No one—even God—can know in advance what a free-will agent will choose

MDC

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? Don't you read the posts here? I believe in free will and also that God uses all to his purpose... I think you don't understand the free willers position. Free will doesn't mean you can save yourself. Salvation is allways the gift of God.
If you believe that God works all things to His purpose and will, then you wouldn’t believe in “free” will. You would believe what the Bible teaches, that all things have been foreordained and decreed by God. I understand free will very well. It’s you that is confused in some way. If you believe salvation a gift then you’d believe the decisive factor in salvation is the grace of God. Not mans will. Romans 9:16. All that the Father gives Me shall come to Me.. John 6:37. And wouldn’t deny the election of grace.
 
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John tower

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Never said man has no will. And I agree God turns all things to His purposes. But the free willer doesn’t believe this. And yes, the root of Arminianism is pelagianism. Whether sinful man doesn’t need God’s grace, or the actions of mans will prompts Gods

( 7 ) : ” THE GREATEST FALSE TEACHING OF THE CHURCHES ! “
August 17, 2017gigoboy777 Leave a comment
The standard teaching in the present day churches is that yes, we cannot save ourselves : That the only thing we have is our own free will, to either choose or reject God . Well does the Bible teach that we choose God of our own free will ? JOHN 1 ( 13) : ” Which were born NOT OF THE WILL OF MAN , BUT OF GOD ! ” ROMANS 9 ( 16 ) : ” So then IT IS NOT OF HIM THAT WILLETH , BUT OF GOD . ” JAMES 1 ( 18 ) : ” OF HIS OWN WILL begat he us with the word . ” So according to the Bible : It is NOT OF MAN’S WILL , BUT ONLY GOD’S WILL ! EPHESIANS 1 ( 11 ) : ” Him who works ALL THINGS AFTER the counsel of HIS OWN WILL . ” : ALL THINGS AFTER HIS WILL LEAVES NO PLACE FOR OUR OWN SUPPOSED FREE WILL ! So this teaching that man has his own free will is completely contrary to scripture : It falsely exalts man with power that he in truth does not have. Well you might ask : Why did not God not give man his own free will ? HEBREWS 12 ( 2 ) : ” Looking unto JESUS , THE AUTHOR AND FINISHER OF OUR FAITH ! ” : So CHRIST IS THE SOLE AUTHOR AND FINISHER OF OUR FAITH ! THERE IS NO ONE BETTER QUALIFIED THAN CHRIST TO TRAIN US : CERTAINLY NOT OURSELVES : SO THIS IS PRECISELY WHY CHRIST DID NOT GIVE US A FREE WILL , BECAUSE ONLY CHRIST CAN DO A PROPER JOB ! Only CHRIST knows what things we need to learn , we do not know these things : so what in the world would we do with a free will if such a thing existed : Answer : We wouldn’t have a clue , which is of course why CHRIST did not give us a free will : WE ARE JUST CLAY IN THE GREAT POTTERS HANDS , and thank God , no one can do a better job then God! PHILIPPIANS 1 ( 6 ) : ” He which began a good work in you will continue it unto the day of CHRIST . ” : He began it , not us , and he will finish it not us ! PHILIPPIANS 2 ( 13 ) : ” For IT IS GOD WHICH WORKETH IN YOU , BOTH TO WILL AND TO DO OF HIS GOOD PLEASURE ” : GOD NOT US ! This is solely the work of God : to say that man has any part in it is falsely exalting man : usurping the work of God and falsely placing it in man’s hands : an obvious blasphemy against God , and it is widely taught in the mainstream churches, and needs to be exposed for the blasphemy that it is ! EPHESIANS 2 ( 8-10 ) : 8 : ” For by grace are you saved through faith, AND THAT NOT OF YOURSELVES, it is the gift OF GOD ” 9 : ” NOT OF WORKS LEST ANY MAN SHOULD BOAST ” 10 : ” For we are HIS WORKMANSHIP ” Nothing of ourselves! ROMANS 13 ( 1 ) : ” THERE IS NO POWER BUT GOD ! ” No room here for man to have his own power of free will : No power but God. PSALMS 65 ( 4 ) : ” Blessed is the man whom THOU CHOOSEST AND CAUSEST TO APPROACH UNTO THEE . ” : God chooses his elect , and God causes them to come to him by his call, not us by our own supposed free will : totally unscriptural ! Choosing God would of course be a good thing to do, and if we really did choose God of our own free will we would be at least partially righteous, because choosing God would be a good thing, but such is definitely not the case as the Bible clearly says there are non righteous because we do not have the power to come to God of our own will as CHRIST clearly says in JOHN 6 ( 44 ) : ” No man can come to me unless THE FATHER DRAWS HIM . ” : ONLY THE FATHER CAN DRAW HIM : HE CANNOT COME OF HIS OWN POWER ! STOP BLASPHEMING AND SAYING THAT MAN SAVES HIMSELF BY HIS OWN FREE WILL WORK OF CHOOSING GOD : IT IS TOTALLY AND SOLELY THE WORK OF GOD !


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grace, or “prevenient” grace is a help, is all the same and rooted in that heresy of pelagianism. The false teaching of prevenient grace is nothing more than a diversion and smokescreen to hide its true origin. What they see as prevenient grace is no grace at all, when mans will is ultimately the determining factor in salvation. Not Gods gracious will! This grace doesn’t save! Just a help, as papist say. Any form of synergistic soteriology has its roots in pelagianism. They deny the depravity of man which in turn denies original sin. The arrogant free will teaching can never give all the glory to Christ in salvation
 
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TogetherInJesus

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God is not limited by time, he is outside of time. Our future can be known without being predetermined. I can see a child alone in a room with some candy and pretty well know that they will eat it and they still had freewill. Just imagine if I was infinitely intelligent than I could 100% know what the child was going to do.
 
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John tower

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? Don't you read the posts here? I believe in free will and also that God uses all to his purpose... I think you don't understand the free willers position. Free will doesn't mean you can save yourself. Salvation is allways the gift of God.
Ephesians 1(11): Him who works all things after his own will ! : If all things are after his will our own free will is an impossibility Rom 13(1) , John 1(13), Rom 9(16), James 1(18) !
 
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zoidar

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Ephesians 1(11): Him who works all things after his own will ! : If all things are after his will our own free will is an impossibility Rom 13(1) , John 1(13), Rom 9(16), James 1(18) !

I think you are reading in a little too much in those verses.

What exactly do you mean by "all things are after his will"? Do you mean even me sinning is after his will? Do you mean Hitler killing all those jews was God's will?
 
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LoveofTruth

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Ephesians 1(11): Him who works all things after his own will ! : If all things are after his will our own free will is an impossibility Rom 13(1) , John 1(13), Rom 9(16), James 1(18) !
And yet scripture teaches the exact opposite...

consider, it would be good to answer this verse directly before quoting another verse that is not related. There are many verses that speak of freewill in the bible and man's will. Even Jesus said "not my will but thine be done.

Ezra 7:13
"I make a decree, that all they of the people of Israel, and of his priests and Levites, in my realm, which are minded of their own freewill to go up to Jerusalem, go with thee."

and another few just to have a few more witnesses. There are too many to post here.

Psalm 119:108
"Accept, I beseech thee, the freewill offerings of my mouth, O Lord, and teach me thy judgments."

Leviticus 23:38
"Beside the sabbaths of the Lord, and beside your gifts, and beside all your vows, and beside all your freewill offerings, which ye give unto the Lord."
 
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LoveofTruth

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I'm struggling to get the gist of your post due to some punctuation errors.

However, I'll try.

"him who works all things according to the counsel of his will" in Ephesians does not even imply that there is no will in man at all. It simply means that God's will over-rides our will, or he is able to use our choices for his own purposes.

The doctrine of Total Depravity does not state mankind has no will, only that mankind is a slave to sin with a will in bondage to it. (Have a look at Luther's 'Bondage of the Will'). To say mankind has no will is an extreme Calvinism that not many Calvinists will hold to.

By the way, you will not find a single scripture claiming that people or pre-ordained to Hell. That is simply just a logical conclusion that you have to come to yourself if you believe people are predestined to heaven. However, the Bible makes no such logical conclusion, so you would be going one step further in making that assumption.
and when he says "there is no power but of God_" he is referring to Romans 13 which is speaking of governments and authortiy not the word power as in Acts 1 or as it is used in some other places. This is an error also in that doctrine.
 
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BobRyan

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"No one—even God—can know in advance what a (libertarian) free-will agent will choose. For if He did know in advance what you will choose, then you are not free to choose."

If you disagree, please provide an argument (or proof or evidence) why with Scripture & or logic, reason, etc.

God knows the "end from the beginning" He knows right down to how many times the rooster will have crowed before Peter would have denied Christ 3 times.

If God were downsized to the point of a human - then the only way God "can know" the future is that he "programs robots".

God is infinitely bigger than that - so the "proof" that he can know how many times some rooster will have crowed before one of his most devoted disciples would have denied him 3 times -- is that He claims it .. and then it happens just as God said it would.
 
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HatGuy

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Never said man has no will. And I agree God turns all things to His purposes. But the free willer doesn’t believe this. And yes, the root of Arminianism is pelagianism. Whether sinful man doesn’t need God’s grace, or the actions of mans will prompts Gods grace, or “prevenient” grace is a help, is all the same and rooted in that heresy of pelagianism. The false teaching of prevenient grace is nothing more than a diversion and smokescreen to hide its true origin. What they see as prevenient grace is no grace at all, when mans will is ultimately the determining factor in salvation. Not Gods gracious will! This grace doesn’t save! Just a help, as papist say. Any form of synergistic soteriology has its roots in pelagianism.

I don't mind someone being a Calvinist and representing their views on the matter. But I do mind when someone is spreading misinformation.

I will reply in terms of Classical Arminianism, as that is my position.

a. Of course the "free willer" (a horrible term to describe an Arminian) believes God turns all things together for his good purposes. We have it a little easier to believe this because we don't claim that part of God's good purposes is to deliberately damn people into hell for eternity, against their wishes or choice. Instead, what it means that God turns things according to his purpose, is that he can bring good things even out of evil things. He can turn sorrow into a moment where people grow into compassion towards others, even though he didn't cause or want anyone to experience sorrow.

b. No, the root of Arminianism is not Pelagianism. This is historically and factually incorrect. Especially if you're speaking about Classical Arminianism.

Classical Arminianism teaches that God does the saving through the convicting work of the Holy Spirit. It is the Spirit which provides the faith to believe in Christ. It is the Spirit which frees the will to believe. Man is not saved by his free will but by Christ and faith in Christ. Salvation is conditioned on faith, which is what the Bible says everywhere.

The Calvinist is in the position where they ground salvation on predestination. In other words, salvation is effectively conditioned on God's choosing, which you would call Unconditional Grace. However, the bulk of the Biblical passages condition salvation on faith in Christ, not on God's hidden will or predetermined choosing. And this is a faith that God Himself supplies when people hear the Word. (Romans 10:17.)

It is simply good exegesis to take the easier to understand passages at face value, and work on the more difficult passages in light of the easier ones. Since predestination is mentioned far less in the scriptures than faith in Christ, I think it's clear that the condition of salvation is faith in Christ and not predestination.

This is why salvation is God's work from end to end. Jesus died for us all, and I didn't. God supplied the faith for me to believe, and I didn't. God poured out His grace over me, and I had nothing to do with that. Saying that my receiving of the gift of salvation gives me glory is ridiculous. Did I come up with salvation? No. Did I die for my own sins? No. Did I have faith to believe? No, it was given to me. Did I pour grace on myself? No. Did I free my own will up from sin so I could believe? No, the Holy Spirit did that. Did I enlighten my own mind and heart with the Truth? No. Did I come to believe on my own, with no one telling me the gospel? No. Did I make up the gospel? No. So where possibly could I attain glory? For simply saying, "Yes, I'll take it."? A "Yes" that could only be said because of the Spirit Himself freeing my will up in that moment to do so? That's like saying that if I was the perfect husband, my wife gets some glory for saying "yes" to my proposal to be married. There is no glory for man in salvation except the glory that God graciously gives us when He will at last glorify us, as the scriptures say. It is grace from start to finish - and it is grace for all.

c.
They deny the depravity of man which in turn denies original sin.

Absolutely untrue. Here's a quote from Arminius himself:

"In this state [he is speaking of the fallen state], the free will of man towards the true good is not only wounded, maimed, infirm, bent, and weakened; but it is also imprisoned, destroyed, and lost. And its powers are not only debilitated and useless unless they be assisted by grace, but it has no powers whatever except such as are excited by Divine grace.

"... in his lapsed and sinful state, man is not capable, of and by himself, either to think, to will, or to do that which is really good; but it is necessary for him to be regenerated and renewed in his intellect, affections or will, and in all his powers, by God in Christ through the Holy Spirit, that he may be qualified rightly to understand, esteem, consider, will, and perform whatever is truly good. When he is made a partaker of this regeneration or renovation, I consider that, since he is delivered from sin, he is capable of thinking, willing and doing that which is good, but yet not without the continued aids of Divine Grace."


Roger Olson, a well-known Arminian, describes it as such:

"ARMINIANS together with Calvinists affirm total depravity because of the fall of humanity in Adam and its inherited consequence of a corrupted nature in bondage to sin. A common myth about Arminianism is that it promotes an optimistic anthropology.”

As a Classical Arminian I can categorically state that I believe in the total depravity of man and the bondage of the will to sin. The only way the will is freed is by the grace of God and the work of the Holy Spirit. What is meant by 'prevenient grace' is that the Word of God, the gospel, is the power of salvation. (Romans 1:16,17.) When a person hears this gospel, it gives faith to those who encounter it, because the Spirit works through it, and that faith is enough to believe on Christ and be saved. This is all the work of God.

Please do not misrepresent Arminianism. Study it and get to know its intricacies, otherwise you will not be effective. Please stop re-iterating the myth that Arminianism is Pelagian. Pelagius taught none of this. He believed man's will was perfectly unscathed through the fall, and people could live moral, upright lives without the aid of the Spirit or of grace. Jesus, then, becomes an example to follow and not a saviour to believe in.

I'll grant you that there are many forms of Arminianism today, or that many (even heretical) ideas tend to fall under the umbrella of "Arminianism", but at the same time there are a lot of heresies and weird forms of Calvinism out there. But go look at Classical Arminianism. You'll be surprised by what you find.
 
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HatGuy

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With regards to the original topic, I find the story in 1 Samuel 23 interesting. Here David learns that Saul wants to harm him. He asks God if 1) whether the people of Keilah would surrender him into Saul’s hand, and 2) whether Saul would indeed come to Keilah.

God says these things will happen, and so David flees. In the end, because David fled, they did not happen. So did God lie about the future? Or was the future not determined? Or did God warn David about a possible future that He foreknew?
 
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John tower

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And yet scripture teaches the exact opposite...

consider, it would be good to answer this verse directly before quoting another verse that is not related. There are many verses that speak of freewill in the bible and man's will. Even Jesus said "not my will but thine be done.

Ezra 7:13
"I make a decree, that all they of the people of Israel, and of his priests and Levites, in my realm, which are minded of their own freewill to go up to Jerusalem, go with thee."


and another few just to have a few more witnesses. There are too many to post here.


Psalm 119:108
"Accept, I beseech thee, the freewill offerings of my mouth, O Lord, and teach me thy judgments."


Leviticus 23:38
"Beside the sabbaths of the Lord, and beside your gifts, and beside all your vows, and beside all your freewill offerings, which ye give unto the Lord."
Often people say free will but the bible clearly states that there is only the will of God : Phil 2(12&13): illustrates this clearly where the first verse says we are to work out our own salvation : If we just listened to the first verse we would think it is our own work , but the next verse goes on to clarify that it is neither our will nor our work but only God : You cannot quote random verses out of context like you have done : you could almost make the bible say anything if you take random verses out of context : Listen to Phil 2(12&13): Work Out your own salvation with fear and trembling : For it is GOD that worketh in you BOTH WILL AND TO DO OF HIS GOOD PLEASURE ! So stop taking random verses out of context : There is only the will and power of God : Eph 1(11), Rom 13(1), Jer 10(23), James 1(18)!
 
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John tower

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I think you are reading in a little too much in those verses.

What exactly do you mean by "all things are after his will"? Do you mean even me sinning is after his will? Do you mean Hitler killing all those jews was God's will?
Do not wrest scripture : it says exactly what it says : people wrest scripture when it clashes with their own personal beliefs : Rom 8(28): ALL THINGS work together for good : ALL THINGS ! ! ! Will post another study that illustrates this in detail if you are able to understand it !
 
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John tower

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I think you are reading in a little too much in those verses.

What exactly do you mean by "all things are after his will"? Do you mean even me
( 6 ) : ” THE GREATEST BLASPHEMY : PART 1 . “
August 14, 2017gigoboy777 Leave a comment


Christ said in MATTHEW 15(9) : ” In vain do they worship me , teaching for doctrines the commandments of men . ” Sadly the mainstream churches today are full of these false doctrines of men that Christ talked about here . The most blasphemous false doctrine of men is the teaching that God did not create all things, and that God is not even in control of his own creation ! How do they arrive at this blasphemous false doctrine ? The bible says to trust in God, and not lean unto our own understanding : PROVERBS 3(5) : ” Trust in the Lord with all your heart, and lean not unto your own understanding , ” Why does the bible tell us not to lean unto our own understanding ? : 1 CORINTHIANS 13(12) : ” For now we see through a glass darkly , for NOW WE KNOW IN PART . ” This is why the bible tells us not to lean unto our own understanding : Because we presently have very limited understanding, and we will think that we see something wrong, WHEN THERE IS IN FACT NOTHING WRONG, WE JUST THINK THAT WE SEE SOMETHING WRONG , BECAUSE OF OUR LIMITED UNDERSTANDING . A perfect example of this is the teaching that evil could not possibly have a good purpose in God’s creation : So we say that God has nothing to do with it . Well for starters the Bible clearly states that GOD CREATED EVIL : ISAIAH 45(7) : ” I make peace AND CREATE EVIL , I THE LORD DO ALL THESE THINGS. ” Well the question of course arises : Why did God create evil ? If we read GENESIS 3(22) : We see that GOD HIMSELF SAYS : ” The man is become as one of us , to know good AND EVIL ! ” So ACCORDING TO GOD HIMSELF , EVIL DOES INDEED HAVE A GOOD PURPOSE : IT IS PART OF BECOMING AS A GOD ! But if we lean unto our own understanding , we don’t understand this, and we think that evil is only bad : So we then say that God did not create it , thus now SAYING THAT GOD DID NOT CREATE ALL THINGS : ” A SUPER SERIOUS BLASPHEMY .” We say that God does not want evil in his creation : Yet evil is still there : THUS IMPLYING THAT GOD IS NOT EVEN IN CONTROL OF HIS OWN CREATION : Because according to them all these things are there that God supposedly does not want : YET ANOTHER SUPER SERIOUS BLASPHEMY AGAINST GOD ! The truth of course is that GOD CREATED ALL THINGS , INCLUDING EVIL : AND THEY ALL WORK TOGETHER FOR GOOD in his great plan , and God is in absolute control, even if we don’t understand it yet ! Listen to what God says to us in ISAIAH 55(8&9) : ” 8 : ” For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways , ” 9 : ” For as the heavens are higher then the Earth , so are my ways higher then your ways , and my thoughts then your thoughts . ” Following are a few more examples of things that God uses to fulfill his purposes that if we lean unto our own limited understanding, we might think are bad , thus saying that what God does is bad ; 1 SAMUEL 16(14) : ” But the spirit of the Lord departed from Saul, and AN EVIL SPIRIT FROM THE LORD troubled him .” and 1 KINGS 22(23) : ” Now therefore behold : THE LORD HATH PUT A LYING SPIRIT in the mouth of all these thy prophets .” So remember PROVERBS 3(5) : ” Trust in the Lord with all thine heart , and lean not unto thine own understanding .” STOP BLASPHEMING EVERY TIME YOU SEE SOMETHING YOU DONT UNDERSTAND , AND SAYING THAT GOD DID NOT DO IT OR CREATE IT : YOU ARE ON VERY DANGEROUS GROUND ! PROVERBS 3(7) : ” BE NOT WISE IN THINE OWN EYES , FEAR THE LORD, DEPART FROM EVIL . ” : IT IS A GREAT EVIL TO BE WISE IN THINE OWN EYES AND JUDGE GOD !


sinning is after his will? Do you mean Hitler killing all those jews was God's will?
 
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John tower

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and when he says "there is no power but of God_" he is referring to Romans 13 which is speaking of governments and authortiy not the word power as in Acts 1 or as it is used in some other places. This is an error also in that doctrine.
Nowhere does it say in Rom 13(1) that he is talking only about govt authorities , he is just using this as one example : he of course is over all things in existence : Eph 1(11) : Stop wresting scripture to try and make it say things that it clearly does not : don’t add things like this unto scripture or God may add something unto you : be careful !
 
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Often people say free will but the bible clearly states that there is only the will of God : Phil 2(12&13): illustrates this clearly where the first verse says we are to work out our own salvation : If we just listened to the first verse we would think it is our own work , but the next verse goes on to clarify that it is neither our will nor our work but only God : You cannot quote random verses out of context like you have done : you could almost make the bible say anything if you take random verses out of context : Listen to Phil 2(12&13): Work Out your own salvation with fear and trembling : For it is GOD that worketh in you BOTH WILL AND TO DO OF HIS GOOD PLEASURE ! So stop taking random verses out of context : There is only the will and power of God : Eph 1(11), Rom 13(1), Jer 10(23), James 1(18)!
You've misquoted Phil 2:13.

"For God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure."

He gives you the will to do his work. So you have a will, and He is sanctifying and transforming it.
 
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John tower

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You've misquoted Phil 2:13.

"For God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure."

He gives you the will to do his work. So you have a will, and He is sanctifying and transforming it.
Stop reading those satanic false translations : the KJV is the golden standard : you will be led astray with those false translations !
 
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Stop reading those satanic false translations : the KJV is the golden standard : you will be led astray with those false translations !
KJV: "For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure."

Seems even KJV says the same thing. God gives you the will to do his work. So you have a will, and He is sanctifying and transforming it.
 
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