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Neurologist outlines why machines can’t think

Radrook

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I have seen the Terminator movies too many times to totally discount the possibility that one day machines might become self-aware and turn against us.
The problem is that machines can be made to mimic human thought processes to the degree that they SEEM to be thinking and conversation with them can become indistinguishable from conversation with a truly thinking creature.
http://writerdreams.freeforums.net/thread/16/androids-consciousness

Some of the conversations that are held with Sophia one of the latest androids who can supposedly think are clearly scripted but they were convincing enough for her to be provided with citizenship by the Arabian government. That means that in that country it enjoys the same rights as human citizens. Which means that destroying it there would be considered murder. How about that!
 
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Silmarien

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Sorry, I was using the philosophical definition of 'determinism' meaning that events are the result of (caused by) prior events, and 'indeterminism' to mean that events are not caused by prior events (not deterministic); indeterministic effectively means random or stochastic; in physics, only certain quantum events are thought to be truly indeterministic (although this may well be a lottery-style artefact of our limited viewpoint), and it's thought that these don't generally propagate to macro-scales except in very specific circumstances. Randomness in the macro world is really the pseudo-randomness of deterministic but unpredictable influences (e.g. chaos, complexity).

Yes, and it is this particular philosophical definition that I'm challenging, since the sort of determinism entailed by the idea that we make decisions based on a mixture of internal and external factors is very different than the type that places conscious choice outside of the causal chain and reduces all behavior to unconscious, physical processes. When you conflate these two types of "determinism," one of which is required for free will and the other of which is incompatible with it, you basically define the libertarian view out of existence. Which is very convenient for the determinist, I'm sure, but not so great for discourse!

My argument is that our decisions are the result of prior events, e.g. the life experiences that have configured our brains and how they process information, and those processes themselves. This processing may include some pseudo-random contributions (e.g. thermal 'noise') and, possibly, quantum indeterminacy. Since our brains function reliably enough for us to survive and prosper, it seems these disturbing influences must, in general, have only small effects.

I agree with you, at least to a point. We are to a large extent the product of our histories and environments, and our choices are going to be colored by that. But just as the brain is configured by events outside of our conscious direction, neuroplasticity means that we also have the power to reconfigure it. It is at the higher operating levels that we decide who we are to be, and this is something that we decide every moment of every day. I take the "will" part of free will very seriously, since I think freedom in this sense is more a matter of discipline than something we have absolute access to at every moment. (Also, I have a strong Sartrean streak, though minus the anti-theism these days.)

I don't really care about quantum indeterminancy, except insofar as I'm intrigued by the Aristotelian interpretation whereby potentiality and actuality are genuine features of reality.

OK. It would help me understand your position if you could explain precisely what you mean by free will by means of an example where you can explain the deterministic and indeterministic contributions to it.

Oh, the two-stage model of free will is not specifically my position. On the days I'm not inclined to take a Mysterian approach and declare free will a genuine paradox, I prefer an agent-causal model. We are agents in our own right and more than just the epiphenomenal accumulation of more basic physical processes. I don't know how well this works on a materialistic metaphysics--the closest I ever get to that is a slightly naturalized Aristotelian hylomorphism, but you could probably invoke emergence to account for the sort of top-down causality necessary to view the person as a causal agent.

As for the two-stage model, there's a fair amount of information on that here: http://www.informationphilosopher.com/books/scandal/Two-Stage_Models.pdf
 
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Justatruthseeker

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The so-called dual nature of light is an artefact of our attempts to visualise or describe it; the duality is a duality of aspect; i.e. it's not something that is both a particle and a wave, but something that has aspects of both a wave and a particle according to how you observe it.

A simple analogy is a cylinder, which is neither circular nor rectangular but appears circular when viewed end-on, and rectangular when viewed side-on.
Let me ask you a question. Does water and light produce the same exact defraction patterns?
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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Yes, and it is this particular philosophical definition that I'm challenging, since the sort of determinism entailed by the idea that we make decisions based on a mixture of internal and external factors is very different than the type that places conscious choice outside of the causal chain and reduces all behavior to unconscious, physical processes. When you conflate these two types of "determinism," one of which is required for free will and the other of which is incompatible with it, you basically define the libertarian view out of existence. Which is very convenient for the determinist, I'm sure, but not so great for discourse!
I'm not really interested in defining this or that out of existence, but just using simple definitions to produce a coherent description of the world.

It seems to me that the definition of determinism I described (i.e. events have prior causes) says nothing about consciousness or free will beyond the implication that they will be causal (or, at least, effectively causal). It also seems to me that not all behaviour is unconscious, in as much as we are conscious of some of our behaviour; also to the extent that behaviour consists of actions, it is physical.

I don't see how conscious choice can be 'outside the causal chain'. The choices we make, whether we are conscious of them or not, are not, in general, random, so are, in general, causal.

This seems to me quite consistent with free will, if free will is the ability to make choices according to our preferences, inclinations, desires, needs, wants, etc., without coercion or constraint. It only suggests that those preferences, inclinations, desires, needs, wants, etc., have causal origin.

... just as the brain is configured by events outside of our conscious direction, neuroplasticity means that we also have the power to reconfigure it. It is at the higher operating levels that we decide who we are to be, and this is something that we decide every moment of every day. I take the "will" part of free will very seriously, since I think freedom in this sense is more a matter of discipline than something we have absolute access to at every moment.
Sure, we're complex goal-seeking, learning, self-modifying systems. We can model outcomes, plan ahead, and defer gratification. We make decisions for reasons - e.g. pleasure, pain, reward, etc., and our innate and learned values and past and ongoing life experiences determine our goals and motivations in respect of those reasons.

I don't really care about quantum indeterminancy, except insofar as I'm intrigued by the Aristotelian interpretation whereby potentiality and actuality are genuine features of reality.
Yes; modern physics has some interesting ideas relating to potentiality and actuality involving certain versions of the multiverse, where anything that can happen (potentiality) does happen (actuality). This is true of both the cosmological multiverse (i.e. if our universe is spatially infinite), and the quantum multiverse (Everettian 'Many Worlds'), where quantum indeterminacy is the result of each possible outcome having a 'version' of the observer.

Oh, the two-stage model of free will is not specifically my position. On the days I'm not inclined to take a Mysterian approach and declare free will a genuine paradox, I prefer an agent-causal model. We are agents in our own right and more than just the epiphenomenal accumulation of more basic physical processes. I don't know how well this works on a materialistic metaphysics--the closest I ever get to that is a slightly naturalized Aristotelian hylomorphism, but you could probably invoke emergence to account for the sort of top-down causality necessary to view the person as a causal agent.
I would still be interested in an example of what you see as an exercise of free will, and where you see causality ans indeterminism being involved.

Aristotlian metaphysics is interesting background material, but given the advances in physical knowledge, I'm not sure how useful it is to modern metaphysics.

I think you're right to introduce emergence here. There are levels of description or abstraction, each with its own ontology and descriptive language, and it's a mistake to mix levels of description. Just as, on one level, a gas is a collection of freely moving atoms or molecules with varying velocities, and, on another level, it is a compressible substance with a temperature and pressure. I suggest that top-down causality is a high level of description of certain emergent behaviours of a system composed of elements that have their own behaviours at a lower level (the interacting patterns of Conway's Game of Life, or flocking and shoaling behaviours come to mind - you can describe the movements of individual birds as being caused by the movement of the flock, or the movement of the flock as caused by the individual movements of many birds). It also seems to me that agency is part of a high-level behavioural language, where the agent is a particular nexus that (crudely) accumulates environmental influences and processes them to produce behavioural outputs.

As for the two-stage model, there's a fair amount of information on that here: http://www.informationphilosopher.com/books/scandal/Two-Stage_Models.pdf
Thanks, an interesting paper. There does seem to be a consistent use of 'random' and 'chance' to mean unexpected or unpredictable due to underlying complexity (e.g. the interaction of untraced or untraceable causal chains that are not directly related). This kind of randomness or chance is subjective, a result of lack of knowledge of the deterministic processes involved - it's pseudo-random.

Also, I think the suggestion that, "...in a deterministic universe, there are no genuinely new creative acts. Determinism is “information preserving.”", is mistaken (although it depends on precisely what is meant by the terms they use). Creativity is the combination and/or manipulation of existing concepts and ideas to produce novel concepts and ideas, which does not exclude determinism; and if we take a simple definition of information to be a particular arrangement of matter, new arrangements are not beyond determinism either (this also applies for arrangements with semantic content).
 
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Justatruthseeker

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Water waves and light can produce similar diffraction effects and patterns. So?

Similar under specific conditions but dissimilar under others, yes? The so cant be presented until we agree on the conditions.
 
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tas8831

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Cool - a right-wing creationist "journalist" rants. And you copy-paste most of it! Shocking! At least it was not directly from ENV....
This article is an interesting discussion about why it is not AI that is a threat to humanity. ...
By Denyse O'Leary
 
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tas8831

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Machines can't think because machines do not have billions of neural processors. The newest computer chip has 18 cores running 36 threads. Compare this to the human brain using billions of cores running billions of threads, capable of forming new threads when needed. When we create a computer like that, then we'll discuss if AI is possible...
In the brain, what is the equivalent of a core and a thread?
 
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tas8831

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The brain is a material object but indications from NS are that the mind is something else that transcends the material brain.
What are these indications, exactly?

Olde tyme observations such as the Phineas Gage affair seem to indicate that the brain is the vessel and the 'spirit.' I will wait while you search ENV to find an appropriate essay penned by a non-neuroscientist to copy-paste.
 
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tas8831

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Why is it every time someone claims I'm wrong, they can never provide supporting evidence, instead just make claims?????
You mean like here?

I think it is much more likely that 1. Your arguments themselves are typically just claims, and so do not deserve more than a counter-claim; 2. on the occasions that you do try to support your arguments, you pretty much always fail (such as when you claimed that the Grant paper proved your were right about hybridization creating new alleles); 3. the fact that even after your arguments have been refuted and turned inside out over and over, you just keep making the same claims with no support.

Something like that?
 
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Justatruthseeker

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You mean like here?

I think it is much more likely that 1. Your arguments themselves are typically just claims, and so do not deserve more than a counter-claim; 2. on the occasions that you do try to support your arguments, you pretty much always fail (such as when you claimed that the Grant paper proved your were right about hybridization creating new alleles); 3. the fact that even after your arguments have been refuted and turned inside out over and over, you just keep making the same claims with no support.

Something like that?
Here, let's copy the relevant portion..

"due to a very large fraction being highly degraded by mutation. Due to this degeneracy,"........

Oh, but how convenient you forgot that I said the human genome was once more perfect and has "degraded" over time due to mutations. But thank you for the link that supports my claim, and falsifies your arguments against it. I appreciate it. I really do.

As I said, merely claims and yet the actual documents support everything I said and none of what you claimed..... for the thousands time.... Imagine that...

Take your silly attempts at discrediting people somewhere were people might buy into your delusions, and try to stay on topic, not wonder off in wonderland as usual. This isn't an evolutionary post, respect the OP.
 
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Justatruthseeker

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I have no idea what you're getting at here. What is the point you're trying to make?
Water is made of particles, yes?

These particles undergo a wavelike motion, yes?

So if light was made of particles undergoing a wavelike motion......

Now lets look at electron beams. They produce patterns similar to light in slit tests. But theorists no longer conjecture that an electron is an actual particle, but is instead a wave.

So light is not dual in nature. It is not made up of discrete particles undergoing a wavelike motion, but is a true wave.

I bring this up to show that what we conceive of as being one thing or another may not always be as simple as it seems on it's face.

So what we think are random events in particle physics, may not be random at all, just our inability to conceive of a way they could be affected because we haven't considered all the variables. That and the Copenhagen interpretation of quantum physics is a bunch of bull excrement IMO.
 
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Silmarien

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I'm not really interested in defining this or that out of existence, but just using simple definitions to produce a coherent description of the world.

But the definition is too simple if it involves conflating multiple different meanings of the word "determine" into one concept. Philippa Foot discusses this particular problem in her article Free Will As Involving Determinism, which you can find part of in the Google preview here.

I don't see how conscious choice can be 'outside the causal chain'. The choices we make, whether we are conscious of them or not, are not, in general, random, so are, in general, causal.

Sorry, I actually thought this was your position--that our conscious choices are in fact illusory and that all decisions can be reduced to the level of brain processes. That is what I meant by conscious choice being outside of the causal chain--it isn't causal because consciousness is itself epiphenomenal.

You were arguing for a hard deterministic position before and saying that free will was subjective and illusory, and now you seem to have moved to compatibilism instead. So we are no longer as far apart as we initially seemed.

I would still be interested in an example of what you see as an exercise of free will, and where you see causality ans indeterminism being involved.
Mmm, that's tricky, since my ontology is pretty much the photo-negative of yours. I can translate a fair amount of it over to naturalistic terms, but the way I look at free will is deeply theological and cannot be flipped upside down.

As far as the two-stage model of free will goes, I think this article is a pretty useful way of conceiving it (amusingly, since it's actually arguing against free will). The brain's ability to generate multiple action plans might seem like the sort of determinism that is outside our control, but indeterminism is also to be found here, as none of these plans are actualized until we make the decision to act upon them. Again, fairly Aristotelian--just turn Many Worlds on its head.

Aristotlian metaphysics is interesting background material, but given the advances in physical knowledge, I'm not sure how useful it is to modern metaphysics.

Eh, the assault on Aristotelian metaphysics happened centuries ago. There's been a growing trend these days towards defending its continued relevancy, even outside of Catholic circles--see, for example, Brian Ellis's The Philosophy of Nature: A Guide to the New Essentialism, or Tuomas Takho's article In Defense of Aristotelian Metaphysics, which is at least accessible online.

I'm not a convinced Aristotelian, but it does seem to have a lot going for it. I won't toss my Catholic resources at you, but I can hunt down more of the non-theistic work in the field if you want.
 
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Justatruthseeker

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But the definition is too simple if it involves conflating multiple different meanings of the word "determine" into one concept. Philippa Foot discusses this particular problem in her article Free Will As Involving Determinism, which you can find part of in the Google preview here.
To simple or actually too complex? Wouldn't a simple definition leave only a single possibility, while an overly complex one allow for multiple possibilities? Occam's razor is accepting the simplest possible scientific definition or theoretical explanation to fit the data, not a complex one that can morph as needed to fit the observations. I would think simpler would always be better.

Mmm, that's tricky, since my ontology is pretty much the photo-negative of yours. I can translate a fair amount of it over to naturalistic terms, but the way I look at free will is deeply theological and cannot be flipped upside down.
Agreed. It was the act of "knowing" that made us like unto God in image. Which coincides with my belief that God is Energy/Mind/Thought.

As far as the two-stage model of free will goes, I think this article is a pretty useful way of conceiving it (amusingly, since it's actually arguing against free will). The brain's ability to generate multiple action plans might seem like the sort of determinism that is outside our control, but indeterminism is also to be found here, as none of these plans are actualized until we make the decision to act upon them. Again, fairly Aristotelian--just turn Many Worlds on its head.

Eh, the assault on Aristotelian metaphysics happened centuries ago. There's been a growing trend these days towards defending its continued relevancy, even outside of Catholic circles--see, for example, Brian Ellis's The Philosophy of Nature: A Guide to the New Essentialism, or Tuomas Takho's article In Defense of Aristotelian Metaphysics, which is at least accessible online.

I'm not a convinced Aristotelian, but it does seem to have a lot going for it. I won't toss my Catholic resources at you, but I can hunt down more of the non-theistic work in the field if you want.
Interesting article. I found this agreeable right off.

"In contrast, a second model of perception, which goes back to Aristotle and Thomas Aquinas, stresses that the brain actively looks for the information it predicts to be present in the environment, based on an intention or goal"

In simplistic terms we look for patterns (information) all around us. It is why we can see rabbits, horses, dragons, etc in clouds. We are a species that is basically a pattern recognition machine. But unlike machines we can hold the concept that a specific pattern can mean different things based upon the description applied to it.
 
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Justatruthseeker

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I found this interesting, Not just because of the subject, but because of why we can't hit a fly in flight, we "predict" where it will be, but it isn't even where we see it. It fits the Aristitole thought that we predict ahead of time what we will see.

 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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Water is made of particles, yes?

These particles undergo a wavelike motion, yes?
Yes to the first, and no to the second. The water molecules in water waves follow roughly circular motions vertically, parallel to the wave direction.

So if light was made of particles undergoing a wavelike motion......
It's completely different. For example, in the double-slit experiment, a single photon can be shown to 'interfere' with itself.

Now lets look at electron beams. They produce patterns similar to light in slit tests. But theorists no longer conjecture that an electron is an actual particle, but is instead a wave.
Not so fast - carbon 60 molecules (named 'Buckyballs' after Buckmister Fuller) produce interference patterns in the double-slit experiment. I don't recall anyone calling them waves...

From the examples you give, it's clear that you need to learn more about quantum mechanics - and it's worth it, it really is weird and fascinating.

So light is not dual in nature. It is not made up of discrete particles undergoing a wavelike motion, but is a true wave.
It's called an electromagnetic wave, and photons can behave as discrete quantised particles, so it's more complicated than that. In physics there are all kinds of waves - are they all 'true' waves?

I bring this up to show that what we conceive of as being one thing or another may not always be as simple as it seems on it's face.
Quite; a pity the example wasn't quite right ;)

So what we think are random events in particle physics, may not be random at all, just our inability to conceive of a way they could be affected because we haven't considered all the variables.
All local hidden variable theories have been ruled out by the violation of the Bell inequalities in Bell test experiments.

However, there are non-local interpretations of QM with hidden variables (e.g. de Broglie Bohm pilot wave theory), and interpretations where the randomness is an artefact of our limited perspective after observation (Everettian 'Many Worlds'). 'Many Worlds' is the simplest, and increasingly popular among physicists who care about interpretations.

That and the Copenhagen interpretation of quantum physics is a bunch of bull excrement IMO.
I'm with you on the von Neumann-Wigner (conscious collapse) version of Copenhagen, but there are various other versions that have plausible explanations for wavefunction collapse. The problem they all have is that wavefunction collapse itself is ad-hoc, it has no mathematical derivation.

Max Tegmark (not a Copenhagenist) has said that even if it's wrong, and the wavefunction doesn't collapse (his view), it's still a useful approximation to do the calculations as if it does (because that's what we see).
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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I found this interesting, Not just because of the subject, but because of why we can't hit a fly in flight, we "predict" where it will be, but it isn't even where we see it. It fits the Aristitole thought that we predict ahead of time what we will see.

It's even stranger than he describes, because when you open your eyes, not only do you not see 'now', but the crisp, detailed world you perceive is not what your eyes actually see - it's an internal model. The eyes don't have the detail and resolution to present a photorealistic real-time image of the world, so we build up an internal model of what we expect to see based on past experience, and use the information from the eyes to check for conflicts and update the model if necessary.

This the sort of image our eyes actually see:
287386-d55133525c56162bbf28fb3d1b4a50b9.jpg

Even the internal model isn't really a detailed model of reality, except at the focus of visual attention; the rest is a bunch of expectations of detail, based on the understanding that if you looked directly at it, it would appear to be detailed.
 

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devolved

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Its possible advanced quantuum computers might indeed achieve self-awareness and even experience something like qualia. .

The human brain and body may be more like a radio receiver for consciousness. So even rocks and trees may have a primitive kind of consciousness, but as life advances it becomes more developed until self-awareness is reached.

Well, in certain context, computers may have a certain level of "self-awareness", which seems more of a "program" than what we make it out to be. I know it's a "reductionist" view of this subject matter, but self-awareness is merely feedback loop that evaluates data in context of certain broader conceptual coherence.

The reason why I don't think we'll have quantum consciousness, or quantum computers for that matter, is that whatever brain function we externalize and replicate, is actually a fine-tuned optimization of extremely complex process at every level of complexity of that process.

Likewise, it's fine-tuned not to solve problems or merely recognize and filter out patterns, but to do so solving completely different sets of problems that we are building IAs for. Thus, brain structure is not like that of any computer we currently have. If we want to emulate brain, as one of the Russian neuro-scientists puts it, we'd need a billion processors, and another billion Chinese people with soldering irons constantly forming and breaking connections between these processors.

Therefore, we emulate certain very specific processes, and we can optimize these to perform "better", but these are only "better", because we don't need these to be "better" to survive, hence our brains are tuned to provide us with functionality that we actually need... and it's usually not about multiplying large numbers in our head.

Likewise you can't emulate reality faster than "reality is emulating itself". That's the paradox with claims about quantum computing, which is why I think quantum computing will likely never live up to its hype.
 
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