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NO MORE PREACHING ON HELL

miknik5

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Yes, miknik5, diversity in understanding the gospel.

I have spent many years doing adult education, especially at international level, where participants come from many languages and cultural backgrounds. The training is done in English.

Those who do a lot of adult eduaction know that every participant comes with a unique cultural and linguistic heritage, as well as educational background and personal experience. They all hear me say the same words, but everyone of them filters my words through their accumulated assumptions and experience, to understand my message in a unique way. In other words, though I say the same exact thing to all 25 in the class, 25 different things are heard and understood. Many of these participants are far more academically and experientially qualified in the subject matter than I am. What do I bring to them in the course, then? My role is provoke (yes provoke) a discussion amongst them, because in that dicussion everyone of them gains a new perspective, a new insight, a fuller understanding of the subject matter, and in many cases the process generates entirely new ideas.

So it is with the gospel. You may insist that there is only one gospel. But I assure you that everyone of us who encounters Jesus and his good news to us experiences it like no one else. That's why it is personal. God knows what aspect of his good news is particularly pertinent to me today. And as long as I live, I know that I will find new wonders in that good news - things I did not know or understand when I first met him. My understanding when I was 15 is very different from it is now, and I wait eagerly to hear what new things I will learn from him tomorrow, next week or next year!

If you genuinely want to have Bible references to some of the (different) gospels mentioned I would be glad to give them to you ... though I would hope that you would actually go to the entire context and examine them thoroughly. You might be surprised. :)
No thanks. I don't want any misunderstood references to "other gospels"

There aren't any

Just those who have misunderstood or misinterpreted or misrepresented the ONE GOSPEL
 
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Monna

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No thanks. I don't want any misunderstood references to "other gospels"
They are not misunderstood references to "other gospels." They are real references in the Bible.

In Galatians 1:6-8 (KJV) Paul writes
6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:

7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.

These other preachers taught "another gospel" which Paul calls a perversion and therefore not really a gospel at all. But it was presented to the Galations as "gospel."

Later in the same letter he writes (Galatians 5:11 (RSV)) ... "But if I, brethren, still preach circumcision, why am I still persecuted?" He is refering to an earlier period in his life when he preached the gospel that many of the apostles (especially James) preached - that the gospel required gentile males to be circumsised and become jews. Paul seems to have required Timothy to be circumcised, but he had understood that God's grace did not require circumcision by the time Titus became a believer. He had to battle hard to get this accepted by the elders in Jerusalem, but eventually did. It was partly through this process, that Christianity moved from being a jewish sect to becoming a distinct faith. But for many years the gospel preached out of Jerusalem included the necessity of circumcision. Note also in early Acts, that the disciples continued going to the temple to worship and teach.

If you read Peter's Pentecost message you will see that he retained his very Jewish idea of the Messiah. The crucifixion was from their perspective something that shouldn't have happened, and which had to be corrected by God in the resurrection. Furthermore, they believed Jesus was returning soon (certainly before the death of John) and so the message contains a warning and an implied threat: if you don't repent (of crucifying Jesus) you're facing his wrath when he returns (and that soon) to impose his rule. There is nothing here that sounds like "Jesus died for our sins," which Paul later preached and refered to as "my gospel."

Some of the disciples had been followers of John the baptist who preached confession and baptism for the forgiveness of sins. Later we read of Apollos, another follower of John the Baptist from Alexandria (Egypt), who apparently went abroad and preached what John taught, including John's view of Jesus. In Acts 18: 24-26 we find the account: "Now a Jew named Apollos, a native of Alexandria, came to Ephesus. He was an eloquent man, well versed in the scriptures (i.e. the OT). He had been instructed in the way of the Lord; and being fervent in spirit, he spoke and taught accurately the things concerning Jesus, though he knew only the baptism of John (i.e. nothing about the baptism of the spirit so he might even have missed the whole crucifixoin and resurrection because it was both immediately before and after that Jesus promised the spirit). He began to speak boldly in the synagogue; but when Priscilla and Aq′uila heard him, they took him and expounded to him the way of God more accurately." In other words he wasn't teaching and preaching accurately. (By the way did you know there are still followers of John the Baptist?)

You could say that Peter preached a Power or Crown gospel, very similar to "hell fire preaching" while Paul came to preach a Love or Cross Gospel. But that wasn't until he realised that the cross was not a mistake that God had to correct, but the whole point of Jesus coming - to die for our sins. Previously he had been preaching the messianic gospel based on the 'traditional' Jewish interpretation of the OT. When he got his vision (probably between Athens and Corinth) he was shaken to his Jewish core - and saw immediately that it would be "a stumbling block to the Jews" (who could not possibly accept that their Messiah could/would be crucified by gentiles) and "foolishness to the gentiles" who would think it was idiocy that you could win by submitting, live by dying. This guy who up to that moment was fearless in face of stonings, whippings, mobs, and being run out of town by jealous religious leaders, or prepared to face that age's academia and cynics (at Athens) suddenly became totally silent for several days, until he was specifically told by the Lord not to be afraid ---"for I have many people in this city." Ultimately the other apostles came round to understand and accept this gospel, and that "you are saved by faith" not by works.

The New Testament shows a lot of the development of what we think of as the "gospel" today but it wasn't so from the beginning.

There are clear indications that there were divisions following the interpretations or personalities of different people:

1 Corinthians 1:11-13 (RSV)
For it has been reported to me by Chloe’s people that there is quarreling among you, my brethren. What I mean is that each one of you says, “I belong to Paul,” or “I belong to Apol′los,” or “I belong to Cephas,” or “I belong to Christ.” Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul?
 
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Presbyterian Continuist

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I can't. I'm not interested in fellowshipping here

You are free to open your mouth and preach CHRIST and HIM CRUCIFIED for THE SALVATION of all those who believe

I too was asking you questions and not arguing

But THE TRUTH is we were supposed to point all to THE DOOR
those who hear HIS VOICE will open it
"Come to me" was a different preaching from
this
Preach it sister!
 
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guibox

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No it is not a parable, real names and real situations are mentioned. Jesus does not speak fables or make up such things. Jesus spoke certain clear things in this discussion. He spoke of rich and poor and the attitudes of each and the love or lack of for others, he spoke of being conscious after death which the bible also speaks of in places. He spoke of torments of hell, which would mean nothing to any if it was not real.

First of all, yes it is a parable based on the fantastical imagery that is not supported literally anywhere else in the bible.
Second, the term for 'hell' here is 'Hades' which is 'the abode of the dead', the Greek equivalent of the Hebrew Sheol. Hades is translated EVERY OTHER TIME in the Bible to simply mean 'the grave'
Third, this is Hades, NOT Gehenna. Gehenna is the tormenting fire at the end of time, what is traditionally interpretated as 'hell'. So the parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus is NOT talking about 'eternal torment'
Fourth, the bible does NOT support the duality of man, that he has a disembodied soul that survives death, so this cannot be a 'soul of Lazarus descending to hell'
Fifth, in the parable, we have mention of physical body parts. This cannot be the 'soul' as is traditionally taught
Sixth, the crux of the matter is at the end of the passage, 'If they did not listen to Moses and all the prophets, they will not listen EVEN IF ONE ROSE FROM THE DEAD.

This whole parable was using personification and bringing the dead back to life to make a point of the stewardship the Jews had to spread the gospel.
 
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guibox

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I wanna know as well ????????

The fires that burnt Sodom and Gomorrow were eternal in their RESULTS. Notice that S&G are not burning today. This is the way the Bible uses these terms. For example, the bible mentions 'everlasting redemption'. The redemption is not a continual process. It is everlasting in its results. The same for 'unquenchable fire'. Unquenchable means that it cannot be PUT out, not that it will not eventually GO out. It cannot be quenched. Fire cannot continually burn something when everything is finite. Eventually it will go out when there is nothing left to burn, but until then it will do its work uninterrupted. Notice that in Jeremiah, the prophecy in the destruction of Jerusalem was that God would set a 'fire within its gates that cannot be quenched'. Jerusalem is not burning today.

Fire is the MOST destructive force used in the Bible. That is why it is used to cleanse the earth. To say that immortality is given to bodies so they can be perpetually burned by fire is the most horrific concept ever imposed upon the justice, love, and mercy of God. The Bible makes it clear that the wicked 'will be burnt up', will be 'consumed' into 'smoke shall they consume away', be 'destroyed', suffer 'death'. And tradition turns ALL of these terms around to mean 'kept forever alive eternally', 'never ending conscious torment' and 'spiritual death of the soul'. All of these are ridiculous misinterpretations of the nature of man and the Greek and Hebrew meanings of these terms.
 
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RDKirk

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the good news makes little sense without the bad news.

There is really only a window in which people need preaching about hell.

While unsaved, the Holy Spirit will convict them that their lives are "wrong" even before they've heard of hell.

When they are mature in their salvation, they don't need threats of hell as a motivator. Their faith and desire to emulate Christ is their motivator.

It's only immediately before and a bit of time after acceptance of Christ that they need hell-preaching.
 
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LoveofTruth

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First of all, yes it is a parable based on the fantastical imagery that is not supported literally anywhere else in the bible.

I strongly disagree with you according to scripture on many of your points.

And Jesus doesn't make up fantasies for men to imagine that are nothing to do with truth.

2 Peter 1:16
For we have not followed cunningly devised fables..."

Second, the term for 'hell' here is 'Hades' which is 'the abode of the dead', the Greek equivalent of the Hebrew Sheol. Hades is translated EVERY OTHER TIME in the Bible to simply mean 'the grave'
Third, this is Hades, NOT Gehenna. Gehenna is the tormenting fire at the end of time, what is traditionally interpretated as 'hell'. So the parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus is NOT talking about 'eternal torment'

The lake of fire is the final end for all who are in hell so I am not saying that the torment place of the dead "hell" is the final eternal place death and hell will be cast into the lake of fire.

The hell Jesus spoke of in the story was a temporary place until Jesus led captivity captive. There were two compartments in that place the paradise part and the tormented fire part or darkness and suffering.

Also Jesus is obviously referring to the place of the dead and telling us that in that place is torment as well and fire and suffering. It is very clear. Jesus is showing that that place can have different descriptions attached to it, but it is the place of the dead where they are tormented in flames.

a person can drop a dead body into the grave but no person can put a soul into Sheol or Hades/hell.

Fourth, the bible does NOT support the duality of man, that he has a disembodied soul that survives death, so this cannot be a 'soul of Lazarus descending to hell'

Again, this is not true we read of his soul in hell, as Jesus said. Why would Jesus confuse the hearers and say a man dies and goes to hell and his soul is there, if it were not so?

But we read of souls alive after death and conscious in different places here is just one example.

"9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?" Revelation 6:9,10)

Again, clear to the unbiased reader

Fifth, in the parable, we have mention of physical body parts. This cannot be the 'soul' as is traditionally taught

All we need is Jesus words that there is some type of body there. All other traditional doctrines of men are false if they go against Jesus. We also read Jesus saying these type of things,

Matthew 5:30
And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell."

Again, clear to the unbiased reader.

Sixth, the crux of the matter is at the end of the passage, 'If they did not listen to Moses and all the prophets, they will not listen EVEN IF ONE ROSE FROM THE DEAD.

This was spoken at the request to have a man go back and speak to them. Your argument does not make sense here. And when jesus rose from the dead many did not believe.

This whole parable was using personification and bringing the dead back to life to make a point of the stewardship the Jews had to spread the gospel.

No Jesus is showing the result of a man who was greedy and loved money and power and had good things in this life and the other who suffered and was righteous and that things are not as they appear to be with men. Just like this section of scripture is not as it appears to you.
 
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miknik5

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First of all, yes it is a parable based on the fantastical imagery that is not supported literally anywhere else in the bible.
Second, the term for 'hell' here is 'Hades' which is 'the abode of the dead', the Greek equivalent of the Hebrew Sheol. Hades is translated EVERY OTHER TIME in the Bible to simply mean 'the grave'
Third, this is Hades, NOT Gehenna. Gehenna is the tormenting fire at the end of time, what is traditionally interpretated as 'hell'. So the parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus is NOT talking about 'eternal torment'
Fourth, the bible does NOT support the duality of man, that he has a disembodied soul that survives death, so this cannot be a 'soul of Lazarus descending to hell'
Fifth, in the parable, we have mention of physical body parts. This cannot be the 'soul' as is traditionally taught
Sixth, the crux of the matter is at the end of the passage, 'If they did not listen to Moses as nd all the prophets, they will not listen EVEN IF ONE ROSE FROM THE DEAD.

This whole parable was using personification and bringing the dead back to life to make a point of the stewardship the Jews had to spread the gospel.
That is the crux of the matter:

If they did not listen to Moses as nd all the prophets, they will not listen EVEN IF ONE ROSE FROM THE DEAD.

For one has risen

And HE is not THE GOD of the dead

Hell..Hades..Sheol...the grave are symbolic of death and separation from GOD

Yet. Lazarus wasn't there
And neither was Abraham
 
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S.O.J.I.A.

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There is really only a window in which people need preaching about hell.

While unsaved, the Holy Spirit will convict them that their lives are "wrong" even before they've heard of hell.

When they are mature in their salvation, they don't need threats of hell as a motivator. Their faith and desire to emulate Christ is their motivator.

It's only immediately before and a bit of time after acceptance of Christ that they need hell-preaching.

an understanding of the doctrine of eternal hell makes those saved more grateful for their salvation knowing the wrath of God that they have been saved from.

the "bad news" is more than just burning in hell forever but the fact that our sinful nature in adam makes us worthy of this punishment and only the blood of Christ can save us. no one cares for a solution to a problem that no one believes exists.
 
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Solomons Porch

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an understanding of the doctrine of eternal hell makes those saved more grateful for their salvation knowing the wrath of God that they have been saved from.

the "bad news" is more than just burning in hell forever but the fact that our sinful nature in adam makes us worthy of this punishment and only the blood of Christ can save us. no one cares for a solution to a problem that no one believes exists.
VERY good point :amen:
 
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Grandpa2390

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the "bad news" is more than just burning in hell forever but the fact that our sinful nature in adam makes us worthy of this punishment and only the blood of Christ can save us. no one cares for a solution to a problem that no one believes exists.

The "worse news" is more than just burning in hell forever but that those there will be eternally separated from God.
 
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Grandpa2390

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Fourth, the bible does NOT support the duality of man, that he has a disembodied soul that survives death, so this cannot be a 'soul of Lazarus descending to hell'

Elaborate please.
 
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Grandpa2390

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Here lately I have wondered why I do not hear ANY sermons preached on hell. I grew up Pentecostal and all those years I would hear preaching on hell fire, repent and give your life to Christ. Many times I saw the Holy Spirit convict people during these sermons and they would practically run to the altar. It seems here lately and has been happening for years now that preachers no longer preach on this matter. Why has everything turned into a pretty package, tickle your ears service?? Why have we strayed away from this? The preacher used to pour out his heart to the congregation, pleading the case of Jesus to turn from the wickedness of this world for there is a heaven and there is a hell, choose today who you will serve, repent for the time is drawing near. What happened to this teaching and preaching, it seems it has all but vanished?

Hell should be preached on. I agree. But if they preached it as much as your Pentecostal church as the one I attended for 10 years, then they over did it. Preaching fire and brimstone is a tool. It is a message that needs to be heard, but if it is the only message that is ever preached, then you get only shallow conversions.
In my experience, it brought people to the altars out of fear and emotion... and then left them there. It was only the first step, but preachers only ever wanted to preach that you should convert. The other times they would preach how you need to fight the battle to win. These are good messages, but they aren't enough.

Rarely, if ever, was time dedicated to teaching the biblical truths required to grow. The tools required to grow strong and win the battles. Even among the congregation that didn't slide out of the church after a couple weeks-years, they have little to no understanding of scripture outside of the specific topics repetitively hammered on (tongues, etc).

For me, Hell is not a useful sermon. It is an important subtopic in discussing more important things like how to get saved. How to walk strong in the faith. etc.
 
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RDKirk

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an understanding of the doctrine of eternal hell makes those saved more grateful for their salvation knowing the wrath of God that they have been saved from.

I would suggest that gratitude from being saved from hell is the wrong motivation for service to Christ, and is not the motivation of the gospel as given by scripture.

The motivation of scripture is not gratitude from damnation but gratitude for the privilege of service to the risen King.

I am glad to be saved so that I can serve the King.

Oh, I also escape hell.

But more importantly, I get to serve the King.
 
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Grandpa2390

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I might also add to what I said before. A big issue with the Pentecostal cult is the emphasis placed on numbers.

It's sort of like the way a president is judged success or failure based on what he forces through (illegally) in his first few weeks. Preachers in the Pentecostal movement are judged on how many people they convert. How many people receive the Holy Ghost due to the message they preached.

The more people who convert and are saved, the better and holier they are as a preacher. And then other churches start seeking them out trying to get them to preach services at their churches.

It is for this reason that such messages are popular and make up 90% of the sermons preached. These are the messages that sell. As for the messages that actually teach the Bible... boorrrriiinnnnggggg.
Nobody has the attention span for these. They aren't interesting. People want to see action. a Preacher who wields the Holy Ghost like a Jedi. The church to be filled with the chaos of tongues, drunkenness (in the Spirit of course), and slaying (in the spirit of course).

It's all about the numbers. How many people can you get to speak in tongues. Who cares if they stop attending in a month or two.


Hell gets preached plenty. It's the only thing people want to hear about where I came from. What they don't want to hear about is what it means to be a Christian.
You tell them about the horrors of hell, AMEN!

You tell them about how Paul said to the Romans and the Corinthians that if eating meat offends your weaker brother, you are to abstain from meat to keep that brother from falling into sin... Not so happy anymore.

You get responses like "You're saying I am supposed to tiptoe around everyones feelings and not do things just because someone is sensitive? That ridiculous!"

YES! Paul said if eating meat offends my brother, I will not eat meat. Pretty simple.

If my brother is an ex-jew and eating pork offends him, I will not eat pork around him.
If my brother is an ex-alcoholic, I will not drink alcohol around him. (I don't drink, just an example).

anyways, it was/is frustrating.
 
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Solomons Porch

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I might also add to what I said before. A big issue with the Pentecostal cult is the emphasis placed on numbers.

It's sort of like the way a president is judged success or failure based on what he forces through (illegally) in his first few weeks. Preachers in the Pentecostal movement are judged on how many people they convert. How many people receive the Holy Ghost due to the message they preached.

The more people who convert and are saved, the better and holier they are as a preacher. And then other churches start seeking them out trying to get them to preach services at their churches.

It is for this reason that such messages are popular and make up 90% of the sermons preached. These are the messages that sell. As for the messages that actually teach the Bible... boorrrriiinnnnggggg.
Nobody has the attention span for these. They aren't interesting. People want to see action. a Preacher who wields the Holy Ghost like a Jedi. The church to be filled with the chaos of tongues, drunkenness (in the Spirit of course), and slaying (in the spirit of course).

It's all about the numbers. How many people can you get to speak in tongues. Who cares if they stop attending in a month or two.


Hell gets preached plenty. It's the only thing people want to hear about where I came from. What they don't want to hear about is what it means to be a Christian.
You tell them about the horrors of hell, AMEN!

You tell them about how Paul said to the Romans and the Corinthians that if eating meat offends your weaker brother, you are to abstain from meat to keep that brother from falling into sin... Not so happy anymore.

You get responses like "You're saying I am supposed to tiptoe around everyones feelings and not do things just because someone is sensitive? That ridiculous!"

YES! Paul said if eating meat offends my brother, I will not eat meat. Pretty simple.

If my brother is an ex-jew and eating pork offends him, I will not eat pork around him.
If my brother is an ex-alcoholic, I will not drink alcohol around him. (I don't drink, just an example).

anyways, it was/is frustrating.
I understand where your coming from but I don't think it's ok to call them Pentecostal cult, not all are this way, but then again you said it's where you come from. Not all are this way (some) but not all. :)
 
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Grandpa2390

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I understand where your coming from but I don't think it's ok to call them Pentecostal cult, not all are this way, but then again you said it's where you come from. Not all are this way (some) but not all. :)

to be fair. more specific. The UPC and WPF. and then the other sects of the Charismatic Movement that are like Benny Hinn, etc.

When I say Pentecostal, I am referring to these. And they are cults. I can't speak for the Pentecostal church you were/are a member of. But I can go down a list of all the reasons why these organizations are, starting with the authoritarian Pastor who places himself as a prophet and high priest in the church. and the legalism he establishes. The false doctrines that have people living their lives in fear of losing salvation and fear of questioning what the pastor says... etc.
 
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Solomons Porch

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to be fair. more specific. The UPC and WPF. and then the other sects of the Charismatic Movement that are like Benny Hinn, etc.

When I say Pentecostal, I am referring to these. And they are cults. I can't speak for the Pentecostal church you were/are a member of. But I can go down a list of all the reasons why these organizations are, starting with the authoritarian Pastor who places himself as a prophet and high priest in the church. and the legalism he establishes. The false doctrines that have people living their lives in fear of losing salvation and fear of questioning what the pastor says... etc.
I understand what you are saying truly I do. I suppose I should've named the thread, NOBODY MENTIONS HELL ANYMORE , OR IS THERE A HELL ANYMORE idk.....maybe I worded it wrong? :sorry:
 
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S.O.J.I.A.

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I would suggest that gratitude from being saved from hell is the wrong motivation for service to Christ,

it is indeed the wrong motivation for service, but it is a proper motivation for gratitude. the saved can absolutely be thankful for what they have been saved from, but their will to serve will come from the changed heart mind from the Holy Spirit.

there's a difference.
 
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S.O.J.I.A.

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The "worse news" is more than just burning in hell forever but that those there will be eternally separated from God.

kind of a distinction without a difference since separation from God is the absence of His mercies and common graces which results in unadulterated wrath and destruction.
 
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