• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

Neurologist outlines why machines can’t think

Uber Genius

"Super Genius"
Aug 13, 2016
2,921
1,244
Kentucky
✟72,039.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Libertarian
Strong AI specifically refers to hypothetical artificial intelligent that is fully conscious in the way that we would understand it.

First person introspection -
Qualia - knowing what it is like to experience senses
Abstract thought - what would a AI computer produce if asked for a 250 word essay on beauty or what separates humans from machines
Private thought life - any AI search algorithm can be reproduced readily by the programmer.

We are making striking advances but few in the field are making the area of machine learning but consciousness is only reached if we equivocate on the term consciousness and reduce it to physicalism.


Here the ACMs professional conference proceedings 2017 in the human computer interface SIG calls the AI an "algorithm." They are highlighting the most advanced AI platform in the world from Deepmind.

 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

devolved

Newbie
Sep 4, 2013
1,332
364
US
✟75,427.00
Faith
Seeker
Marital Status
Married
We don't think that abstract concepts are real "things" out there somewhere in the ether as if they were physical--we just think that form is ontologically prior to matter.

It doesn't come prior. Form is a generic attribute, just like color is a generic attribute. We could actually argue that no generic attribute ever exist (except in our reductionist brain), because these are always bound by specificity of the original concept we are referring to as a reference that we cast on every other similar entities by approximation. So, it's useless (in context of meta-reality) to discuss generic "squareness", "structuredness", or "formness" of something unless we have a specific nominal example of something that's square, structured, or formed. "Square" as a form doesn't exist as viable identifier apart from conceptual paradigm in our brain. It's merely a linguistic pointer that says "it's like this specific thing here".

So, there's a difference between your communication of concepts, my understanding of your communication of concepts, yours and mine perception of reality, and actual reality. All of these are layers that we have to consider in this conversation.

That's the problem with abstract generics I'm pointing to. You can't describe these apart from specifics.

Instead of saying that structure can't exist independently of matter, we say that matter cannot exist without context and structure.

The issue is that there is no generic context of structure and form you can point to. You only point to nominal consistency in context of observation.

Thus, "Matter", "form" and "structure" do not exists apart from nominal specificity of some things that we then give generic attributes to for purpose of communication. These are not primary attributes of anything out there in reality... These are generic concepts that we use as linguistic shortcuts to frame context of communication, which we can't conflate with either our perception or actual reality. To quote Korzybski ... " A map is not the territory".

In reality, there's a continuum of certain patterns that our brains perceive as "distinct" and "separate" by reducing that continuum into chunks through analysis of recognizable attributes of that continuum.

For example, as a continuum of certain painting, we can pick color in such a way, that after we shine a different color of light on it the painting would be different. Certain details would be lost, and other details would come to foreground. Yet, nothing substantially changed when it comes to the "form". What changed is the filter of our perception. Form is contextually irrelevant in terms of what we actually can see and describe nominally.

Assuming matter exists at all. Perhaps all of reality can be reduced to mathematical structures dreaming them/ourselves into phenomenal existence.

It makes little difference in context of actual perception and nominal communication. We likely never will know the nature of reality. All we can do is describe consistent processes so that we can use them to occupy contextual reality in which such knowledge can be extremely useful.

I think generics are important in framing broader context. I don't think these are useful when we circularly cast these as "prior" to the very specifics we use to derive the generics from.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Justatruthseeker

Newbie
Site Supporter
Jun 4, 2013
10,132
996
Tulsa, OK USA
✟177,504.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Widowed
Politics
US-Others
To a degree it's a matter of semantics, a photon is described as a 'particle' of light, and its evolution over time is described by a wavefunction which is usually a wave packet, a superposition of quantum probability amplitudes.
Or just described as a particle because the calculation as treating it as such are simpler than treating it as a multiple wave packet. It’s not semantic, simply simplification of the variables to make the math less time consuming.

Yes, but water waves are classical. Not sure what, other than distraction, your point is here. Ooh, squirrel!
Not sure what yours is besides the same.

Did you really mean 'mechanize'? doesn't make sense to me; 'quantize' maybe?
No, mechanize was the correct terminology. It’s that action at a distance that bothered them, so an attempt was made to mechanize the EM interactions.

As for reality not being real until we observe it, you can model it in various ways; as alternate histories being equally real until an observation is made, or superpositions being equally real until decoherence, etc. There are three shells of reality - external reality, consensus reality, and internal reality. When we discover something new about external reality, consensus and internal realities often have to change, and it's disconcerting, not least because, until we can conceptualise it coherently, we can only describe it in metaphor. This not the kind of reality we're familiar with, so we have no accurate metaphors, but if that's how nature behaves, that's reality.
Sure you can model it about any way you like, like Ptolemy did, doesn’t mean it’s correct even with the epicycles of math supporting it.

The measurement 'problem' also remains - what is meant by a measurement or observation depends on your preferred interpretation.
Agreed, and is why the Michelson-Morely experiment was a conceptionally flawed experiment from the get-go. Easily demonstrated that in reality it proved nothing.

Yes and no. They are what they are - sometimes a wave description is appropriate, sometimes a particle description.
Agreed, sometimes it is easier to simplify the model for the purpose of calculations.

GMO! You're right!! The last 50 years of research and experimentation by the brightest in the field have been wasted! - I'll alert the Royal Physical Society and the Nobel Committee! Not ;)

I'll leave you to it...
Coming from someone that says they understand history your answer is surprising, considering that almost every 200 years everything the top experts thought was true has been completely overturned. But I guess it’s easier to ignore history when someone has a model they like...... Of course, they thought they had it all figured out then too....
 
Upvote 0

expos4ever

Well-Known Member
Oct 22, 2008
11,253
6,244
Montreal, Quebec
✟304,343.00
Country
Canada
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Coming from someone that says they understand history your answer is surprising, considering that almost every 200 years everything the top experts thought was true has been completely overturned. But I guess it’s easier to ignore history when someone has a model they like...... Of course, they thought they had it all figured out then too....
This seems like exaggeration. Those who have an agenda to undermine the reliability of science often trot out this “science is not reliable since the scientists are always changing their minds” canard.

The reality is that the more typical pattern is that old models are refined and updated as new data becomes available. So it is not so much that old models are replaced wholesale, but rather they are tuned as new evidence warrants.

While the critic of evolution would represent the changeability of science as a weakness, it is in fact a strength.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: devolved
Upvote 0

FrumiousBandersnatch

Well-Known Member
Mar 20, 2009
15,405
8,144
✟349,292.00
Faith
Atheist
Yes, given that multiverse models tend to be motivated by a desire to save determinism...
I don't agree that this is the case; there seems to be a persistent claim that multiverses are motivated by sundry needs, such as the need to explain fine-tuning, or to save determinism, but the fact is that they're predicted by current physical theories. It may be that they can be recruited post-hoc to some explanation, but they're motivated by the physical theories. For example, in Tegmark's taxonomy, the level 1 multiverse (cosmological) is the logical consequence of a spatially infinite universe that follows the Cosmological Principle (homogeneous and isotropic on large scales); the level 2 multiverse (inflationary) is a logical consequence of the theory of eternal inflation; the level 3 multiverse (quantum) is a consequence of the simplest no-collapse interpretation of quantum mechanics (Everettian 'Many Worlds'); and similarly for other varieties.

Beliefs and desires are teleological and would not be "causing" behavior in the same sense that brain chemistry does.
I see teleological explanations as entirely reasonable descriptions of causal goal-seeking behaviour. I'm not keen on the Dennettian 'intentional stance' for non-goal-directed processes such as evolution, because it implies teleological development; but where a plan has been made and is pursued, it seems entirely appropriate - and that applies to autonomous robotics that formulate and pursue plans of action, too.

This is actually an interesting problem which leads quite nicely back to the original post, minus the AI red herring and implicit Creationism. What does it mean for beliefs and desires to be causal? These are intentional states--we could say that they represent attitudes towards information about the world. The traditional problem of Cartesian dualism is obviously explaining how the immaterial mind affects matter, but I would be hesitant to let materialism off the hook here, since it is unclear to me how intentional states can compel physical behavior. A muscle spasm produces motion, but what is the causal link between a desire and a motion? The options seem to be:

1) Reductive materialism. Intentional states such as beliefs and desires can be reduced to material interactions and information processing (granting for the moment that computation can be made sense of on a genuinely materialistic ontology, which I would deny). If intentional states are merely supervening upon specific physical states, then they themselves are superfluous to behavior, and it is unclear why they exist at all if we would function in exactly the same manner without them. It seems to me that you would need to retreat into panpsychism to make sense of this approach.

2) Eliminative materialism. Intentional states don't exist. We only believe that we have beliefs. (Just in case people doubted that materialists were capable of YEC level dogmatism.)

3) Non-reductive materialism. The mental is emergent from the physical but cannot be reduced to it. But if mental states cannot be reduced to physical ones, then we are back to wondering what a desire actually is and how it can play a causal role in physical processes. Non-reductive materialism is actually one of my favorite theories of mind, but I do not see how it avoids the problems of dualism simply by labeling itself differently.

Hopefully I have made myself sufficiently clear, since I think this is a better framework for a discussion of intentionality than the initial question of AI was.
I think intentional states exist as a high-level description of certain kinds of materialist causality (e.g. goal-directed behaviours). At a low (primitive) level our systems are hard-wired (programmed, if you like) by natural selection to seek stimulation of the pleasure and reward circuitry, which are wired to respond to feeding, reproduction, etc. Even relatively simple brains are dynamic and can modify their connectivity (hence behaviour) through learning (positive and negative reinforcement). More sophisticated brains can model their world and themselves and use prior experience as a basis for modeling behavioural outcomes, choosing favourable outcomes and planning routes to these outcomes. The underlying drives have the same basis, but may be diverted and sublimated in various ways, through learning (social, cultural, & religious indoctrination, and so-on), etc.

So what I'm saying is that our motivations and drives derive from evolution by natural selection; creatures that seek food, attack or flee from threats, seek mates, co-operate with kin, etc., are more likely to survive to reproduce and pass on those traits. Sophisticated brains build multiple levels of behaviour on top of this, and devise high-level conceptual abstractions to describe those behaviours.

Yes, but the fact that the majority of decisions are unconscious is irrelevant if conscious, deliberative decisions ever take place. It does not matter how much of our behavior is unconscious or automatic--you still need to account for the existence of System II decisions or declare conscious, deliberative thought entirely and always illusory. Which seems like it would be an extreme and anti-empirical position.
Conscious, deliberative thought is clearly real enough (I highly recommend Kahneman's book, "Thinking, Fast and Slow"); it's simply a different mode of thinking - slow, sequential, effortful, and requiring the full focus of attention (arguably the distinguishing element of consciousness). I think a problem in such discussions is that consciousness is often seen as a unitary, high-level executor, a separate aspect of the mind, but experimental evidence suggests that it's composite, comprising various aspects of the sense of self and the self-model, feelings (interoception), attention, awareness, and so-on, with notifications from unconscious processes. The evidence is that unconscious processing tends to be localised in the brain, conscious awareness involves widescale activity across the brain, and the roots of agency are unconscious.

I would have a problem with anyone except an idealist declaring temperature and pressure illusory. What is from one point of view a vast number of molecules moving around with random velocities is from a different perspective a gas with temperature and pressure. How are molecules real but pressure not real? And if we wish to reduce reality, can we not go even further? I am not at all uncomfortable denying the existence of molecules and particles and taking the relations without relata approach.
Exactly, this is my point. Temperature and pressure are emergent phenomena with their own physical rules and descriptive language that vastly simplify dealing with the behaviour of gas molecules in bulk. Similarly, we have high-level conceptual abstractions for describing human behaviours that are reducible to composites of lower-level behaviours, themselves reducible to causal interactions between neurons, which are reducible to complex organic chemistry, and so-on. We use concepts and language appropriate to the level of emergence or abstraction we're dealing with, and it's a mistake to mix descriptive levels.

I don't think it's coherent to invoke the concept of illusion when discussing aspects of reality that are by their nature subjective and experiential, since the notion of an illusion presupposes the existence of a phenomenal state that matches up to reality. If none do, then the illusory is indistinguishable from the non-illusory.
I broadly agree, although there are situations where the subjective experience misrepresents phenomenal reality in some way, e.g. phantom limb pain, which is real enough, but illusory with respect to the apparent source.
 
Upvote 0

Strathos

No one important
Dec 11, 2012
12,663
6,532
God's Earth
✟270,796.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Democrat
The real problem I have with arguments like this is that they could be used to justify abuse of hypothetical future thinking machines ('even though this robot's intelligence and behavior are indistinguishable from that of a human's it's not really conscious because reasons so it doesn't deserve any rights'), etc.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Silmarien
Upvote 0

Justatruthseeker

Newbie
Site Supporter
Jun 4, 2013
10,132
996
Tulsa, OK USA
✟177,504.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Widowed
Politics
US-Others
This seems like exaggeration. Those who have an agenda to undermine the reliability of science often trot out this “science is not reliable since the scientists are always changing their minds” canard.

The reality is that the more typical pattern is that old models are refined and updated as new data becomes available. So it is not so much that old models are replaced wholesale, but rather they are tuned as new evidence warrants.

While the critic of evolution would represent the changeability of science as a weakness, it is in fact a strength.
Those who have an agenda for holding on to the current theory tend to trot out this “everyone agrees” canard while ignoring that “everyone agreed” every single time and fought tooth and nail to resist the new paradigm that ended up replacing what everyone agreed to before it was falsified.

When the proponent would present the overturning of theories for complete shifts in paradigm as merely small updates to science, science fails....

Please, Ptolemy’s epicycles as just one example were not “refined”. A complete shift in paradigms occurred. As happens almost every 200 years. Don’t blind yourself willingly to the truth of history.
 
Upvote 0

devolved

Newbie
Sep 4, 2013
1,332
364
US
✟75,427.00
Faith
Seeker
Marital Status
Married
The real problem I have with arguments like this is that they could be used to justify abuse of hypothetical future thinking machines ('even though this robot's intelligence and behavior are indistinguishable from that of a human's it's not really conscious because reasons so it doesn't deserve any rights'), etc.

Abuse? You mean like dressing them up in Wild West outfits and raping and murdering them for fun? ;)

If we can collectively justify the ethics of factory farming, then why do you think that "robotic slaves" concept would be problematic in context of human rights?
 
Upvote 0

expos4ever

Well-Known Member
Oct 22, 2008
11,253
6,244
Montreal, Quebec
✟304,343.00
Country
Canada
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Those who have an agenda for holding on to the current theory tend to trot out this “everyone agrees” canard while ignoring that “everyone agreed” every single time and fought tooth and nail to resist the new paradigm that ended up replacing what everyone agreed to before it was falsified.

When the proponent would present the overturning of theories for complete shifts in paradigm as merely small updates to science, science fails....

Please, Ptolemy’s epicycles as just one example were not “refined”. A complete shift in paradigms occurred. As happens almost every 200 years. Don’t blind yourself willingly to the truth of history.
What is your fundamental point? That science is unreliable? We could argue ad nauseum about the degree to which science has revised its models over the millennia.

It appears to me that you are trying to connect the “changeability” of science to its fundamental capability to get at truth.

The problem is that it is perfectly reasonable to expect that there will be lots of rework needed to models that try to explain the rich phenomena of the universe.

You seem to think that if the scientists don’t get it right from the get-go, this means we can’t trust science.

What alternative do you propose? To take literally a text that has a talking snake?
 
Upvote 0

Justatruthseeker

Newbie
Site Supporter
Jun 4, 2013
10,132
996
Tulsa, OK USA
✟177,504.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Widowed
Politics
US-Others
What is your fundamental point? That science is unreliable? We could argue ad nauseum about the degree to which science has revised its models over the millennia.
Oh no, I hold to science 100%, but this does not mean that everything presented as science is in fact science.

It appears to me that you are trying to connect the “changeability” of science to its fundamental capability to get at truth.
Truth is subjective. What is today’s truths are tomorrow’s falsehoods of belief.

The problem is that it is perfectly reasonable to expect that there will be lots of rework needed to models that try to explain the rich phenomena of the universe.
Perhaps because like Ptolemy their starting points were flawed from the beginning?

You seem to think that if the scientists don’t get it right from the get-go, this means we can’t trust science.
Not at all. You simply confuse what I accept to be science and what I accept to be Fairie Dust in support of epicycles.

What alternative do you propose? To take literally a text that has a talking snake?
Depends on which branch of “science” versus unsupported epicycles held up by Fairie Dust we are discussing at any given moment.

Science is all about questioning, but we see what happens whenever someone questions the standard dogma on here......

What snake? It was a beast of the field, one clearly not alive today. Certainly you don't want me to accept it was a snake which crawls on its belly if the punishment is to do just that. So apparently it was a creature with legs, not a snake. And I don't think youll find anyone that believes a snake could talk on its own, anymore than the donkey on the road to Damascus did. Rather both were used as mouthpieces by two different entities. Any other strawmen and innuendos we need to get out of the way first so we can have a rational discussion?
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Silmarien

Existentialist
Feb 24, 2017
4,337
5,254
39
New York
✟223,224.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Democrat
First person introspection -
Qualia - knowing what it is like to experience senses
Abstract thought - what would a AI computer produce if asked for a 250 word essay on beauty or what separates humans from machines
Private thought life - any AI search algorithm can be reproduced readily by the programmer.

We are making striking advances but few in the field are making the area of machine learning but consciousness is only reached if we equivocate on the term consciousness and reduce it to physicalism.


Here the ACMs professional conference proceedings 2017 in the human computer interface SIG calls the AI an "algorithm." They are highlighting the most advanced AI platform in the world from Deepmind.


I specified "hypothetical" because Strong Artificial Intelligence does not exist yet. This doesn't make it impossible, and physicalism is not the only ontology that allows for it. Searle's approach to mind probably doesn't, but his biological not-quite-dualism seems specifically designed around ruling out strong AI.

It doesn't come prior. Form is a generic attribute, just like color is a generic attribute. We could actually argue that no generic attribute ever exist (except in our reductionist brain), because these are always bound by specificity of the original concept we are referring to as a reference that we cast on every other similar entities by approximation. So, it's useless (in context of meta-reality) to discuss generic "squareness", "structuredness", or "formness" of something unless we have a specific nominal example of something that's square, structured, or formed. "Square" as a form doesn't exist as viable identifier apart from conceptual paradigm in our brain. It's merely a linguistic pointer that says "it's like this specific thing here".

So, there's a difference between your communication of concepts, my understanding of your communication of concepts, yours and mine perception of reality, and actual reality. All of these are layers that we have to consider in this conversation.

That's the problem with abstract generics I'm pointing to. You can't describe these apart from specifics.

You're nicely illustrating my initial point here, since you are asserting that nominalism is true, and thus begging the question against Platonism. Would the square as a specific combination of angles and lengths exist as an abstract geometic object even if there were no square shaped entities in existence? That is the underlying question, and you haven't really made an argument here against that position. You seem to just be engaged in an epistemological attack on metaphysics in general, but even the sort of transcendental idealism you seem to be favoring here doesn't imply that form cannot be ontologically prior to matter. The fact that our minds are actively structuring reality around us might in fact imply, once again, that reality is constituted first by form, and second by matter. (Assuming, of course, that matter exists at all, which I'm beginning to consider a pretty big assumption. Ontic Structural Realism has sent me spiraling off the deep-end, if not exactly in the direction its proponents would like.)

The issue is that there is no generic context of structure and form you can point to. You only point to nominal consistency in context of observation.

Yes, I can. I can say that mathematics exist as abstract truths. This is obviously not a universal view, but it is not an uncommon one amongst mathematicians and physicists. Pythagorean idealism is a tenable position.

Hi Silmarilien, where in post 120 do you disagree with David Chalmers?

Chalmers is a naturalist so is usually trying to conceive of things within a naturalistic paradigm. I'm an absolute idealist, so I work within a very different framework and don't have much use for the type of panpsychism he seems to espouse. I also don't believe that zombies are metaphysically possible.

Chalmers is certainly fun, though, and I think he's asking important questions. If in a somewhat ridiculous fashion at times. ^_^
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Justatruthseeker

Newbie
Site Supporter
Jun 4, 2013
10,132
996
Tulsa, OK USA
✟177,504.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Widowed
Politics
US-Others
That is an interesting way to look at it.
Now we just want to play God and make our own worshipers. Wonder what we'll do when they refuse to accept us as their creator, or even as inferiors, pull the plug?
 
Upvote 0

Silmarien

Existentialist
Feb 24, 2017
4,337
5,254
39
New York
✟223,224.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Democrat
I don't agree that this is the case; there seems to be a persistent claim that multiverses are motivated by sundry needs, such as the need to explain fine-tuning, or to save determinism, but the fact is that they're predicted by current physical theories.

Sure, but predictions don't occur in a vacuum. I have no trouble believing that within a certain metaphysical framework, multiverse models are predicted, but that doesn't make it relevant outside of that particular metaphysical framework. If the metaphysics are wrong, so is the model, and if you need as convoluted a model as this to make sense of modern physics, perhaps the problem lies in the initial metaphysics.

I see teleological explanations as entirely reasonable descriptions of causal goal-seeking behaviour. I'm not keen on the Dennettian 'intentional stance' for non-goal-directed processes such as evolution, because it implies teleological development; but where a plan has been made and is pursued, it seems entirely appropriate - and that applies to autonomous robotics that formulate and pursue plans of action, too.

Of course. I subscribe to a computational theory of mind (if an explicitly Neoplatonic version), so I have no problem with genuinely conscious and teleologically oriented artificial intelligence. My concern here would be how goal-seeking behavior can be accounted for at all on a materialistic ontology. How does non-teleological behavior give rise to teleological behavior?

I think intentional states exist as a high-level description of certain kinds of materialist causality (e.g. goal-directed behaviours). At a low (primitive) level our systems are hard-wired (programmed, if you like) by natural selection to seek stimulation of the pleasure and reward circuitry, which are wired to respond to feeding, reproduction, etc.

We've already hit a serious snag, as we need to account for the existence of pleasure and reward circuitry at all. Pleasure and pain are phenomena; why does the former supervene on one set of circuitry and the latter on a separate set? Why is one good and one bad? We are immediately into the realm of value judgments once positive and negative reinforcement is being invoked, so it seems that hardwiring via natural selection presupposes the prior existence of values.

(Note: I accept evolution. I do not accept materialism, and will cry foul when materialists invoke evolution to wave away problems for their metaphysics. The fact that I have to specify this is really frustrating, but given that Creationists have co-opted every possible criticism of physicalism to suit their own agenda, it unfortunately has to be said.)

I'll leave things here, since I'm more or less in agreement with the rest of your post. (Well, except for where the reductionistic ontology threatens to collapse into quite literally nothingness, but I think that issue has been touched upon here in more concrete ways as it is.)
 
Upvote 0

Justatruthseeker

Newbie
Site Supporter
Jun 4, 2013
10,132
996
Tulsa, OK USA
✟177,504.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Widowed
Politics
US-Others
Sure, but predictions don't occur in a vacuum. I have no trouble believing that within a certain metaphysical framework, multiverse models are predicted, but that doesn't make it relevant outside of that particular metaphysical framework. If the metaphysics are wrong, so is the model, and if you need as convoluted a model as this to make sense of modern physics, perhaps the problem lies in the initial metaphysics.
Oh I couldn't agree more. Or say for example if a theory tested to a 99.8% accuracy in planetary systems would suddenly need 96% convoluted ad-hoc theory added to it to describe a universe composed almost entirely of a different state of matter, then one might conclude it is simply the underlying metaphysics that the same force is the dominate force in all states of matter that is wrong. Especially when no experiment ever performed supports the conclusion it is the dominating force in that other state of matter....


(Note: I accept evolution. I do not accept materialism, and will cry foul when materialists invoke evolution to wave away problems for their metaphysics. The fact that I have to specify this is really frustrating, but given that Creationists have co-opted every possible criticism of physicalism to suit their own agenda, it unfortunately has to be said.)
One might argue instead that it is evolutionists that have co-opted every possible criticism of materialism to suit their own agenda, when nothing actually shows evolution. Let's first be clear adaptation within a species is not evolution, merely adaptation of what already exists as a possibility to begin with, within that organism.
 
Upvote 0

Silmarien

Existentialist
Feb 24, 2017
4,337
5,254
39
New York
✟223,224.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Democrat
Oh I couldn't agree more. Or say for example if a theory tested to a 99.8% accuracy in planetary systems would suddenly need 96% convoluted ad-hoc theory added to it to describe a universe composed almost entirely of a different state of matter, then one might conclude it is simply the underlying metaphysics that the same force is the dominate force in all states of matter that is wrong. Especially when no experiment ever performed supports the conclusion it is the dominating force in that other state of matter....

I'm not really sure what you're saying here. Could you unpack this a bit?

One might argue instead that it is evolutionists that have co-opted every possible criticism of materialism to suit their own agenda, when nothing actually shows evolution. Let's first be clear adaptation within a species is not evolution, merely adaptation of what already exists as a possibility to begin with, within that organism.

1. Adaptation within a species is evolution.

2. There is quite a bit of evidence for evolution, though you're better off arguing with someone who actually cares about these particular debates. I don't. I just don't want atheists jumping on me because they think I'm attacking evolution.

3. No evolutionist uses criticisms of materialism to defend evolutionary theory. Obviously the materialists would not do so, and unless you want me to make a theological argument for evolution, I'm not sure how it would be relevant.

What is your fundamental point? That science is unreliable? We could argue ad nauseum about the degree to which science has revised its models over the millennia.

It appears to me that you are trying to connect the “changeability” of science to its fundamental capability to get at truth.

The problem is that it is perfectly reasonable to expect that there will be lots of rework needed to models that try to explain the rich phenomena of the universe.

You seem to think that if the scientists don’t get it right from the get-go, this means we can’t trust science.

What alternative do you propose? To take literally a text that has a talking snake?

Just want to point out that the Kuhnian paradigm shift is a legitimate problem: science usually moves forward slowly, reworking models as it goes, but every so often a tipping point is reached, the previous paradigm is no longer capable of handling the information it is receiving, and genuine scientific revolutions occur. When this happens, it is a big deal.

Whether science is actually telling us anything at all is a major problem in philosophy of science, independently of holy books and talking snakes. I'm a realist about science (despite some of what I've said here), but it is not as sturdy a position as one would like it to be.
 
Upvote 0

Justatruthseeker

Newbie
Site Supporter
Jun 4, 2013
10,132
996
Tulsa, OK USA
✟177,504.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Widowed
Politics
US-Others
I'm not really sure what you're saying here. Could you unpack this a bit?
What did you find difficult? The fact that certain theories tested to be 99.8% correct in the solar system need 96% convoluted ad-hoc theory added to them outside it, but not where tested to be 99.8% accurate? Or the fact that not a single experiment has ever shown that the theory tested to a 99.8% accuracy inside the solar system is the dominating force in the state of matter that makes up 99.9% of the universe?


1. Adaptation within a species is evolution.
No, a million black haired rabbits moved close to the arctic circle becoming white haired rabbits is not evolution.....

2. There is quite a bit of evidence for evolution, though you're better off arguing with someone who actually cares about these particular debates. I don't. I just don't want atheists jumping on me because they think I'm attacking evolution.
Who cares? they are gonna jump on you anyways because your discussing metaphysical things. Can't win for losing so why care what they think?

3. No evolutionist uses criticisms of materialism to defend evolutionary theory. Obviously the materialists would not do so, and unless you want me to make a theological argument for evolution, I'm not sure how it would be relevant.

Ok, criticism was the wrong word. They adopt materialism and co-opt it as if only it can be used for evolution. Like your incorrect belief that black rabbits becoming white rabbits is evolution. You have simply co-opted adaptation to your end, when it is not solely an evolutionary necessity.

For example, antiviral medicines. No virus has ever become another species of virus in the entire history of medicine. So belief in evolution is not required for anti-viral research. just the understanding that virus adapt within their own species.......


Just want to point out that the Kuhnian paradigm shift is a legitimate problem: science usually moves forward slowly, reworking models as it goes, but every so often a tipping point is reached, the previous paradigm is no longer capable of handling the information it is receiving, and genuine scientific revolutions occur. When this happens, it is a big deal.
Agreed, about every 200 years or so give or take.

Whether science is actually telling us anything at all is a major problem in philosophy of science, independently of holy books and talking snakes. I'm a realist about science (despite some of what I've said here), but it is not as sturdy a position as one would like it to be.
I'm a realist about science too, that's why I don't always agree that everything claimed to be science actually is. Most of it is merely epicycles supported by Fairie Dust.

In fact 96% of modern cosmology is exactly that. Why would I accept that a theory 99.8% correct without adding Fairie Dust to it, suddenly needs 96% Fairie Dust added to it to make it correct? Why not just accept that different states of matter are dominated by different forces as has been demonstrated in every single plasma experiment for the last 200+ years?

I just think it's time we abandoned the Fairie Dust and got around to that paradigm shift.....
 
Upvote 0

devolved

Newbie
Sep 4, 2013
1,332
364
US
✟75,427.00
Faith
Seeker
Marital Status
Married
You're nicely illustrating my initial point here, since you are asserting that nominalism is true, and thus begging the question against Platonism.

Well, yes, of course. All of the initial assumptions we take on would beg the question, including Platonism. Going back to the Muchhousen's trilemma, there's no real way around question begging in context of certain initial chains of axiomatic assumptions.

Would the square as a specific combination of angles and lengths exist as an abstract geometic object even if there were no square shaped entities in existence? That is the underlying question, and you haven't really made an argument here against that position.

Well, these would exist as a combination of angles, because angles exist. Would your conceptual square exist if there were no angles to refer to in reality?

You seem to just be engaged in an epistemological attack on metaphysics in general, but even the sort of transcendental idealism you seem to be favoring here doesn't imply that form cannot be ontologically prior to matter. The fact that our minds are actively structuring reality around us might in fact imply, once again, that reality is constituted first by form, and second by matter. (Assuming, of course, that matter exists at all, which I'm beginning to consider a pretty big assumption. Ontic Structural Realism has sent me spiraling off the deep-end, if not exactly in the direction its proponents would like.)

You keep splitting form and matter as though these are two distinct concepts. Why do you think of these as separate?

Yes, I can. I can say that mathematics exist as abstract truths. This is obviously not a universal view, but it is not an uncommon one amongst mathematicians and physicists. Pythagorean idealism is a tenable position.

Do you think mathematics could exist as a mere standalone concept, and not as a tool that's used to map and quantize material reality?
 
Upvote 0