New Poll Shows 48% White Evangelicals Would Support Kavanaugh Even If He Assaulted Ford

[FireDragon76]

Looking at the poll questions and results it looks as if white evangelicals are split as opposed to along party lines.

That’s interesting.

Perhaps on the whole, they simply don't have as strong feelings on this subject as other demographics?

 

[redleghunter]

Perhaps on the whole, they simply don't have as strong feelings on this subject as other demographics?

There was a decent portion of all polled who did not pay attention to the story. But those who are party partisans did.

Poll data was interesting showing how polarized the nation is. It seems there is huge trust issues on both sides where each does not believe anything coming from the other.

That’s sad.

 

[Sketcher]

Perfect! I was right! The American Evangelical Christian does not, in fact, use their Christian discernment when it comes to an "R" behind a name.

Thankfully, I DID see it was a small sample size and I DESPERATELY hope and pray that it would not be the truth of the matter.

Less than half of them, you mean.

 

[redleghunter]

What do you think the results should have been? Why do you think this poll i s about confirmation bias and outrage? You really should not be surprised that the political agenda of the Christian Right is more important to them than the misbehavior of the President or his court nominations. No "outrage," just facts.

Good questions which elicit a few comments. The poll questioned 997 adults from all walks of life. How many of the 997 were white Evangelicals or any Evangelicals is unknown. However without that info I cannot question their results. But it is interesting the poll singled out one faith group. Why Roman Catholics were not mentioned is surprising since Kavanaugh is Catholic. He’s also Jesuit educated as this Bible thumping Evangelical happens to be.

For any Christian regardless of denomination or affiliation who holds to the Holy Scriptures as Holy Spirit inspired words of God, should vote in a poll zero supporting the nomination of BK if Ms Ford’s allegations are corroborated and substantiated. Here’s why.

Deuteronomy 19: NASB
15A lone witness is not sufficient to establish any wrongdoing or sin against a man, regardless of what offense he may have committed. A matter must be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.

16If a false witness testifies against someone, accusing him of a crime,17both parties to the dispute must stand in the presence of the LORD, before the priests and judges who are in office at that time. 18The judges shall investigate thoroughly, and if the witness is proven to be a liar who has falsely accused his brother, 19you must do to him as he intended to do to his brother.

And in the New Testament confirmed by the Apostle:

2 Corinthians 13: NASB
1This is the third time I am coming to you. “Every matter must be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.”

This is the very meaning of corroboration and substantiation. It is also seen in Roman law as we see in Acts chapters 21-23 where the Apostle Paul is dragged out into the streets for mob “justice” to be rescued by Roman soldiers so they could determine the accusations against him and for him to face his accusers with his defense.

Also those who have read the Bible would remember Joseph as a house slave for an Egyptian official was accused of attempted rape and was immediately thrown in jail on the word of the wife of the official.

Genesis 39: NASB
6So Potiphar left all that he owned in care; he did not concern himself with anything except the food he ate.

Now Joseph was well-built and handsome, 7and after some time his master’s wife cast her eyes on Joseph and said, “Sleep with me.”

8But he refused. “Look,” he said to his master’s wife, “with me here, my master does not concern himself with anything in his house, and he has entrusted everything he owns to my care. 9No one in this house is greater than I am. He has withheld nothing from me except you, because you are his wife. So how could I do such a great evil and sin against God?”

10Although Potiphar’s wife spoke to Joseph day after day, he refused to go to bed with her or be with her. 11One day, however, Joseph went into the house to attend to his work, and not a single household servant was inside. 12She grabbed Joseph by his cloak and said, “Sleep with me!” But leaving his garment in her hand, he escaped and ran outside.

13When she saw that he had left his cloak in her hand and had run out of the house,14she called her household servants. “Look,” she said, “this Hebrew has been brought to us to make sport of us. He came to me so he could sleep with me, but I screamed as loud as I could.15When he heard me scream for help, he left his cloak beside me and ran out of the house.”

16So Potiphar’s wife kept Joseph’s garment beside her until his master came home. 17Then she told him the same story: “The Hebrew slave you brought us came to me to make sport of me, 18but when I screamed for help, he left his cloak beside me and ran out of the house.”

19When his master heard the story his wife told him, saying, “This is what your slave did to me,” he burned with anger.20So Joseph’s master took him and had him thrown into the prison where the king’s prisoners were confined.

Seems the human condition and in many cases due process has not changed in thousands of years.

Therefore, Christians should be looking to the Holy Spirit inspired Scriptures which are profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work. (2 Timothy 3:16-17)

Which means the poll should be zero for confirmation if Ms Ford’s accusation is substantiated.

 

[CRAZY_CAT_WOMAN]

New Poll Shows 48% White Evangelicals Would Support Kavanaugh Even If He Assaulted Ford


Members of our Church do not hold another's past against them.

Very forgiving.

For all have sinned.

M-Bob

If he did it, Then he's lying about it. So he would be still sinning. But my guess is most Conservative Christians don't care much about rape. They would be more outraged if he was gay .

 

[AbbaLove]

Therefore, for anyone to blithely talk as though there is no question but that Kavanaugh is quilty...is unconscionable.

Just because she is a Democrat is no reason to blame the woman victim as a liar. It's very possible both are lying to some extent to fortify the integrity of their own character. The more important question may be: Who's the bigger liar?

What i don't quite understand is why Kavanaugh had to make such a big deal about his preference for beer back then and still now. It's quite possible he was so drunk he has convinced himself that he has no remembrance of his debauchery. His response to Senator Amy Klobuchar was reprehensible for someone being considered for a seat on the Supreme Court.

FWIW the woman from his college may very well be telling the truth. Deborah Ramirez, a Yale classmate of Brett Kavanaugh’s, has described a dormitory party gone awry and a drunken incident that she wants the F.B.I. to investigate. Again it's possible that Kavanaugh was so drunk that he has no recollection of the sexual indecency that would be considered a sexual assault.

Senate Democrats Investigate a New Allegation of Sexual Misconduct, from the Supreme Court Nominee Brett Kavanaugh’s College Years​

If both versions by Ford and Ramirez were true do you still believe Kavanaugh should be confirmed as a Judge on the Supreme Court? FWIW i'm a conservative Republican having voted for Bush as well as Trump.

 

[hedrick]

Just because she is a Democrat is no reason to blame the woman victim as a liar. It's very possible both are lying to some extent to fortify the integrity of their own character. The more important question may be: Who's the bigger liar?

I've also seen comments by people familiar with this kind of investigation that it's possible they're both telling the truth. Ford is right about what happened, but Kavanaugh was sufficiently affected by alcohol that he doesn't remember it.

 

[AbbaLove]

Several other classmates said that they believed Debbie Ramirez to be credible and honest, and vouched for her integrity. James Roche was roommates with Kavanaugh at the time of the alleged incident and is now the C.E.O. of a software company in San Francisco. “Debbie and I became close friends shortly after we both arrived at Yale,” he said. “She stood out as being exceptionally honest and gentle. I cannot imagine her making this up.” He said that he never witnessed Kavanaugh engage in any sexual misconduct, but did recall him being “frequently, incoherently drunk.” He described Ramirez as a vulnerable outsider. “Is it believable that she was alone with a wolfy group of guys who thought it was funny to sexually torment a girl like Debbie? Yeah, definitely. Is it believable that Kavanaugh was one of them? Yes.” Another acquaintance from college, Jennifer Klaus, similarly said that she considered the allegation plausible, adding, “Debbie’s always been a very truthful, kind—almost to the point of being selfless—individual.” A third classmate, who Ramirez thought had attended the party, said that she was not present at the incident. The former student, who asked not to be named, said that she also found Ramirez credible.

Former students described an atmosphere at Yale at the time in which alcohol-fuelled parties often led to behavior similar to that described by Ramirez. “I believe it could have happened,” another classmate who knew both Kavanaugh and Ramirez said. Though she was not aware of Kavanaugh being involved in any specific misconduct, she recalled that heavy drinking was routine and that Ramirez was sometimes victimized and taunted by male students in his social circle. “They were always, like, ‘Debbie’s here!,’ and then they’d get into their ‘Lord of the Flies’ thing,” she said. While at Yale, Kavanaugh became a member of the Delta Kappa Epsilon fraternity, or “dke,” which several students said was known for its wild and, in the view of some critics, misogynistic parties. Kavanaugh was also a member of an all-male secret society, Truth and Courage, which was popularly known by a rude nickname.​

Above excerpts from a lengthy article about Ramirez and Kavanaugh while at Yale ... Senate Democrats Investigate a New Allegation of Sexual Misconduct, from the Supreme Court Nominee Brett Kavanaugh’s College Years

My impression of Dr. Ford's testimony (watched the entire several hour proceeding) was that i could easily envision 15 year old Ford as also vulnerable like that of Ramirez ... see highlighted portion above.

 

[Aldebaran]

What makes it "sensational?" It just confirms something we've known for a long time. Trump took conservative Evangelicals to the top of a high mountain and showed them a conservative Court which would overturn Roe v. Wade, Obergefell v. Hodges, Engel v. Vitale and maybe even Brown v. Board. Now their souls belong to him.

Most of the time when people vote for someone to be in an elected position, it's the policies that the person goes by that gets them into that position because that's what the voter is most interested in.

For example, if you have a Republican who says he wants to uphold gun rights, limit abortion, stand up for the rights of people to live by their religious beliefs, etc. and has been accused of being drunk in college and groping women there they would most likely get the vote of people who are concerned with those areas I mentioned. If their opponent was a democrat who wanted to expand abortion access, ban all guns, force pastors to conduct marriages between gay people, etc., it's unlikely they would get that vote even if they were a nicer person with no allegations of drunkenness and abuse.

The reason is because elected positions don't exist for nice people to occupy. They are governmental positions of power for people to decide the direction of the country/state/city in regards to how people live in relation to their freedom, finances, etc.

 

[Revealing Times]

The "Have you stopped beating your wife yet?" line of attack really does not deserve a reply IMO.

I wonder why the Liberal Media never does a poll to ask how many would support Mrs Ford even if she's lying, you know like they supported Bill Clinton when he molested an intern.

Psstttt, here is what you need to know, most common sense people know she's lying, because no genuine person would try to ruin a man's life because of something a 17 year old did whilst in High School, and even the Municipality involved stated the said happening would have been a Misdemeanor at the time with a ONE YEAR Statute of Limitations. She only cares about the Supreme Court because the "CRAZIES" can't stand a judge reading the constitution as written, God forbid, they want a fruitcake on the court to make the constitution have a DEEPER MEANING !! (LOL)

So those 48 percent are correct, even if a 17 year old in 1982 tried to make a pass at a 15 year old girl, I don't think he tried to rape her, but the truth is, it never happened, because she's a liar. no one agrees with her on anything. But don't let the facts get in your way.

 

[Veritas]

Yeah, and in another poll 100% of pink hat wearing feminists and liberal democrats believe Ford, even if she lied.

 

[Veritas]

I take comfort in knowing that younger evangelicals are far more progressive than their elders. It is my hope that they will lead their parents into a new understanding of the gospel message of Jesus--one of love and compassion.

I admire the young evangelicals who stay connected to the churches of their youth, warts and all. I know if I had grown up as an evangelical I would have had great difficulty accepting their positions on many social justice issues.

I grew up Catholic and spent much of my twenties away from church--but Catholicism is very monolithic and patriarchal. It's difficult for laypeople to make a real difference. The good thing about evangelical churches is their independence. Young people can make a difference much more easily.

Pretty sure the evangelicalism of the elders is "one of love and compassion".

 

[Veritas]

Here's another scenario (example) of man's flawed logic ...​

Kavanaugh (under sworn oath) says he is "100%" sure it wasn't him. Is it not possible his logic is flawed if implying that "the devil made me do it" (Flip Wilson). In other words if he wasn't so drunk (not of right mind) the debauchery would never have occurred. In other words when in his right mind he never would have committed such an utterly odious and wicked act as an immature 17 year old teenager. And yet if he believes that is a justifiable excuse (100% sure), IMO he is not fit to be confirmed.

Debauchery: excessive indulgence in sensual pleasures.
​

It was reported this past Thursday that by July Trump had referred to Kavanaugh as a "Bushie Judge" and that a reporter said he may have actually preferred Amy Coney Barrett who was on his short list. It's possible he just decided to go with a "Good Ol Boy" that the Republican establishment preferred. FWIW i consider myself a conservative Republican.

Or...knowing the democrats he threw Kavanaugh up as a pawn.

 

[Veritas]

If he did it, Then he's lying about it. So he would be still sinning. But my guess is most Conservative Christians don't care much about rape. They would be more outraged if he was gay .

Did you really just say this?

 

[Fantine]

I don't think it's so much that they think he's lying. There are plenty of women out there who are still comfortable with patriarchy, a world ruled by men where what happens outside the front door stays outside the front door as long as that paycheck comes home regularly.

In a society stratified by class, it's not considered abnormal that frat boys will be frat boys and that it's OK to sow wild oats.

 

[jgarden]

If its a choice between the smear being pedaled by that political cartoon and whatever is on the side of honesty, the Evangelicals, being Christians, have almost no choice but to take the side you think they have.

New Poll Shows 48% White Evangelicals Would Support Kavanaugh Even If He Assaulted Ford

Conservative Christians were instrumental in electing a "narcissistic" President who thinks that he is above asking God's forgiveness from sin - according to 1 John 1:10 such beliefs make Christ out to be a "liar!"

"If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us."
- 1 John 1:10

As for Kavanaugh, he has already "painted himself into a corner" by testifying before the Committee that he didn't drink to excess and therefore would never engaged in inappropriate behaviour!

Its a repeat of the same old reoccuring story - its not the original sin that puts "the nail in the coffin," but the lying/cover-up!

 

[redleghunter]

There are plenty of women out there who are still comfortable with patriarchy, a world ruled by men

Like the Catholic Church?

 

[redleghunter]

In a society stratified by class,

Comrade Che could not say it any better.

 

[redleghunter]

Conservative Christians were instrumental in electing a "narcissistic" President who thinks that he is above asking God's forgiveness from sin - according to 1 John 1:10 such beliefs make Christ out to be a "liar!"

Actually it was Notional Christians like Trump who got him elected. Although Evangelicals did come out in number consistent with 2012 when Romney was the nominee, it was the category of Notional Christians which broke the dam in favor of Trump just in the last three months.

From Barna survey:

While some media analysts have claimed that the evangelical vote for Trump was unusually large, the survey data do not support that claim. The 79 percent that evangelicals awarded to the GOP nominee was actually the lowest level of evangelical support for a Republican candidate since Bob Dole lost to Bill Clinton in 1996, garnering 74 percent of their support. The 79 percent figure earned by Trump in this election was slightly lower than the 81 percent given to Mitt Romney in 2012. Which was previously the lowest level of evangelical support for a Republican candidate since Dole.

Continuing:

Surprisingly, Trump’s biggest jump in support during the home stretch came from notional Christians. While that segment preferred Clinton by 12 points in September, they wound up siding with Trump by a two-point differential. That represents a 14-point gain in the final two months among the numerically-largest pool of religious voters.

Whoops...

Another shocking twist during the last two months was the shift of allegiance to Trump among atheists and agnostics. Trump gained 10 percentage points on Clinton among this group.

Now that’s pretty interesting.

Notional Christians are people who consider themselves to be Christian but they have not made “a personal commitment to Jesus Christ that is still important in their life today” or believe that when they die they will go to Heaven because they have confessed their sins and accepted Jesus Christ as their Savior.

Non Christians overwhelmingly went for Clinton:

Clinton finished strongly, in terms of total votes received, partially because of a huge rise in support among people aligned with non-Christian faiths. Her margin of preference increased among that group from seven points in September to a whopping 51 points on Election Day – a 44-point climb in eight weeks! Unfortunately for her campaign, the other-faith segment was the smallest of the five primary faith segments, rendering that growth in support significant but not enough to seal the deal.

Some definitions:

The Other faith segment refers to individuals who associate with a faith other than Christianity. Among the most common of those faith groups included within that segment were Judaism, Islam, Buddhism and Hinduism.

Skeptics are individuals who describe themselves as atheist or agnostic, or who indicate that they do not believe in the existence of God or have no faith-related ties or interests.

Chart:

Link:

https://www.barna.com/research/notional-christians-big-election-story-2016/

Your assertion refuted. The big bad Evangelical bogeyman theory is refuted.

You may want to visit some union halls, bars etc to find your Notional Christians to blame for Trump. Meaning actual voters.

 

[hedrick]

Actually it was Notional Christians like Trump who got him elected.

The text of this posting doesn't match the data. "notional Christians" increased in the last 2 months, but were still about evenly split, while evangelicals were strongly for Trump.

It is true, however that no president gets elected by a single constituency. Evangelicals were a critical constituency, and that's gotten the press, but people I'd call "red-necks" were just as important: racist, sexist, anti-immigrant, but often non-Christian or not particularly committed. Some in the press may think these are the same thing, but many evangelicals aren't those things (though I've seen postings here that could generate the impression). More recent analyses I've read identifies them as separate groups. Here's an analysis identifying 5 different groups: The Five Types of Trump Voters | Democracy Fund Voter Study Group

Note that many Christians don't use the "born-again" terminology. Without seeing the exact questions they asked, I have to wonder whether there weren't strong non-evangelical Christians classified as "notional."