NO MORE PREACHING ON HELL

[Original Happy Camper]

If i offended you, my apologies for our post, or (my post) to you bothered you and for that I apologize.

You cannot and have not offended me. This is a discussion and debate of the Bible Truths.

 

[D2wing]

"Elementary Dr Watson!"

In a word: the more secular the man-made "church" becomes, the more it drifts from sound doctrine; while substituting false doctrines fomented by satan into all creeds and doctrines. Oh indeed yes.

2 Timothy 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears (forgoing the truth and latching on to lies instead); 2 Timothy 4:4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

That is the reason.

Sadly, it is going to get MUCH worse. The word Hell will be illegal to say OR to preach. Mark me words, it IS coming. Jesus will be made illegal and the mere mention of His name will bring on immediate imprisonment, torcher and/or death. Oh indeed yes. They will all be dubbed "hate speech". Etc, etc, and ETC!

He prophesied all of this in so many words.

Matthew 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world
to this time, no, nor ever shall be

 

[D2wing]

I meant to reply that this is already happening. Hate speech is any thing a Christian or the Bible says pretty much. Political correctness is about ending free speech and a means of attacking Christianity.
You are not allowed to display Bible verses In a lot of places like in the military or just about any public space.

 

[dhh712]

Y

But if there are new unbelievers in THE BODY hearing this as the MESSAGE of THE GOSPEL is it for love or fear of GOD that they run to the altar?

It is God that softens the hearts and make one a believer. The preacher's job is to preach the truth, the whole counsel of God as it is revealed to us in his word. To leave out hell is to leave out a large part of what God's message is to us, and it makes God into a caricature--all mercy but no justice.

Mercy and Justice is combined perfectly by God's design in Christ's sacrifice on the cross. The entire message of the cross needs to be preached, not just the part that's easy to hear.

 

[Original Happy Camper]

Some form of punishment makes sense for a just God.

Yes it does and separation from God for eternity is it.

Rev 20
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

 

[Lepanto]

What the devil wants is church leaders stop talking about hell.
When people have no fear of hell, their sins would increase.

It's a lie that talking about hell would scare people away from churches.
It's the contrary, not talking about hell'd actually decrease church attendance -- look at how church attendance has plummeted since church leaders stopped talking about hell (since around 1970s).

 

[BukiRob]

Here lately I have wondered why I do not hear ANY sermons preached on hell. I grew up Pentecostal and all those years I would hear preaching on hell fire, repent and give your life to Christ. Many times I saw the Holy Spirit convict people during these sermons and they would practically run to the altar. It seems here lately and has been happening for years now that preachers no longer preach on this matter. Why has everything turned into a pretty package, tickle your ears service?? Why have we strayed away from this? The preacher used to pour out his heart to the congregation, pleading the case of Jesus to turn from the wickedness of this world for there is a heaven and there is a hell, choose today who you will serve, repent for the time is drawing near. What happened to this teaching and preaching, it seems it has all but vanished?

I too grew up as a young person in the 1960's and 1970's and recall many a sermon of the "fire and brimstone" variety...

2 things are at play one is good the other, very, very bad.

The bad.... preachers are too fearful of losing members as preaching is their "full-time" job.... this has caused compromise to seep into the body under the guise of being inclusive and understanding....

The good is that a small minority of beleivers have begun over the last 15-20 years to actually engage in the deeper study of scripture to test what they are being "taught" to see if it lines up with scripture.

Much of what is taught concerning hell is well, simply not accurate at all of what we find in both the Hebrew and the Greek.

Fallacy #1 the "immortal soul" Sorry not found in scripture but it IS a fairly popular pagan belief. Man is made up of a body, a soul and a spirit. If one bothers to study what the patriarchs believed (as seen in scripture) we find absolutely no concepts that modern Christians whole heartedly believe.. that is that as the believer you die and go to heaven as an unrepentant sinner you go to hell.... The patriarchs and those who were alive during Messiah's ministry believed the following... you lived served Adonai and eventually you died and went to the grave (interestingly translated in many texts as hell. Sheol) This is where you stayed until the resurrection.

In fact we find Yeshua saying the following: John 3:13 "No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man.

This certainly supports the OT view. Many will try and cite Yeshua's words to the thief as proof that we go to heaven. There is a massive problem with this verse particularly since the original Greek does not apply punctuation. Luke 23:43 And He said to him, "Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise."

As it is parsed out with punctuation it certainly appears that Yeshua is telling him TODAY when you die you will be in paradise...

However, move the comma over from you to today and the meaning entirely changes and it is now consistent with the rest of scripture... And He said to him, "Truly I say to you today, you shall be with Me in Paradise."

More importantly it deals with other things that make no sense if most believers are already in heaven upon Messiahs return. Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep. 15 For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord,4 that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.

So if we are already with Messiah in heaven then why do we need to be raised? Its neither logical nor rational... what is logical and rational is that we stay in the grave until we are raised as was the believe from Abraham until well past the Apostolic age.

Which brings us to the eternal conscious torment doctrine of hell. This too is not scriptural. What IS scriptural is the second death. Now, call me crazy but when you are dead, you are not aware of anything and here too scripture speaks about this... PS 6:5 For there is no mention of You in death; In Sheol who will give You thanks?
Is 38:18"For Sheol cannot thank You, Death cannot praise You; Those who go down to the pit cannot hope for Your faithfulness.
PS 30:9 "What profit is there in my blood, if I go down to the pit? Will the dust praise You? Will it declare Your faithfulness?
PS 115:17 The dead do not praise the LORD, Nor do any who go down into silence;
Ecc 9:5 For the living know they will die; but the dead do not know anything, nor have they any longer a reward, for their memory is forgotten.

We are told that those whose names are not found in the book of life are cast into the Lake of Fire which is called the SECOND DEATH.

Paul tells us that we when we are raised "must put on" Immortality.... well, if we must put it on it is because we do not posses Immortality innately.

So then, those who are raised at the second resurrection will NOT put on immortality and when they are casts into the LOF they die a second time and they are utterly consumed until nothing of them remains. The PUNISHMENT I.E. The second death is ETERNAL but they are not any more conscious than when they died the first time.

The moment brain activity stops at death until you are raised will from YOUR perspective seem like less than a nano second. Time is a constraint of mortals who are alive. Time stops at the moment of death for the person who has passed.

 

[BukiRob]

Some form of punishment makes sense for a just God.

So do you consider the death penalty on earth to be a rather severe form of punishment here? I dont know of ANYONE who doesnt....

Likewise, isn't a death penalty where you are FOREVER cut off a severe punishment? We were created to be with the Father FOREVER. Seems to me about as severe as it gets is to be killed and denied to see the wonders that "eye has not seen nor has ear heard those things which G-d has planned for those who love Him.”

 

[LoveofTruth]

Here lately I have wondered why I do not hear ANY sermons preached on hell. I grew up Pentecostal and all those years I would hear preaching on hell fire, repent and give your life to Christ. Many times I saw the Holy Spirit convict people during these sermons and they would practically run to the altar. It seems here lately and has been happening for years now that preachers no longer preach on this matter. Why has everything turned into a pretty package, tickle your ears service?? Why have we strayed away from this? The preacher used to pour out his heart to the congregation, pleading the case of Jesus to turn from the wickedness of this world for there is a heaven and there is a hell, choose today who you will serve, repent for the time is drawing near. What happened to this teaching and preaching, it seems it has all but vanished?

Hell is an absolute reality for many on the broad road and they will be going there unless they repent and believe the gospel. To tell someone of where their sin will lead them and the horrible eternal damnation of that and to make them aware of why God will punish the evil and yet in his grace and mercy and love he offers a way out in jesus Christ through the gospel is proper preaching.

Im sure many in hell today wish they had someone warn them of that place and the judgement of eternal everlasting fire and regret. And show them why they had to go there and Gods holiness and law that they broke, then to offer them the free gift of salvation through repentance and faith. But now it is too late for them. So lets go out and warn others and preach the good news. Sadly many will not see a need for the good news unless they know the bad news. They do not see a need for the doctor if they think they are not sick.

 

[Original Happy Camper]

Im sure many in hell today

Your statement is not Biblical unless you are referring to the grave.

 

[BukiRob]

Hell is an absolute reality for many on the broad road and they will be going there unless they repent and believe the gospel. To tell someone of where their sin will lead them and the horrible eternal damnation of that and to make them aware of why God will punish the evil and yet in his grace and mercy and love he offers a way out in jesus Christ through the gospel is proper preaching.

Im sure many in hell today wish they had someone warn them of that place and the judgement of eternal everlasting fire and regret. And show them why they had to go there and Gods holiness and law that they broke, then to offer them the free gift of salvation through repentance and faith. But now it is too late for them. So lets go out and warn others and preach the good news. Sadly many will not see a need for the good news unless they know the bad news. They do not see a need for the doctor if they think they are not sick.

Ask yourself an honest question. What is more important to you? TRUTH or Doctrine?

In Hebrew the words translated into english has Hell is three different words (Thats the first clue that the doctrine of hell has a problem)

Sheol - Which is the grave. In the OT the ONLY word found translated as Hell is Sheol.

Sheol appears in the Hebrew 65 times and it means the grave but its literal translation is the pit

Greek has 3 words translated as hell....

Hades, Gehenna and Tartarus

Hades is found 11 times and means like Sheol the grave.

Tartarus is only used 1 time and it is where the wicked fallen angles are bound until the judgement day of Messiah

Gehenna is found in the NT 12 times: Gehenna takes its name from a valley located in Jerusalem called the Valley of Hinnom. During Jesus’s time on earth, this valley was used as the city dump. A fire was constantly kept alight there to burn up and consume all of the city’s unwanted rubbish.

It is Yeshua Himself who uses the Greek word gehenna 11 out of the 12 times that gehenna occurs in the Bible.

This is the Lake of Fire. Scripture tells us that those who are cast into the Lake of Fire undergo the second DEATH. If you are dead, you're dead. You, every bit of you is utterly, totally consumed until nothing remains of you FOREVER. The punishment is eternal... just like a death sentence on earth is permanent.

I do not know of anyone who would even begin to suggest that a sentence of death is anything but the most severe form of punishment a criminal can receive.

 

[sparow]

Good question, I think interfaith, sinners and lgbtq community is playing a role on where the pastor wants people of all backgrounds to feel welcomed.

I'm a new Christian, so I would love to hear others thoughts on this.

Hell is an unfortunate word that should not be in the Bible because it conjures up wrong concepts; hell is usually linked to Greek mysticism and I doubt they used the word hell; way back, hell was an English word for hole, but not any hole but a hole six feet deep; used for cold storage of potatoes and as graves.

In the NT two words are translated hell; Gehenna and Hades; Geenna was a rubbish tip on the outskirts of Jerusalem where rubbish was burned, including animal carcases and the bodies of people who could not afford a normal funeral; Jesus described Geenna as a place littered with wormwood where the worm dieth not; I have never understood the teaching in that which seems to be a contradiction (wormwood was used to treat intestinal worms). Hades is the name of the Greek mystical underworld and Hades is the God of the underworld, which in my opinion is not Biblical; sheol is Biblical and is used in the Septuagint instead of Hades; there is nothing demonic about sheol.

 

[rjs330]

Meh, some prefer to use fear and anger to bring a person to submission, and some prefer to use love and grace to bring a person to salvation.

Yeah just like Jesus did. Apparently you feel that Jesus shouldn't have spoken about hell either.

 

[LoveofTruth]

Your statement is not Biblical unless you are referring to the grave.

no I am referring to the place of torment and fire as in Jesus words about lazarus and the rich man. It is a real place where the departed spirits go when they die. The body sleeps in the grave but their spirits are in hell. They are conscious after death.

But this is not the post for that long talk, Im sure many have discussed your ideas about hell in other post

 

[LoveofTruth]

Ask yourself an honest question. What is more important to you? TRUTH or Doctrine?

In Hebrew the words translated into english has Hell is three different words (Thats the first clue that the doctrine of hell has a problem)

Sheol - Which is the grave. In the OT the ONLY word found translated as Hell is Sheol.

Sheol appears in the Hebrew 65 times and it means the grave but its literal translation is the pit

Greek has 3 words translated as hell....

Hades, Gehenna and Tartarus

Hades is found 11 times and means like Sheol the grave.

Tartarus is only used 1 time and it is where the wicked fallen angles are bound until the judgement day of Messiah

Gehenna is found in the NT 12 times: Gehenna takes its name from a valley located in Jerusalem called the Valley of Hinnom. During Jesus’s time on earth, this valley was used as the city dump. A fire was constantly kept alight there to burn up and consume all of the city’s unwanted rubbish.

It is Yeshua Himself who uses the Greek word gehenna 11 out of the 12 times that gehenna occurs in the Bible.

This is the Lake of Fire. Scripture tells us that those who are cast into the Lake of Fire undergo the second DEATH. If you are dead, you're dead. You, every bit of you is utterly, totally consumed until nothing remains of you FOREVER. The punishment is eternal... just like a death sentence on earth is permanent.

I do not know of anyone who would even begin to suggest that a sentence of death is anything but the most severe form of punishment a criminal can receive.

The hell I refer to is the tormented place that Jesus spoke of for the rich man, in flames and torment, wailing and gnashing of teeth

 

[rjs330]

Torture for eternity, does that make sense for a Loving God?

It makes sense for a just God. Who are we to judge God and his ways. His judgement are righteous and true whether we think so or not.

 

[rjs330]

I too grew up as a young person in the 1960's and 1970's and recall many a sermon of the "fire and brimstone" variety...

2 things are at play one is good the other, very, very bad.

The bad.... preachers are too fearful of losing members as preaching is their "full-time" job.... this has caused compromise to seep into the body under the guise of being inclusive and understanding....

The good is that a small minority of beleivers have begun over the last 15-20 years to actually engage in the deeper study of scripture to test what they are being "taught" to see if it lines up with scripture.

Much of what is taught concerning hell is well, simply not accurate at all of what we find in both the Hebrew and the Greek.

Fallacy #1 the "immortal soul" Sorry not found in scripture but it IS a fairly popular pagan belief. Man is made up of a body, a soul and a spirit. If one bothers to study what the patriarchs believed (as seen in scripture) we find absolutely no concepts that modern Christians whole heartedly believe.. that is that as the believer you die and go to heaven as an unrepentant sinner you go to hell.... The patriarchs and those who were alive during Messiah's ministry believed the following... you lived served Adonai and eventually you died and went to the grave (interestingly translated in many texts as hell. Sheol) This is where you stayed until the resurrection.

In fact we find Yeshua saying the following: John 3:13 "No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man.

This certainly supports the OT view. Many will try and cite Yeshua's words to the thief as proof that we go to heaven. There is a massive problem with this verse particularly since the original Greek does not apply punctuation. Luke 23:43 And He said to him, "Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise."

As it is parsed out with punctuation it certainly appears that Yeshua is telling him TODAY when you die you will be in paradise...

However, move the comma over from you to today and the meaning entirely changes and it is now consistent with the rest of scripture... And He said to him, "Truly I say to you today, you shall be with Me in Paradise."

More importantly it deals with other things that make no sense if most believers are already in heaven upon Messiahs return. Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep. 15 For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord,4 that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.

So if we are already with Messiah in heaven then why do we need to be raised? Its neither logical nor rational... what is logical and rational is that we stay in the grave until we are raised as was the believe from Abraham until well past the Apostolic age.

Which brings us to the eternal conscious torment doctrine of hell. This too is not scriptural. What IS scriptural is the second death. Now, call me crazy but when you are dead, you are not aware of anything and here too scripture speaks about this... PS 6:5 For there is no mention of You in death; In Sheol who will give You thanks?
Is 38:18"For Sheol cannot thank You, Death cannot praise You; Those who go down to the pit cannot hope for Your faithfulness.
PS 30:9 "What profit is there in my blood, if I go down to the pit? Will the dust praise You? Will it declare Your faithfulness?
PS 115:17 The dead do not praise the LORD, Nor do any who go down into silence;
Ecc 9:5 For the living know they will die; but the dead do not know anything, nor have they any longer a reward, for their memory is forgotten.

We are told that those whose names are not found in the book of life are cast into the Lake of Fire which is called the SECOND DEATH.

Paul tells us that we when we are raised "must put on" Immortality.... well, if we must put it on it is because we do not posses Immortality innately.

So then, those who are raised at the second resurrection will NOT put on immortality and when they are casts into the LOF they die a second time and they are utterly consumed until nothing of them remains. The PUNISHMENT I.E. The second death is ETERNAL but they are not any more conscious than when they died the first time.

The moment brain activity stops at death until you are raised will from YOUR perspective seem like less than a nano second. Time is a constraint of mortals who are alive. Time stops at the moment of death for the person who has passed.

This is not the place to talk about this. It's not the topic. That being said you are in error. The Bible does speak of the immortal soul and it does speak of eternal hell as a punishment. It IS biblical. But I go no further in this in this thread.

 

[BeStill&Know]

Here lately I have wondered why I do not hear ANY sermons preached on hell. I grew up Pentecostal and all those years I would hear preaching on hell fire, repent and give your life to Christ. Many times I saw the Holy Spirit convict people during these sermons and they would practically run to the altar. It seems here lately and has been happening for years now that preachers no longer preach on this matter. Why has everything turned into a pretty package, tickle your ears service?? Why have we strayed away from this? The preacher used to pour out his heart to the congregation, pleading the case of Jesus to turn from the wickedness of this world for there is a heaven and there is a hell, choose today who you will serve, repent for the time is drawing near. What happened to this teaching and preaching, it seems it has all but vanished?

ALL I listen to still preach on hell demons satan ..............

 

[John Hyperspace]

Good riddance. It is a dispicable doctrine (I am meaning the commonly taught doctrine of an "eternal suffering 'hell'"). It has virtually no support in scripture; what miniscual "support" it does have is based on taking parables and symbolism literally, then applying a "never ending" which isn't in scripture at all; mixed with a heaping helping of terrible translation and even more terrible man-inspired backward ethical philosophy.

What I dislike most about it, is what it does to the character of God. If the doctrine is false (and I maintain that it is) then it is probably the most blasphemous doctrine imaginable. "Blasphemy" meaning "to injure the name/fame/reputation"; which this doctrine certainly does to an unimaginable extreme. Everyone preaching/teaching it had better hope to God that it is true (even though it probably isn't) or else they are guilty of terrible blasphemy against God.

To my mind, if you wish to fear-monger, go with "eternal death/annihilation" because it's a much safer doctrine and not as blasphemous as "eternal suffering". What amazes me the most is that many people either cannot comprehend the ramifications of what the doctrine means if it is false; the ramifications of such potentially blasphemous teachings never enter into their minds.

It's a Pascal's Wager of sorts, in which a sane person would entirely avoid teaching such a doctrine to steer clear of possibly blaspheming God to such a degree. If you don't teach the doctrine at all, you can never be guilty of blasphemy; but if you teach it, you may well in the end be found guilty of highly blasphemous doctrine. Why not do the wise thing and avoid the scenario of potentially great blasphemy altogether? Annihilation doctrine (which to my mind is still a little blasphemous, but not even remotely reaching the status of "God will make people suffer forever for not understanding correctly" doctrine) would be a far less risky "fear mongering"

But I think there is something about the eternal suffering doctrine that some people love; to think that others who disagree with them will be punished for all of time for their disagreements. Yet the ramifications are so disconcerting. If there is actually endless suffering for most of humanity; then we are left with an eternity that contains a relatively small amount of people praising God, and a huge group of people cursing God for all of time. Imagine that ending: God being cursed by the great majority of His creation for all of time. It's twisted beyond belief. How can anyone believe any of this awful doctrine, let alone teach it?

 

[Original Happy Camper]

They are conscious after death.

Scripture to support this please