No Account from the Dead?

[FireDragon76]

Well its is understandable for human beings to pick up things based on their situation. Israel knew nothing about making alters of golden calfs, that is a practice they picked up from Egypt. My trouble is that we're supposed to base our beliefs strictly on what the bible says and not on influence from heathen religions.

There was no Bible back then. Just scrolls, and we don't even have the originals of those. The Old Testament we have now wasn't redacted until after Babylonian captivity.

 

[paul becke]

One thing that I just thought of reading your comment: when they say they see Jesus, does Jesus look like how he's commonly depicted (a European-acceptable version of him that probably didn't look like how he actually did), or closer to how he likely actually looked?

My recollection is that they tend to say that he did not actually identify himself, but that they just knew it was him. Again, to the best of my recollection, the ones that describe him pictorially, other than as a being of light, an extraordinarily bright light, which nevertheless is not harsh, is but curiously soft. I think they mention his bare feet and a robe.

It appears to be a kind of ante-room to Heaven - the location in Purgatory that is Paradise (to which the Good Thief went, when he died), just outside the gates of heaven itself. Some of them are told that if they choose to go through that gate, then they will not be able to return to their body on earth, their family and life, etc, down here. Also, that they will only be able to make out Jesus' facial features once they enter that gate of Heaven.

 

[PROPHECYKID]

My recollection is that they tend to say that he did not actually identify himself, but that they just knew it was him. Again, to the best of my recollection, the ones that describe him pictorially, other than as a being of light, an extraordinarily bright light, which nevertheless is not harsh, is but curiously soft. I think they mention his bare feet and a robe.

It appears to be a kind of ante-room to Heaven - the location in Purgatory that is Paradise (to which the Good Thief went, when he died), just outside the gates of heaven itself. Some of them are told that if they choose to go through that gate, then they will not be able to return to their body on earth, their family and life, etc, down here. Also, that they will only be able to make out Jesus' facial features once they enter that gate of Heaven.

And this information came from where?

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[PROPHECYKID]

What do you think about the various locations
listed in Revelation 5:3? Who is under the earth location
listed?

I don't think the intent of this verse is to say that there are men in every location that tried to open the book. I believe its simply an expression to state that it was impossible for anyone else but Jesus to open the book.

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[PROPHECYKID]

The strong angel had to go to those locations, as
he is the reason that John later refers to another
mighty angel that came down.

Revelation is not a book to be interpreted literally. Also, John was shown visions. You need to get the message behind the visions and not read things into the text that was not the point of the text.

Revelation also says there are 4 angels at the 4 corners of the earth holding back the winds of strife. Do you really think there are literal angels at the 4 corners of the earth holding back literal winds that bring strife with them or are we just to understand that there will be a period of tribulation and strife to come and right now God is holding it back.

 

[now faith]

Solomon was writing Eccl. as a warning that man
will be judged for his works done under the sun.
When he dies.....his thoughts perish. The thoughts
....plans..were ones he had as to actions on earth before
he died. Those thoughts perish. Not the ability to think
after death perishes.

James: 2. 26. For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

If the body is without Spirit ,then where is the Spirit when we die?

 

[PROPHECYKID]

James: 2. 26. For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

If the body is without Spirit ,then where is the Spirit when we die?

Ecc 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Luk 23:46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

Act 7:59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.
Act 7:60 And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.

As the bible clearly shows, the spirit returns to God. I'll throw this verse in.
Joh 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

Jesus's spirit went back to God, but Jesus did not ascend yet to his father because the spirit without a body is dead. Man cannot be alive if the spirit is separated from the body.

 

[SistrNChrist]

The story of the rich man and lazarus doesn't strike me as something that should be taken literally. Many of the parables that Jesus told were not events that actually happened, but it was to bring out a point. There was never a literal wedding with a bridgeroom at midnight with 5 wise and 5 foolish virgins. Why do we then take this story completely literal. I don't see it that way.

Exactly. The parables were completely fictitious stories where Jesus used elements that were familiar to the 1st century Jews to make a point about the kingdom of God, and should never be taken as literal events that happened.

 

[PROPHECYKID]

Exactly. The parables were completely fictitious stories where Jesus used elements that were familiar to the 1st century Jews to make a point about the kingdom of God, and should never be taken as literal events that happened.

Finally someone else who sees this. I thought it was me alone.

It is funny how no one ever uses any other story literally as something that literally happened but when it comes to this one suddenly it is literal. Back in those days the belief was that the rich had a better chance of salvation. The Jews obviously revered Abraham. They believed that people who were sick and poor were like that as a result of sin or a curse and they would be least likely to make it into God's kingdom. Plus, Lazarus was a begger which made it even worse. Jesus shows that in the end the person who they all assumed would be lost is the person who is seem closer to Abraham, more of a child of Abraham than the rich jew who they all saw as being above everyone else.

This is what Jesus said a couple of verses earlier before telling this story:
Luk 16:15 And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.

The rich man in this story represented the pharisees. The pharisees looked down on the poor and destitute. The considered themselves more fit for the kingdom than anyone else. They were justified in their own eyes. This is also how they were viewed by the people as well. They were people of high prestige but their hearts were very far from God. God in this parable was showing them the reality that they in fact were heading to hell and the people they looked down on in society who were desperate to just be able to see Jesus would be recognized as the actual children of Abraham and be saved in the kingdom.

Jesus did not tell this parable out of the blue because he suddenly wanted everybody to know what happens when you die. That would serve no purpose given the context of the entire conversation

 

[now faith]

Ecc 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Luk 23:46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

Act 7:59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.
Act 7:60 And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.

As the bible clearly shows, the spirit returns to God. I'll throw this verse in.
Joh 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

Jesus's spirit went back to God, but Jesus did not ascend yet to his father because the spirit without a body is dead. Man cannot be alive if the spirit is separated from the body.

There are Spirits in Hell,and our Lord was walking around in Hell victorious over death ,hell and the grave.
He wasn't sleeping he was preaching:

1 Peter: 3. 18. For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: 19. By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; 20. Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. 21. The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ: 22. Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.

The moment He died His Spirit quickened his mortal body,into God once again.
Christ was not a sinner ,he did not suffer in Hell He defeated it.
Christ was the sacrifice for our sin,He knew no sin.
It was finished after he asended to the Father and sprinkled his blood on the mercy seat.

Soul sleep is false.
There are people this day going to Hell or Paradise, just like Christ told the theif on the Cross this day you will be with me in paradise.
It was not a figure of speech ,it was a promise from Christ.

 

[now faith]

Exactly. The parables were completely fictitious stories where Jesus used elements that were familiar to the 1st century Jews to make a point about the kingdom of God, and should never be taken as literal events that happened.

Who told you this?
Considering God is Omnipresent do you think He did not see the examples in the parables?
Does God spin yarns or tell tall tales?
Is God a liar for the sake of metaphorical ruse?

 

[now faith]

It's unbelievable that one would call God a liar to support a man made belief.
Of course they do not belive the Rich man in Hell because that contradicts the made up nonsense of soul sleep.

 

[now faith]

This entire thread is supposition,and a supposition is a theroy based on ignorance of fact.

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[SistrNChrist]

Who told you this?
Considering God is Omnipresent do you think He did not see the examples in the parables?
Does God spin yarns or tell tall tales?
Is God a liar for the sake of metaphorical ruse?

I am not calling God a liar, so kindly stop putting words in my mouth and making me out to be anti Christian. What I am saying, and perhaps my statement didn't come out as I intended it to, is that, by definition, a parable is when you use known elements to illustrate/explain something that is unknown, which is what Jesus was doing. For example, with the parable of the prodigal son, it really doesn't matter if the father and two sons existed or not, because the real point of that parable was for Jesus to illustrate to the listeners, and to those of us that are reading it, how God restores those of us that have wandered away from Him and later come back to the fold.

 

[JackRT]

We must also ask just to what extent these accounts are symbolic rather than literal in nature.

 

[SistrNChrist]

We must also ask just to what extent these accounts are symbolic rather than literal in nature.

That's true, because if you look at the Bible as a whole, there are some parts that should be taken literally and at face value, while other parts have a lot of symbolism mixed in with literal events (the book of Revelation being an example of the latter), so we really should use discernment to not accidentally take things literally that were always intended to be taken symbolically.