No one—even God—can know in advance what a free-will agent will choose

[NW82]

An omniscient Creator having foreknowledge of an action in no way, logically, invalidates free will. The OP assumes implication, but doesn't prove the invalidation. Given that God exists outside what we know as time then the argument, again, assumes that the plane of existence is equal and it isn't. The logic of the argument doesn't hold any water, so to speak.

 

[MoneyGuy]

"No one—even God—can know in advance what a (libertarian) free-will agent will choose. For if He did know in advance what you will choose, then you are not free to choose."

If you disagree, please provide an argument (or proof or evidence) why with Scripture & or logic, reason, etc.

You want logic? My kid hates creamed corn and I give him a choice of creamed corn or ice cream, which he loves. I know what he's taking. It doesn't mean he doesn't have free will.

 

[MoneyGuy]

"No one—even God—can know in advance what a (libertarian) free-will agent will choose. For if He did know in advance what you will choose, then you are not free to choose."

If you disagree, please provide an argument (or proof or evidence) why with Scripture & or logic, reason, etc.

You want logic? My kid hates creamed corn and

 

[St_Worm2]

Please elaborate. I assume you disagree with the OP.

Hi Clement, yes, I was just being silly, because if what you wrote (or posited) for us in the OP is true, then all the prophesies and promises God has made to us become, at best, wishful thinking on His part (and ours). And His proclamations (such as the ones you see below), fantasy or lies.

Psalms 139
16 Thine eyes have seen my unformed substance;
And in Thy book they were all written
The days that were ordained for me,
When as yet there was not one of them.

Isaiah 46
9 I am God, and there is no one like Me,
10 Declaring the end from the beginning,
And from ancient times things which have not been done.​

If God's prophesies, promises and proclamations concerning the future are nothing more than wishes, exaggerations, or lies, that would call into question everything else about Him/everything else He said to us.

To be honest, I thought you were going to spin this thread (and our answers somehow) toward Universalism, so I made my silly reply in anticipation of making my real reply instead

Yours and His,
David

 

[gideon123]

No.

It simply means that if you change your mind about the icrecream - God already knew that you were going to do this.

You are free to make your decisions. God knows how they will work out, including any last-minute changes.

If you want better - try praying before you make those free will choices!

Blessings!!

 

[MoneyGuy]

delete

 

[MoneyGuy]

"No one—even God—can know in advance what a (libertarian) free-will agent will choose. For if He did know in advance what you will choose, then you are not free to choose."

If you disagree, please provide an argument (or proof or evidence) why with Scripture & or logic, reason, etc.

You want logic? My kid hates creamed corn and I give him a choice of creamed corn or ice cream, which he loves. I know what he's taking. It doesn't mean he doesn't have free will.

 

[PaulCyp1]

Because God exists outside of time and space, He sees the totality of time and space eternally and simultaneously, just as we can see the totality of the Earth once we move to a position outside of the Earth. At this moment, and every moment, He is viewing the creation of the universe, its eventual destruction, and every event that occurs between those two events.

 

[Far Side Of the Moon]

God is omnipotent. he isn't limited like we are.

 

[MDC]

There are two wrong extremes to have in regards to GOD and man's free will. One wrong extreme is Open Theism (Which is what you are suggesting here) and the other wrong extreme is Calvinism.

GOD knows all things. To know all things is the very definition of Omniscience.

The Lamb was slain since the foundation of the world (Revelation 13:8).
God declared the end before the beginning (Isaiah 46:10).

"Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him" (Matthew 6:8).

In the future, God knows that there are perfectly going to be 144,000 Messianic Jews who are undefiled by women (See Revelation 14:3-5).

Revelation 13:8 and Revelation 17:8 says that there will be wicked men who will worship the beast. God says here that their name was not written in the book of life since the foundation of the world. In other words, God knew their free will choices of committing an unforgiveable sin. What they will do is really, really, really, really so bad that they never had their name in the book of life ever. They did not even have their name in the book of life when they were a child because God knew they would grow up to do this really bad thing.

Then there are the Messianic prophecies and Jewish prophecies (Israel becoming a nation). You have to write off God predicting the future many times within His Word in order for Open Theism to be true.

But the problem with Open Theism is that it puts God inside a box based on man's human reasoning to understand God and our world.

God knows all things because God has ordained all things. And yet sinful man is still responsible for his sin and decisions in life. Isaiah 46:9-11. Romans 9. Taking this to its logical conclusion, all Arminians (free willers) are Pelagian at heart. All pelagians are open theist at heart. So those who hold to free will sovereignty are rejecting the true God of scriptures. Either God is Sovereign or man is Sovereign.. can’t have it both ways

 

[TuxAme]

God knowing what someone will choose isn't the same as forcing them into that choice.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

God knows all things because God has ordained all things. And yet sinful man is still responsible for his sin and decisions in life. Isaiah 46:9-11. Romans 9. Taking this to its logical conclusion, all Arminians (free willers) are Pelagian at heart. All pelagians are open theist at heart. So those who hold to free will sovereignty are rejecting the true God of scriptures. Either God is Sovereign or man is Sovereign.. can’t have it both ways

The problem with the true Calvinist position on God is that it makes God into an angry kid who smashes sand castles for no real good reason. God randomly forces some to be saved and others not to be saved because that is how He feels. If your one of the lucky ones, you may be chosen by God to be saved.

The problem with Calvinism is that it seeks to take a lack of responsibility for one's own choice in choosing God and His good ways. Things like: "...Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things..." (Matthew 25:23) is non-sensical in the Calvinistic world. So a verse like this (among many) has to be changed to fit Calvinism (Instead of a person just reading and believing the Bible normally).

The problem with Open Theism (Which is the other opposite wrong extreme) is that the individual is seeking to make God into a man so that they can understand God and the world He made better. Open Theism is one wrong extreme end of the spectrum while Calvinism is the other side of the wrong extreme end of the spectrum.

 

[MDC]

God knowing what someone will choose isn't the same as forcing them into that choice.

God has ordained all things! And man dead in his unregenerate state, willingly rebels and hates the true God by nature. Apart from regeneration, natural man is held in bondage by his sin

 

[MDC]

The problem with the true Calvinist position on God is that it makes God into an angry kid who smashes sand castles for no real good reason. God randomly forces some to be saved and others not to be saved because that is how He feels. If your one of the lucky ones, you may be chosen by God to be saved.

The problem with Calvinism is that it seeks to take a lack of responsibility for one's own choice in choosing God and His good ways. Things like: "...Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things..." (Matthew 25:23) is non-sensical in the Calvinistic world. So a verse like this (among many) has to be changed to fit Calvinism (Instead of a person just reading and believing the Bible normally).

The problem with Open Theism (Which is the other opposite wrong extreme) is that the individual is seeking to make God into a man so that they can understand God and the world He made better. Open Theism is one wrong extreme end of the spectrum while Calvinism is the other side of the wrong extreme end of the spectrum.

Man is held accountable for rejection and unbelief of Christ and His gospel. Instead of crying about how unjust God is for doing what He pleases with His creation, seek His mercy and to found in Christ.. for that is your only hope. You are an open theist. All free willers are. They believe man is ultimately sovereign

 

[zoidar]

God knows all things because God has ordained all things. And yet sinful man is still responsible for his sin and decisions in life. Isaiah 46:9-11. Romans 9. Taking this to its logical conclusion, all Arminians (free willers) are Pelagian at heart. All pelagians are open theist at heart. So those who hold to free will sovereignty are rejecting the true God of scriptures. Either God is Sovereign or man is Sovereign.. can’t have it both ways

Why can't there be a sovereign God, and at the same time free will of man?

 

[ViaCrucis]

A common flaw is the assumption that God is time-bound in the same way we are. Thus an event can happen in God's future, and for God to know it is for God to be peering into the future as to what will happen.

Consider instead that God knows what will happen in our future not because God is looking forward, but because God is directly observing it as it happens when it happens.

If I observe a person doing something, I didn't cause them to do it; I merely have observed that they do it. Since I exist in space-time and experience space-time linearly then "past", "present", and "future" all make sense from my vantage point. Something happening now is present, but it will soon become past because anything preceding now is the past; likewise anything that has not yet happened is future.

God, however, is not part of space-time, He is the Same in the beginning as in the end. For God to know a thing cannot be like for me to know a thing; bound as it is by the limits of my creaturely and finite existence as part of space-time, i.e., the universe.

If it helps, think instead of all things happening at once in God's eternal now. There is only now with God, no past, no future, no before, and no after. What I do in my tomorrow is no different than what I did yesterday as it pertains to God's eternal now.

The divine observation of an individual act does not create a causal relationship between the two, no more than me observing you select a box of cereal, pour it into a bowl, and pour milk on top makes me the cause of your act, and indeed choice, of what to eat for breakfast.

The point here isn't so much to argue positively how God perceives (since there's no way to know, for God is infinitely beyond and above us); but rather to argue negatively that God is not limited by the human experience of cause and effect as a material part of the universe.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[MDC]

Why can't there be a sovereign God, and at the same time free will of man?

Please explain how that can work together? If mans will is autonomous, then how is God Sovereign? And if God knows all things, even your choices in life, how is this reality not settled from creation? Where exactly does “free will” come into this situation when all things are known of God and settled? It is why all who hold to libertarian free will are open theist and deny the Sovereignty of God

 

[John tower]

I didn't say man saves himself of his own free will.

This argument has to do with whether God predestined EVERY decision you or I make.

The scriptures you posted do not make such a claim. They only speak of salvation, not every decision a person ever makes.

As many as were ordained to eternal life believed and who were before of old ordained to this condemnation : so both according to scripture are pre ordained by God : He is before ALL THINGS and ales : Him who works all things after the counsel of his own will : If all things are after his will there is no place for our own supposed will ; Romans : There is no power but God ! ! !

 

[ViaCrucis]

Please explain how that can work together? If mans will is autonomous, then how is God Sovereign? And if God knows all things, even your choices in life, how is this reality not settled from creation? Where exactly does “free will” come into this situation when all things are known of God and settled? It is why all who hold to libertarian free will are open theist and deny the Sovereignty of God

This amounts to Fatalism, which is heresy.

It is true that the will of man is not free, not on account of God's Sovereignty, but on account of sin; that, therefore, the unregenerate will of man is drawn and inclined away from God toward his own selfish impulses and desires. Apart from the grace of God by which the Holy Spirit, through the Means of Word and Sacrament, takes hold of sinful man, creates faith, justifies, renews, and regenerates the human person is at enmity with God on account of man's sinful will.

But to teach that by God's sovereignty every wickedness of man and devil is to be made culpable is a dire blasphemy against the Righteous and Holy God. It tramples the Gospel underfoot, and makes mockery of the Cross of Jesus Christ; and must be regarded as altogether a contemptible doctrine of hell and anathema.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[zoidar]

Please explain how that can work together? If mans will is autonomous, then how is God Sovereign? And if God knows all things, even your choices in life, how is this reality not settled from creation? Where exactly does “free will” come into this situation when all things are known of God and settled? It is why all who hold to libertarian free will are open theist and deny the Sovereignty of God

I believe that God knows what we freely choose, and God uses our choices to accomplish what he wants. For an example: God knew Judas would betray him and God used Judas's free choice to accomplish what he had predestined before time, that Jesus would die for the sins of the world. Sure, God had the power to make the choice for Judas, but instead he let Judas make his own choice, by free will.

Could Judas have done something different? Of course, but he didn't, and God knew what he would choose. If Judas had chosen something else, then of course the prophecy wouldn't have looked the same way. Yet God knew, and used that evil free choice for the good of the world.

I believe the feeling of guilt comes from that we had the free will to do something different, yet we didn't.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Man is held accountable for rejection and unbelief of Christ and His gospel.

How is man held accountable for rejecting Christ and the gospel if it is ultimately God who makes a person believe or become saved? For do you not believe in Total Depravity? That no man can come to God because they are totally dead? So if this is the case, then the next move to make is on God and not man. But if God just punishes man for nothing he had any control over, then that would be cruel. It would sort of be like a dog owner who chastens his dog for pooping on the carpet (even though the dog owner knows the dog has an uncontrollable pooping problem). Correcting the animal is then pointless because it cannot help but to poop. It then falls into the realm of animal cruelty.

Instead of crying about how unjust God is for doing what He pleases with His creation, seek His mercy and to found in Christ.. for that is your only hope.

Several problems here.

Problem #1. If God does what He pleases with His creation, then why tell me to seek out His mercy (Which implies a free will decision on my part) if it is ultimately GOD who does what He pleases in regards to salvation or changing me? Would it not be God who makes that change in me in order for me to seek Him? If this is the case, then why even tell me to seek after GOD if it is the Lord who ultimately makes a change in me to seek Him? In other words, what you are saying here is contradictory. You shouldn't tell me to do anything if it is ultimately GOD who is the One who makes that choice of salvation for my life.

Problem #2. You are wrongfully assuming I have not already looked for GOD's mercy within my life so far. This is just wrong because I have declared that I am Christian by listing that I am "Non-denominational" in my short bio of each of my posts. It is against forum rules to suggest that I am not saved.

You are an open theist. All free willers are. They believe man is ultimately sovereign

Uh, no. I am not an Open Theist. I have argued against Open Theists many times so I am pretty sure I am not one of them. The tenet of Open Theism is that GOD does not know the future of man. I strongly disagree with this belief. Your asserting the contrary means you either do not know what Open Theism actually is, or you have defined Open Theism according to how you think it should be (Despite the reality of Open Theists who have existed in the past and who exist now).

Oh, and not all people who claim to believe in free will choice in regards to their ability to choose God believe that mankind is ultimately sovereign over God. That is another baseless accusation. I believe God works all things (both good and bad) for a greater purpose for good. We see this in the story of Joseph. What Joseph's brothers intended for evil against Joseph, God intended it for good in Joseph's life. This does not mean that God intended evil to take place, but God was able to turn a bad situation in Joseph's life into a greater purpose or plan for good in his life. I believe God had predicted before the foundation of the world the death of Christ. This is only possible to have a belief like this unless I believe God is sovereign. So no. You don't know what Christians who believe in free will actually believe.