals crystallize around the sand grains and cement them together into a sandstone)."
Sandstone | Encyclopedia.com

Yes, that's where most marine fossils formed. The fossils in Mt. Everest, for example, are from great expanses of continental shelf.

No, "Almost all fossils are preserved in sedimentary rock."
Geology Background

"Sedimentary rocks include common types such as chalk, limestone, sandstone, clay and shale.Sedimentary rocks cover 75% of the Earth's surface."
Sedimentary rock

Fossil jellies are unusual in most places, because they do decompose so readily.

The point being made is that they are found in the Grand Canyon! The area where they're found, the Algonkian Group, had to be deposited rapidly to prevent decomposition!

Your problem remains. How did deserts have time to form and be buried in the middle of "flood deposits" in less than a year?

How would sandstone, not a desert, be formed in the middle of "flood deposits"? It was already explained how! It's not a desert covered by a flood! The sand laid down by the flood became sandstone! the water helped to cement the particles together forming sandstone overlaid by the Toroweap formation (laid down by water) with it's marine fossils!

 

[Brightmoon]

You do realize that sand dunes form sandstone too. Groundwater can cement the grains together as quartz is slightly soluble in water . In fact you can see that if you actually look at a sandstone, you can see where the quartz recrystallises between the sand grains

 

[The Barbarian]

The Coconino Sandstone is not a desert it is as the name implies...

It is formed of desert sand. Fluvial sand is angular; wind-blown sand is rounded. They form differently.

sandstone and it takes water to form sandstone!

Nope.

Sandstone forms where sand is laid down and buried. Usually, this happens offshore from river deltas, but desert dunes and beaches can leave sandstone beds in the geologic record too.
Sandstone: What It Is and What It Tells Us

The fossils in Mt. Everest, for example, are from great expanses of continental shelf.

No, "Almost all fossils are preserved in sedimentary rock."

Continental shelf is sedimentary rock. Thought you knew.

The point being made is that they are found in the Grand Canyon!

Which as you learned, is another reason geologist reject a single worldwide flood. Jellyfish are marine organisms. How did oceans, forests, and deserts have time to form and be buried one on top of another within a single year?

The area where they're found, the Algonkian Group, had to be deposited rapidly to prevent decomposition!

Here, you've assumed what you proposed to prove. As you learned, desert sandstone and desert dunes (both of which are found in the Coconino sandstone, are formed in deserts, not by water.

 

[DaveISBA]

Sandstone forms where sand is laid down and buried. Usually, this happens offshore from river deltas, but desert dunes and beaches can leave sandstone beds in the geologic record too.

But you do need water to make sandstone!
Sandstone | Encyclopedia.com
How does the sand get transported and buried? In the Grand Canyon the sandstone layer is buried below the Toroweap Formation that contains marine fossils! Looking at their boundary lines they are, as with all layers, almost completely horizontal just as what would happen with Hydrologic sorting!

Continental shelf is sedimentary rock. Thought you knew.

I know of no such thing! It may be composed of weathered material to form sand, silt and mud but it is never referred to as, what I've been discussing, a sedimentary rock layer!
The description of Continental shelf's makeup:
"Continental shelves are for the most part formed of sediment deposits that may reach thicknesses in excess of 1 km. These sediments have several origins:
Clastic sediments
Clastic sediments (clast = fragment) are ultimate weathering products derived from rock. Most clastic sediments are terrigenous (materials eroded from land). The products of terrestrial rock weathering are transported mainly by rivers"
Coastal and marine sediments - MarineSpecies Introduced Traits Wiki

Which as you learned, is another reason geologist reject a single worldwide flood. Jellyfish are marine organisms. How did oceans, forests, and deserts have time to form and be buried one on top of another within a single year?

For one thing the layers are not composed of oceans, forests, and deserts! The layers were laid down as deposits of generally their own unique material such as deposits of sandstone, limestone, shale as you would get from Hydrologic sorting that would happen in a single flood! When you have all the terrestrial materials and sediments and running water together the layers are sorted according their particular material and density and deposited as layers. You can see for yourself by grabbing some dirt putting it in a jar with water shake it up. The materials settles into layers!

Here, you've assumed what you proposed to prove. As you learned, desert sandstone and desert dunes (both of which are found in the Coconino sandstone, are formed in deserts, not by water.

Sand dunes can be and are formed underwater!
underwater sand dunes - Google Search

 

[Brightmoon]

You don’t need ocean water to make sandstone . Rain ,with the occasional decayed plant material, calcium carbonate and other minerals from dirt , bones or snail shells will dissolve and cement sand grains together . There is such a thing as desert varnish too , which forms on top of very dry areas

 

[The Barbarian]

Sandstone forms where sand is laid down and buried. Usually, this happens offshore from river deltas, but desert dunes and beaches can leave sandstone beds in the geologic record too.
Sandstone: What It Is and What It Tells Us

But you do need water to make sandstone!

As your source admits, groundwater is sufficient. No flood required.
Sandstone | Encyclopedia.com

How does the sand get transported and buried?

In the case of the Coconino sandstone, wind carried the particles. That's why they are rounded and the bedding is in the form of desert dunes, not marine sand.

The Coconino Sandstone was a Sahara-like sand sea, called an erg. It was a wind-blown dune desert that stretched from present-day Arizona all the way to Canada. Looking west from the summit of the tallest dune, perhaps you could have seen the distant shimmer of Panthalassa, the world ocean of the time of Pangaea. Look for a white or light colored cliff below the Toroweap slopes: the Coconino Sandstone is one of the most conspicuous layers. In the top of the layer, especially, there are shapes like frozen sand dunes. Tilted south, these ancient dunes reveal that the prevailing winds blew from the north.

Coconino grains are quartz, a mineral both abundant and durable. When rocks weather and erode, many minerals may be present in the resulting sediment. Some of these minerals dissolve; others erode to dust. Usually, after blowing in the wind for a very long time, only the sturdy quartz grains remain. These dune quartz grains are very mature: uniform composition, small sand size, very well rounded, and all grains about the same size.


Those features demonstrate the grains’ origin in blowing dunes. Sand transported by water never reaches this degree of maturity because water transports sand more slowly than wind, causing less abrasion. To turn a sediment into rock requires a natural glue: silica and calcite cements are most common. Groundwater introduces these dissolved cements into the sediment. The more cement, the harder the rock.
Coconino Sandstone, Grand Canyon

In the Grand Canyon the sandstone layer is buried below the Toroweap Formation that contains marine fossils!

So tell us how that desert managed to form and be buried in the middle of the "flood deposits" within a year's time? How did that happen?

Looking at their boundary lines they are, as with all layers, almost completely horizontal just as what would happen with Hydrologic sorting!

Well, that seems like testable belief. Show us how "hydrologic sorting" accounts for the different organisms, in the Burgess shale as opposed to the Permian deposits. Show your numbers as they relate to shapes and sizes. What do you have?

Continental shelf is sedimentary rock. Thought you knew.

I know of no such thing! It may be composed of weathered material to form sand, silt and mud but it is never referred to as, what I've been discussing, a sedimentary rock layer!

How do you think those fossils became fossils? The sediment on the continental shelf, as it was compressed, hardened into rock. And the shells and other remains of organisms were incorporated into the sedimentary rock.

For one thing the layers are not composed of oceans, forests, and deserts!

I know you want to believe that, but as you now see, the Coconino formation is the remains of an ancient desert. Below it are layers formed by marine deposits and about it are layers formed by marine deposits. How did the desert have time to form and then be buried during "flood year?"

The layers were laid down as deposits of generally their own unique material such as deposits of sandstone, limestone, shale as you would get from Hydrologic sorting that would happen in a single flood!

"Hydrologic sorting" is an invention of creationists, talking about the distribution of organisms in the rocks, not the types of sediment, which are sorted by other means.

Sand dunes can be and are formed underwater!

As you just learned, geologists can easily tell the difference by the grains of sand in them, and by the shapes of the dunes and how they are cross-bedded.

 

[Job 33:6]

But you do need water to make sandstone!
Sandstone | Encyclopedia.com
How does the sand get transported and buried? In the Grand Canyon the sandstone layer is buried below the Toroweap Formation that contains marine fossils! Looking at their boundary lines they are, as with all layers, almost completely horizontal just as what would happen with Hydrologic sorting!


I know of no such thing! It may be composed of weathered material to form sand, silt and mud but it is never referred to as, what I've been discussing, a sedimentary rock layer!
The description of Continental shelf's makeup:
"Continental shelves are for the most part formed of sediment deposits that may reach thicknesses in excess of 1 km. These sediments have several origins:
Clastic sediments
Clastic sediments (clast = fragment) are ultimate weathering products derived from rock. Most clastic sediments are terrigenous (materials eroded from land). The products of terrestrial rock weathering are transported mainly by rivers"
Coastal and marine sediments - MarineSpecies Introduced Traits Wiki


For one thing the layers are not composed of oceans, forests, and deserts! The layers were laid down as deposits of generally their own unique material such as deposits of sandstone, limestone, shale as you would get from Hydrologic sorting that would happen in a single flood! When you have all the terrestrial materials and sediments and running water together the layers are sorted according their particular material and density and deposited as layers. You can see for yourself by grabbing some dirt putting it in a jar with water shake it up. The materials settles into layers!


Sand dunes can be and are formed underwater!
underwater sand dunes - Google Search

A flood physically cannot form the layers we see.

For example, the green river formation has over 5 million varves.

If a global flood occurred over the span of 1 year, that would equate to a global flood laying down 13,000 repeating (fine and large grained) layers per day, for all 365 days.

This is of course completely absurd for any flood to do.

At best, a single flood would simply lay down 1 cyclothem-like fining up sequence. Maybe 2 as waters retreat, but 13,000 per day, for 365 straight days is impossible by any physics or logical standard.

Old Earth Geology Part 3 (Green River Formation)

 

[DaveISBA]

As your source admits, groundwater is sufficient. No flood required.

Thank you for not discounting a flood!

So tell us how that desert managed to form and be buried in the middle of the "flood deposits" within a year's time? How did that happen?

The question should be how does a desert get buried between 2 layers at all? It's a simple answer though! You insist it is a desert when actually a mixture of sediment transported, sand sorted out and deposited into a layer, sandwiched between 2 layers by the action of water as were the rest of the sedimentary layers likewise sorted! This hydrologic sorting would happen in one flood!
"Sedimentary Rock is a type of rock that is formed by (deposition and cementation) of that material at the Earth's surface and in bodies of water."
How are sedimentary rock layers deposited? | Study.com

Well, that seems like testable belief. Show us how "hydrologic sorting" accounts for the different organisms, in the Burgess shale as opposed to the Permian deposits. Show your numbers as they relate to shapes and sizes. What do you have?

I got a better question? If the layers represent the period in which their fossils are buried in, how could say animals live in an layer environment made up of almost pure limestone, shale, chalk, beddings mostly made up of boulders and gravel etc.?

How do you think those fossils became fossils? The sediment on the continental shelf, as it was compressed, hardened into rock. And the shells and other remains of organisms were incorporated into the sedimentary rock.

The vast majority of all fossils are found in sedimentary layers around the world in every country! These layers make up 75% of all the continental land mass! Show me where they are digging for fossils on a continental shelf?
"Sedimentary rock, rock formed at or near (Earth’s surface) by the accumulation and lithification of sediment (detrital rock) or by the precipitation from solution at normal surface temperatures (chemical rock). (Sedimentary rocks are the most common rocks exposed on Earth’s surface)" sedimentary rock | Definition, Formation, Examples, & Characteristics"

I know you want to believe that, but as you now see, the Coconino formation is the remains of an ancient desert. Below it are layers formed by marine deposits and about it are layers formed by marine deposits. How did the desert have time to form and then be buried during "flood year?"

I answered that already from your 2nd question from the top!

"Hydrologic sorting" is an invention of creationists, talking about the distribution of organisms in the rocks, not the types of sediment, which are sorted by other means.

That's funny! You can demonstrate the process yourself as have I. Here's a video of just such an easy demonstration!

As you just learned, geologists can easily tell the difference by the grains of sand in them, and by the shapes of the dunes and how they are cross-bedded.

So how does that prove that sand wasn't transported by the action of water and deposited into a layer? Other researchers admit that the asymmetrical ripples found in the Coconino formation are due to lapping wave action!

 

[The Barbarian]

As your source admits, groundwater is sufficient. No flood required.

Thank you for not discounting a flood!

You think you need a flood for groundwater?

The question should be how does a desert get buried between 2 layers at all?

No mystery there. Water covered the land at one point, receded and over many, many years a desert formed, with wind erosion producing desert sand and dunes. Then it was again covered by water. How did it a complete desert form between "flood deposits" in less than a year?

It's a simple answer though! You insist it is a desert when actually a mixture of sediment transported, sand sorted out and deposited into a layer, sandwiched between 2 layers by the action of water as were the rest of the sedimentary layers likewise sorted!

Sorry, that excuse won't work. It's rounded desert sand, and the dunes are cross-bedded desert dunes.

I got a better question? If the layers represent the period in which their fossils are buried in, how could say animals live in an layer environment made up of almost pure limestone, shale, chalk, beddings mostly made up of boulders and gravel etc.?

If you thought about it, for a minute, you could probably figure that out. You're looking at areas where sediment gathered. The limestone and chalk are made of the fossils of living things. It's not the environment in which they lived.

The vast majority of all fossils are found in sedimentary layers around the world in every country!

Yep. As you learned, they are quite diverse, from deserts, swamps, grasslands, etc.

These layers make up 75% of all the continental land mass!

No. Most of the continental land mass is igneous rock like granite. The continents have deep roots and are mostly overlaid with a layer of sedimentary rock in many places.

Show me where they are digging for fossils on a continental shelf?

The trilobite fossils? Almost all of it comes from continental shelf. As mountains are folded up, the continental shelf is raised where we can find it.

I know you want to believe that, but as you now see, the Coconino formation is the remains of an ancient desert. Below it are layers formed by marine deposits and about it are layers formed by marine deposits. How did the desert have time to form and then be buried during "flood year?"

I answered that already from your 2nd question from the top!

No, you just denied what it is.

"Hydrologic sorting" is an invention of creationists, talking about the distribution of organisms in the rocks, not the types of sediment, which are sorted by other means.

That's funny!

Yep. I asked you to show us how hydrologic sorting explains Cambrian and Creataceous fossils with your numbers. You declined to answer for the reasons we all understand.

And since drumlins don't show any sign of "hydrologic sorting" of sediment, that story falls apart on inspection.

So how does that prove that sand wasn't transported by the action of water and deposited into a layer?

Rounded sand grains and dune cross-bedding. Which only happens in deserts, not under water.

Other researchers admit that the asymmetrical ripples found in the Coconino formation are due to lapping wave action!

Show us that. The point is that the rounded sand grains and the dune cross-bedding show that they formed in a desert.

 

[East of Eden]

Christians who take every part of the bible literally, the flood according to the bible happened a little over 4000 years ago. A global flood like that 20 feet over the tallest mountain. Your water 4 miles deep. A flood like that would have ripped the earth to pieces and flattened every thing. The oldest man made structure go back 10's of thousands of years none of them would have survived the flood. Geology, biology, physics, and astronomy and carbon dating (Advancing technology has allowed radiocarbon dating to become accurate to within just a few decades in many cases). The bible is the history and myths of the Jewish people. That does not mean god is not real but it does mean, the earth is not flat, diseases were caused by germs not evil spirits, the earth is not the center of the universe. The people of the ancient world believed what they believed out of ignorance. Now as for a massive destructive flood like the Black sea flood, that is probably the truth of the flood that every culture on the planet has a story for. But as for the bibles version of the flood it did not happen.

The Bible doesn't say the earth is flat, diseases are caused by evil spirits, or the earth is the center of the universe.

Jesus believed in a literal Noah, what do you know that He didn't?

 

[The Barbarian]

The Bible doesn't say the earth is flat, diseases are caused by evil spirits, or the earth is the center of the universe.

If you take all of it literally, it says the sky is a solid dome over the earth, with windows in it through which rain falls.

Jesus believed in a literal Noah,

He spoke of Noah as He spoke of people in His parables. Where does Jesus say Noah was a literal person?

 

[East of Eden]

If you take all of it literally, it says the sky is a solid dome over the earth, with windows in it through which rain falls.

No, I don't take the allegorical parts literally. When Jesus said he was a door, does that mean he looks like a literal door?

He spoke of Noah as He spoke of people in His parables. Where does Jesus say Noah was a literal person?

From Paul Carter, The Gospel Coalition Canada:

"There can be no doubt that Jesus believed the stories recorded in the Old Testament were literally true. He refers to the story of Adam and Eve in Matthew 19; he refers to the story of Cain and Abel in Matthew 23 and he speaks about Noah’s flood in Matthew 24.

His statement about Noah is particularly helpful because it reveals that Jesus read the stories of the Old Testament as both historically and typologically true.

For as were the days of Noah, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day when Noah entered the ark, and they were unaware until the flood came and swept them all away, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. (Matthew 24:37–39 ESV)

Jesus clearly believed that the story of Noah’s flood was a type of his own second coming – that is to say he believed that the story established a pattern and provided a picture of the judgment and catastrophe associated with the end of all things. “For as were the days of Noah, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.”

However, it is equally true that Jesus accepted the details of the story of Noah’s flood without any form of embarrassment or apology. He talks about what people in those days were doing, as if he believed they were actually doing those very things. They were eating and drinking, marrying and being given in marriage. And they were unaware until the flood swept them all away. Jesus accepted those details as reliable while simultaneously accepting the pattern as predictive and in some sense descriptive of the future."

Jesus clearly accepted Noah and the Flood as being as literal as His Second Coming will be. I will side with Jesus Christ over those using their fallen and finite human reasoning to decide which parts of the Bible to accept. As I believe Augustine said, if you only believe in the parts of the Bible you agree with, it isn't the Bible you believe in but yourself.

As to the Flood, it is interesting here in the Rio Grande Valley there is 1,500' of water deposited sediment in an area that gets 9" of rain a year.

 

[The Barbarian]

He spoke of Noah as He spoke of people in His parables. Where does Jesus say Noah was a literal person?

From Paul Carter, The Gospel Coalition Canada:

I don't see the book of Paul Carter in my Bible. Do you have something that's actually in the Bible that you can quote here, wherein Jesus says that Noah was not a parable? Personally, I think he was a real person who experienced a catastrophic flood as God willed it, but it's also possible that he and the flood was a parable.

 

[The Barbarian]

As to the Flood, it is interesting here in the Rio Grande Valley there is 1,500' of water deposited sediment in an area that gets 9" of rain a year.

Considering that was at the bottom of a sea a very long time ago, that's not surprising.

 

[East of Eden]

Considering that was at the bottom of a sea a very long time ago, that's not surprising.

It isn't consistent with ocean activity, it is under the Rio Grande river.

 

[East of Eden]

He spoke of Noah as He spoke of people in His parables. Where does Jesus say Noah was a literal person?



I don't see the book of Paul Carter in my Bible.

Neither do I see the book of The Barbarian.

Do you have something that's actually in the Bible that you can quote here, wherein Jesus says that Noah was not a parable?

References in my post, did you read it?

Personally, I think he was a real person who experienced a catastrophic flood as God willed it, but it's also possible that he and the flood was a parable.

So Jesus was misled about that?

 

[The Barbarian]

References in my post, did you read it?

In none of those does Jesus say that Noah is a real person, and not a parable like other people He told us about.

So do you actually have something wherein Jesus said that Noah was an actual person and not part of a parable?

So Jesus was misled about that?

Since Jesus didn't say whether Noah was an actual person or part of a parable, I don't see how He could have been misled.

 

[East of Eden]

In none of those does Jesus say that Noah is a real person, and not a parable like other people He told us about.

So do you actually have something wherein Jesus said that Noah was an actual person and not part of a parable?

In my prior post, perhaps you should reread it? He compares the events of Noah's time with the events of His Second Coming. Is the Second Coming a parable too?

Since Jesus didn't say whether Noah was an actual person or part of a parable, I don't see how He could have been misled.

Sorry, He did say Noah lived.

 

[The Barbarian]

It isn't consistent with ocean activity,

Show us that.

it is under the Rio Grande river.

And it is composed in part, of marine salt deposits:

The Mesozoic marine salt became buried by thick sediments in the coastal plain area. The salt began to form ridges and domes in the Houston and Rio Grande areas. The heavy load of sand, silt, and mud deposited by the deltas eventually caused some areas of the coast to subside and form large fault systems, essentially parallel to the coast.
marine deposits under rio grande river at DuckDuckGo

 

[The Barbarian]

In none of those does Jesus say that Noah is a real person, and not a parable like other people He told us about.

So do you actually have something wherein Jesus said that Noah was an actual person and not part of a parable?

In my prior post, perhaps you should reread it?

You gave me some other guy who thinks so. But unfortunately, he couldn't find any verse that says what you want it to say, either.

He compares the events of Noah's time with the events of His Second Coming. Is the Second Coming a parable too?

So he equates the two, but the Bible does not. You're still missing a statement from Jesus.

Since Jesus didn't say whether Noah was an actual person or part of a parable, I don't see how He could have been misled.

Sorry, He did say Noah lived.

Sorry, He said the Good Samaritan lived, too. So you're back to parable, again.