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Neurologist outlines why machines can’t think

Silmarien

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What did you find difficult? The fact that certain theories tested to be 99.8% correct in the solar system need 96% convoluted ad-hoc theory added to them outside it, but not where tested to be 99.8% accurate? Or the fact that not a single experiment has ever shown that the theory tested to a 99.8% accuracy inside the solar system is the dominating force in the state of matter that makes up 99.9% of the universe?

I'm not sure what you're talking about at all. Tossing around seemingly random percentages is throwing me off.

No, a million black haired rabbits moved close to the arctic circle becoming white haired rabbits is not evolution.....

Sure it is. Bacteria is evolving constantly--microevolution is not somehow not evolution.

Who cares? they are gonna jump on you anyways because your discussing metaphysical things. Can't win for losing so why care what they think?

Because I don't care for being associated with views I categorically reject.

Ok, criticism was the wrong word. They adopt materialism and co-opt it as if only it can be used for evolution. Like your incorrect belief that black rabbits becoming white rabbits is evolution. You have simply co-opted adaptation to your end, when it is not solely an evolutionary necessity.

For example, antiviral medicines. No virus has ever become another species of virus in the entire history of medicine. So belief in evolution is not required for anti-viral research. just the understanding that virus adapt within their own species.......

Well, yes. Thinking that evolution immediately entails materialism is unfortunately common, but that is completely unrelated to black rabbits becoming white rabbits. I am really not sure what you're trying to argue.

For example, antiviral medicines. No virus has ever become another species of virus in the entire history of medicine. So belief in evolution is not required for anti-viral research. just the understanding that virus adapt within their own species.......

The history of medicine is not very long, and species are a fairly artificial categorization anyway. Do you think there's some sort of clear line separating one species from another? I do not, and I am the one who's been literally arguing for abstract entities here.
 
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Silmarien

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Well, yes, of course. All of the initial assumptions we take on would beg the question, including Platonism. Going back to the Muchhousen's trilemma, there's no real way around question begging in context of certain initial chains of axiomatic assumptions.

Sure. I'm only defending Platonism as a valid possibility and not a matter of conceptual confusion. I prefer it because the only coherent alternative seems to be a form of substantialism that frankly strikes me as magical, and I prefer to keep my default ontology as simple as possible.

Well, these would exist as a combination of angles, because angles exist. Would your conceptual square exist if there were no angles to refer to in reality?

Angles are conceptual too. They're geometric.

You keep splitting form and matter as though these are two distinct concepts. Why do you think of these as separate?

Because I literally don't believe in matter. I suspect that it can be reduced to structure, structure, and nothing but structure.

Do you think mathematics could exist as a mere standalone concept, and not as a tool that's used to map and quantize material reality?

Yes, I do. What's more, I don't believe what is being mapped through the use of mathematical models is material at all. Because I don't believe in matter.
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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Coming from someone that says they understand history your answer is surprising, considering that almost every 200 years everything the top experts thought was true has been completely overturned.
1. I haven't ever said I understand history.
2. "...almost every 200 years everything the top experts thought was true has been completely overturned." is false.

Double fail.
 
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devolved

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I'm only defending Platonism as a valid possibility and not a matter of conceptual confusion. I prefer it because the only coherent alternative seems to be a form of substantialism that frankly strikes me as magical, and I prefer to keep my default ontology as simple as possible.

First, I think any modern physicist wouldn't argue Aristotelian presuppositions as these were originally formulated. Materialism is not what is used to be. If you ask any physicist what is matter, they will likely explain it in context of some structural model, which would mean that matter and substance is a systematically observable phenomenon that can be described by labeling attributes.

I personally don't find quantum physics very enlightening, and it personally seems to me the whole concept of physics going too far into a direction where presuppositions that were programmed into scientific instruments of today end up feeding back the "blips" that supposed to mean collision and trajectories of particles so small that these could only be detected from some aggregate events. So... much of the modern experimental physics is in fact deriving assumptions from aggregate events.

So, in context of this thread, I do think that quantum computing is built around false assumptions, and I would be really surprised (actually shocked) if it ever came to deliver on its promises.

But, I don't really see the above as the reason to chug materialism as "wrong assumption", given that any of the assumption of these kind are axiomatic, and it's useful in context of certain scientific methodology where we need to describe attributes and ratios of "something".

I get the Berklean "Ideas can only describe ideas", but ideas wouldn't crush your leg, and thus resulting in mere idea of pain :). You can certainly conceptualize these as ideas, but it just doesn't have the same ring of urgency than substantial reality. I hope you see where I'm going with that.

Angles are conceptual too. They're geometric.

Yes, my point is that we have geometric angles because we derive these from observable "angles" in reality. Thus, reality, or in the very least our perception of it, is the reference point... since the concept of angles doesn't "platonianize" ;) from vaccuum.

Because I literally don't believe in matter. I suspect that it can be reduced to structure, structure, and nothing but structure.

Well, structure is merely a concept of a pattern. It's not something matter can be "reduced to". It's how it is perceived. You are merely cutting off the continuum at the level of interpretation by the brain... again you get the Berklean "Ideas can only describe ideas" and it's correct at the level of the brain. But it's very presumptuous to extend it to "therefore only ideas exist".

I hope you see where my problem with this view is.
 
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Silmarien

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1. I haven't ever said I understand history.
2. "...almost every 200 years everything the top experts thought was true has been completely overturned." is false.

Double fail.

Well, every 200 years is a bit of an exaggeration, but Kuhnian paradigm shift is a real thing. I think it's only happened twice, though, unless something pre-Copernican counts.

First, I think any modern physicist wouldn't argue Aristotelian presuppositions as these were originally formulated. Materialism is not what is used to be. If you ask any physicist what is matter, they will likely explain it in context of some structural model, which would mean that matter and substance is a systematically observable phenomenon that can be described by labeling attributes.

Some physicists actually come close to pure Aristotelianism. They update his physics but only tweak the metaphysics. There are genuine hylomorphists out there.

As for materialism, I don't really care about it. If matter can be reduced to structure ontologically, then materialism is an illusory concept, and if it cannot, then we have no idea what matter really is and materialism is simply meaningless. Either way, as a label it tells me nothing.

Well, structure is merely a concept of a pattern. It's not something matter can be "reduced to". It's how it is perceived. You are merely cutting off the continuum at the level of interpretation by the brain... again you get the Berklean "Ideas can only describe ideas" and it's correct at the level of the brain. But it's very presumptuous to extend it to "therefore only ideas exist".

I hope you see where my problem with this view is.

I'm not a subjective idealist. I have nothing to do with Berkeley, so you are taking issue with a view that is distinct from my own. I'm somewhat closer to Tegmark and his mathematical universe, crossed with Hegel.

You also seem to be advocating a pretty extreme version of empiricism here, which is seriously debatable as well. Lots of question begging against approaches that mix in rationalism and a priori knowledge.
 
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devolved

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Either way, as a label it tells me nothing.

I'd say that it's a label that describes a view that conceptual is derived as a consequence of interaction between "material", which we can describe using consistent attributes, ratios and causal relationships of what we would label as matter. It's more of a methodology than it is a philosophy. It's something one can adopt for conducting scientific research. I agree that it's not necessary, but it's helpful when we communicate reality as a structure.

I'm not a subjective idealist. I have nothing to do with Berkeley, so you are taking issue with a view that is distinct from my own. I'm somewhat closer to Tegmark and his mathematical universe, crossed with Hegel.

I did not say that you are. I'm saying that there is a common theme that runs between answering the question - "How do we describe reality beyond our mind in terms of describing how it functions".

I personally don't think quantum physics is necessary in that context, and we can just do very well describing ratios of any given phenomenon. I think that model is secondary to ratios when it comes to usefulness of something like quantum physics.

So, it all depends as to what we are trying to accomplish.
 
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Silmarien

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I'd say that it's a label that describes a view that conceptual is derived as a consequence of interaction between "material", which we can describe using consistent attributes, ratios and causal relationships of what we would label as matter. It's more of a methodology than it is a philosophy. It's something one can adopt for conducting scientific research. I agree that it's not necessary, but it's helpful when we communicate reality as a structure.

I'm interested in ontology, not methodology or language games or any of the rest of the anti-metaphysical nonsense that people come up with. I don't care about frameworks for conducting scientific research--it's the question of what the results of science are actually telling us about reality that interests me, and that is much more difficult. And there are certainly multiple possibilities, but I seem to share the naturalist's preference for simplicity and reductionism.

Though my concerns are more theological: the cosmological argument succeeds but the traditional theists have not successfully defended their interpretation of it. Not while absolute idealism is still standing. I have tried to kill it, and I have failed. (Not that absolute idealism is much different than theism, but it is more flexible with less baggage attached.)

I did not say that you are. I'm saying that there is a common theme that runs between answering the question - "How do we describe reality beyond our mind in terms of describing how it functions".

I personally don't think quantum physics is necessary in that context, and we can just do very well describing ratios of any given phenomenon. I think that model is secondary to ratios when it comes to usefulness of something like quantum physics.

So, it all depends as to what we are trying to accomplish.

Yes, you come across as very Kantian. I think that even transcendental idealism is more interesting than it appears. What does it mean that our minds have the power to build and structure a phenomenal reality for us? You still end up with structure as an aspect of reality independent of our models, since the mind is a product of reality and not external to it, and it needs to be structured to impose structures of its own. The hard Kantian divide between mind and reality seems to fail unless you want to be a substance dualist. Which... no thanks.
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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Sure, but predictions don't occur in a vacuum. I have no trouble believing that within a certain metaphysical framework, multiverse models are predicted, but that doesn't make it relevant outside of that particular metaphysical framework. If the metaphysics are wrong, so is the model, and if you need as convoluted a model as this to make sense of modern physics, perhaps the problem lies in the initial metaphysics.
That's true; all multiverse models come with caveats and assumptions; but this is also true of scientific theories. The reasoning is, roughly, 'if the theory is correct - and it all its testable predictions have been verified - then there's a reasonable expectation that its predictions that we can't currently test are also likely to be correct. This is how, for example, the Higgs boson could be predicted 40 years before we had the technology to observe it.

But the models are not always 'convoluted'. The Schrodinger equation that describes how a quantum system evolves over time is relatively simple and elegant, and the behaviour of particles at quantum scales that it describes is demonstrably counter-intuitive and unlike what happens at the familiar macro-scale; but matches our observations. That's just how it is. The Everettian multiverse is the result of applying the Schrodinger equation to both observer and observed without ad-hoc additions. Maybe additional considerations should apply, but applying them just to avoid the multiverse is hard to justify.

My concern here would be how goal-seeking behavior can be accounted for at all on a materialistic ontology. How does non-teleological behavior give rise to teleological behavior?
As I said previously, concepts like 'goal-seeking' and 'teleological' are just high-level abstractions to describe certain kinds of behaviour. Preciely how you define it, and where you draw the line between what is goal-seeking and what is not goal-seeking behaviour is a matter of interpretation.

For example, in Aristotelian physics, gravity was described in terms of the tendency of objects to seek their 'natural' position. These days we generally reserve it for living things, things that have evolved.

A hypothetical example: when an amoeba moves towards a food source, we can trace the causal chain from the chemical gradient of food molecules that diffuse from the food source to the amoeba's cell membrane and are transported through it, and follow the chain of internal chemical reactions that result in the amoeba moving toward the densest concentration of food molecules. When the amoeba has absorbed and metabolised a certain amount of food, the concentration of internal metabolic by-products 'switches off' the chemical pathways that enable detection of food molecules, or disables movement along food molecule gradients, and suppresses food absorption. [note: this is hypothetical - the actual mechanisms may be different]

It is possible to describe the amoeba's behaviour in high-level teleological terms - it was hungry, so it sought out food and ate until it was sated. In those terms, it would appear to be obvious goal-seeking behaviour, yet, at a lower level, it could be fully described in terms of causal activity (chemistry). The goal would be satisfying hunger, and 'hunger' would be the state where there are insufficient metabolic by-products to disable the pathways that enable the sensing, movement towards, and absorption of food.

Perhaps 'goal-seeking' should only apply to creatures that have a nervous system, or even a brain - an ant, maybe... But even in an ant, it's possible to see how an internal physiological state or an external stimulus (e.g. pheromone) can lead to a certain pattern of behaviour, and how changes in those internal states (e.g. resulting from previous behaviour) or stimuli can change that pattern of behaviour or trigger a new pattern.

The more complex the behaviours and the more complex the brain that generates them, the more difficult it is to trace the causal sequences involved, but I see no reason to assume that, at some level of complexity, behaviour - emergent or otherwise - no longer has causal origins.

If you can propose an example of some human behaviour for which you are unable to imagine a causal history, I'd be interested to hear it - and to see if I can provide a plausible causal history.

We've already hit a serious snag, as we need to account for the existence of pleasure and reward circuitry at all. Pleasure and pain are phenomena; why does the former supervene on one set of circuitry and the latter on a separate set? Why is one good and one bad? We are immediately into the realm of value judgments once positive and negative reinforcement is being invoked, so it seems that hardwiring via natural selection presupposes the prior existence of values.
As I described previously, the values are ultimately those associated with evolutionary selective advantage, i.e. successful reproduction. Pleasure and reward are associated with behaviours that have a selective advantage (are 'good' for us in evolutionary terms), pain, disgust, and other negative sensations are associated with selective disadvantage ('bad' for us in evolutionary terms). From our distant evolutionary history, individuals with behavioural tendencies to avoid damage, infection, extreme risk, etc., were more likely to survive to reproduce and pass on the genetic components of those tendencies; those that tended to seek out high-quality food, mate frequently, protect their family, etc. were more likely to successfully pass on the genetic components of those tendencies.

These behavioural tendencies are typically closely associated with physiological responses - the threat of a predator would trigger a flood of adrenaline and stress hormones, because those responses were, historically, the most successful in supporting fight or flight and for surviving any damage that might occur. These physiological responses are the sensations of fear. They're usually triggered by external stimuli, and in turn trigger emotional states - so the physiological effects associated with fear will make someone feel fearful, etc. There are similar explanations for other physiological/emotional/behavioural states.

It is to be expected that the activities and physiological responses associated with things you have evolved to avoid are aversive, i.e. seen as unpleasant, and the activities and physiological responses associated with things you have evolved to seek out and engage in are attractive, i.e. seen as pleasant.

Social, cultural, & religious indoctrination provides a whole new set of values and associations for what are 'good' and 'bad' behaviours, which may conflict with more basic sensations ("I know it's wrong, but it feels good"), but the brain is flexible and adaptable and can learn to suppress, modify, redirect, or sublimate behaviours considered undesirable.
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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Well, every 200 years is a bit of an exaggeration, but Kuhnian paradigm shift is a real thing. I think it's only happened twice, though, unless something pre-Copernican counts.
Kuhn made a good case for paradigm shifts, which hadn't previously been recognised, but he rather overstated his case (arguably, he had to for it to be taken seriously). It happens, but it's not as ubiquitous as he suggested.

If matter can be reduced to structure ontologically, then materialism is an illusory concept, and if it cannot, then we have no idea what matter really is and materialism is simply meaningless.
I don't see how we can ever say what matter 'really is', i.e. what our universe is 'made of', because we can only describe it in terms of things we are familiar with, i.e. things that are themselves made of it - you end up with the tautology that everything's made of the stuff that everything's made of.

Also, the question about the meaning of 'illusory' arises again; rather than illusion, we might instead say that materialism is the description of an emergent reality.

I'm somewhat closer to Tegmark and his mathematical universe, crossed with Hegel.
Tegmark makes an interesting argument for the universe-as-mathematical-structure (I'm reading his book 'The Mathematical Universe'), but there's something about his logic, where he addresses the objection that, to be real, the mathematical structure should describe something, that doesn't feel right, but I can't put my finger on it...
 
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Silmarien

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The more complex the behaviours and the more complex the brain that generates them, the more difficult it is to trace the causal sequences involved, but I see no reason to assume that, at some level of complexity, behaviour - emergent or otherwise - no longer has causal origins.

In this case, you actually seem to be eliminating goal-directed behavior. Does rationality even exist anymore, or is computation something that can be reduced to chemical reactions? If your ontology eliminates reason, I think you are in trouble.

Of course, the other approach is to say that the amoeba's behavior is inherently goal directed, and the chemical reactions only show one side of the story. But then we end of with natural teleology even at the inorganic level. (Of course, if the options are between that and eliminating rationality, I'm fine with immanent teleology. Though I'd rather take the Platonic way out and focus on structures instead. Then computation doesn't have to be reduced to something that is no longer computational.)

If you can propose an example of some human behaviour for which you are unable to imagine a causal history, I'd be interested to hear it - and to see if I can provide a plausible causal history.

You have still not provided a plausible causal history for pain and pleasure. Your model involves a vicious circle where the behavior is simultaneously caused by and causing the positive and negative reinforcement.

Pleasure is associated with behavior that has a selective advantage. Fine and good, but if pleasure is also a positive reinforcement that encourages advantageous behavior, then which comes first? How does pleasure become associated with advantageous behavior in the first place when sensation is not real. Good, bad, pleasure, and pain are all abstractions on a materialist ontology--they do not exist, so how can they serve as reinforcements? What role do they play within evolutionary processes? None, apparently. What is pleasure? What is pain? If everything that is good felt bad, and everything that is bad felt good, it would make no difference on a materialistic ontology. Ecstasy could be agony and vice versa, and the result would be the same.

This is the problem with abstractions. They are unnecessary. They are superfluous. The amoeba need not feel hungry at all if its behavior is reducible to chemistry. Chalmers' question of metaphysical zombies comes into play: could all of this be going on without phenomenal experience? If so, we are into dualism, and if not, then phenomenal experience is an ontologically fundamental aspect of reality... but then we're straight into panpsychism, if not ditching naturalism entirely. If you want to call it an abstraction, then fine, but you still need to account for it. Why does physical reality include phenomenal abstractions?

My concerns are not at the level of human abstractions. They never have been. They are absolutely at the amoeba level. I do not buy just so evolutionary stories whereby phenomenal experience can be reduced to chemical reactions, because they actually don't account for anything.

Also, the question about the meaning of 'illusory' arises again; rather than illusion, we might instead say that materialism is the description of an emergent reality.

I am fine with this, but then materialism becomes compatible with viewpoints that are traditionally the exact opposite. There are a number of approaches in which matter is emergent from mind, and I would not be comfortable labeling any emergent idealism as materialism. ^_^

Tegmark makes an interesting argument for the universe-as-mathematical-structure (I'm reading his book 'The Mathematical Universe'), but there's something about his logic, where he addresses the objection that, to be real, the mathematical structure should describe something, that doesn't feel right, but I can't put my finger on it...

My problem with focusing so strongly on the formal and structural side of it is that structure is not causal. Mathematics as inert abstract objects cannot ground reality. The idea that 1+1=2 doesn't make two cats pop into existence.

I don't see how any of it can work as a naturalistic ontology--you really need to go all the way to Plotinus and Pythagoras and move into theistic waters for it to be coherent. You need the infinite monad, the something that is nothing, or the abstract is never going to be anything but abstract.
 
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Justatruthseeker

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I'm not sure what you're talking about at all. Tossing around seemingly random percentages is throwing me off.
Very well. Gravitational theory has been tested to a 99.8% accuracy within the solar system. Yet the very second we attempt to apply that theory as the dominating force in a universe 99.9% plasma, we suddenly have to add 96% ad-hoc theory not needed where it was just tested to a 99.8% accuracy.

Worse yet, in not a single plasma experiment performed in any laboratory for the last 200+ years, has anything but particle physics and electromagnetic theory been used as the dominating force at work.

Hence my agreement with your logical conclusion: "Sure, but predictions don't occur in a vacuum. I have no trouble believing that within a certain metaphysical framework, multiverse models are predicted, but that doesn't make it relevant outside of that particular metaphysical framework. If the metaphysics are wrong, so is the model, and if you need as convoluted a model as this to make sense of modern physics, perhaps the problem lies in the initial metaphysics."

The initial model was the belief that gravitational forces are the dominant forces at work in the entire universe. But as per actual plasma experiments we have found that gravity is not the dominant force at work in plasma. So by applying the wrong theory as the dominant force at work, they took a theory 99.8% correct and had to add convoluted ad-hoc models to make it fit a state of matter it was never the dominating force in to begin with.

Sure it is. Bacteria is evolving constantly--microevolution is not somehow not evolution.
Change within the species is not evolution. Creationists and evolutionists agree that microevolution (and natural selection) occur. Minor change has been observed since history began. But notice how often evolutionists give evidence for microevolution to support macroevolution. It is macroevolution—which requires new abilities and increasing complexity, resulting from new genetic information—that is at the center of the creation-evolution controversy.

Microevolution vs. Macroevolution. Notice that macroevolution would require an upward change in the complexity of certain traits and organs. Microevolution involves only “horizontal” (or even downward) changes—no increasing complexity. Also note that all creationists agree that natural selection occurs. While natural selection does not result in macroevolution, it accounts for many variations within a very narrow range.

There is no evolution which requires macroevolution, only adaptation or variation within the species.


Well, yes. Thinking that evolution immediately entails materialism is unfortunately common, but that is completely unrelated to black rabbits becoming white rabbits. I am really not sure what you're trying to argue.
See above. Black rabbits becoming white rabbits still ends up with rabbits. No macroevolution occurred....


The history of medicine is not very long, and species are a fairly artificial categorization anyway. Do you think there's some sort of clear line separating one species from another? I do not, and I am the one who's been literally arguing for abstract entities here.

Sure there is. Do you think a dog is the same species as cat? You can't see that clear distinctive line between all cats and all dogs? You can't tell that all bears are one species and all deer are another? The lines between species are clearly drawn to any that actually are willing to look.
 
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Silmarien

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Change within the species is not evolution. Creationists and evolutionists agree that microevolution (and natural selection) occur. Minor change has been observed since history began. But notice how often evolutionists give evidence for microevolution to support macroevolution. It is macroevolution—which requires new abilities and increasing complexity, resulting from new genetic information—that is at the center of the creation-evolution controversy.

Where exactly is the controversy? Do you not believe that God could have set up the universe to allow for life forms to develop and branch off into new species over time? Do you believe that God would craft the universe in such an inept fashion that an act of special creation was required with every new species?

I do not understand Creationism at all. I really don't. I don't even care about the science, because the theology is equally problematic. Every argument for Creationism is a strike against omnipotence--why does it matter that new genetic information is required? Is God incapable of configuring physical reality so that new genetic information can be incorporated in DNA? At least go the Intelligent Design route and insist that evolution involves direct intervention--I think it's in serious error, but at least it's both scientifically and theologically plausible.

Sure there is. Do you think a dog is the same species as cat? You can't see that clear distinctive line between all cats and all dogs? You can't tell that all bears are one species and all deer are another? The lines between species are clearly drawn to any that actually are willing to look.

The better question is whether a dog is the same species as a wolf. The answer is currently yes, but at some point the two will presumably split off. (Though I have come across Creationists who held that sufficiently dissimilar dog breeds were created that way and not bred by humans.)

There was also observed speciation involving Galapagos finches last year: https://www.sciencealert.com/darwin...pecies-in-real-time-two-generations-galapagos

So no, not so clear.
 
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SkyWriting

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This article is an interesting discussion about why it is not AI that is a threat to humanity. Rather it is humanity that may use AI to destroy itself.
https://mindmatters.today/2018/neurosurgeon-outlines-why-machines-cant-think/
A cornerstone of the development of artificial intelligence is the pervasive assumption that machines can, or will, think. Watson, a question-answering computer, beats the best Jeopardy players, and anyone who plays chess has had the humiliation of being beaten by a chess engine. (I lose to even the most elementary levels of the chess program on my iPhone). Does this mean that computers can think as well as (or better than) humans think? No, it does not. Computers are not “smart” in any way. Machines are utterly incapable of thought.

The assertion that computation is thought, hence thought is computation, is called computer functionalism. It is the theory that the human mind is to the brain as software is to hardware. The mind is what the brain does; the brain “runs” the mind, as a computer runs a program. However, careful examination of natural intelligence (the human mind) and artificial intelligence (computation) shows that this is a profound misunderstanding.

What is the hallmark of human thought, and what distinguishes thoughts from material things? Franz Brentano (1838–1917), a German philosopher in the 19th century, answered this question decisively. All thoughts are about something, whereas no material object is inherently “about” anything. This property of aboutness is called intentionality, and intentionality is the hallmark of the mind. Every thought that I have shares the property of aboutness—I think about my vacation, or about politics, or about my family. But no material object is, in itself, “about” anything. A mountain or a rock or a pen lacks aboutness—they are just objects. Only a mind has intentionality, and intentionality is the hallmark of the mind.....

....But to believe that machines can think or that human thought is a kind of computation is a profound error. Belief in this fundamental error about AI will lead us away from, not toward, the truth about AI. Machines, for example, will never become malevolent and harm mankind. Men will act with malevolence, using machines, or men will use machines in ways that (unintentionally) harm others. Men can use cars malevolently and carelessly and can thus harm others. But the malevolence and careless is in the man, not in the car.

To paraphrase Pogo: we have met AI, and AI is us.

By Denyse O'Leary


There is a theory that quantum entanglement is the "secret sauce" behind self awareness and this prevents machines from becoming self-aware. The idea is that our brains become entangled at some point, (conception or...I dunno when) and therefore each section of the brain is fully aware of the rest. This was tested and early results showed that parts of the brain responded to each other faster than the speed of nerve impulses should allow for. This may be God's design and unlikely to be duplicated.
 
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Strathos

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There is a theory that quantum entanglement is the "secret sauce" behind self awareness and this prevents machines from becoming self-aware. The idea is that our brains become entangled at some point, (conception or...I dunno when) and therefore each section of the brain is fully aware of the rest. This was tested and early results showed that parts of the brain responded to each other faster than the speed of nerve impulses should allow for. This may be God's design and unlikely to be duplicated.

I've seen papers criticizing that idea such as this.
 
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SkyWriting

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I've seen papers criticizing that idea such as this.
This theory was about communication and cognisance rather than operation.
But thanks for the response.
 
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Anguspure

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There is a theory that quantum entanglement is the "secret sauce" behind self awareness and this prevents machines from becoming self-aware. The idea is that our brains become entangled at some point, (conception or...I dunno when) and therefore each section of the brain is fully aware of the rest. This was tested and early results showed that parts of the brain responded to each other faster than the speed of nerve impulses should allow for. This may be God's design and unlikely to be duplicated.
Also lends an interesting thought to the idea of 2 people becoming one in marriage.
 
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Uber Genius

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I specified "hypothetical" because Strong Artificial Intelligence does not exist yet. This doesn't make it impossible, and physicalism is not the only ontology that allows for it. Searle's approach to mind probably doesn't, but his biological not-quite-dualism seems specifically designed around ruling out strong AI.

I must have misread your post as I thought you were arguing it had been done or was about to be.

Secondly Searle's Chinese room was offered to correct popular misconceptions about AI but is generally useful for arguing against property dualism, and physicalism.

Strange to see this topic come up out here.

I did a portion of my grad research on Hopfield networks as they applied to manufacturing systems back in the 1990s. When I worked in the robotics lab we used to tell the undergrads we were inventing the terminator.
 
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Uber Genius

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Here we have a plethora of arguments from ignorance involving quantum mechanics, and quantum computers as we explain complex things not properly understood by people outside the field, misreported by the press, then popularized by Neil deGrasse Tyson, then finally expounded on by CF members.

I love the human ability to produce ad hoc answers to almost any question. Still waiting for the nano computer conspiracists to show up. What about everett's model where every possibilty is instantiated as a separate albeit unverifiable world.
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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In this case, you actually seem to be eliminating goal-directed behavior. Does rationality even exist anymore, or is computation something that can be reduced to chemical reactions?
Yes, rationality still exists - it's the capacity for sophisticated applied logic; it's computational. And yes, computation can be done with chemical reactions - for non-trivial computation, living things generally use neural networks, a non-algorithmic form of computation.

I'm not eliminating goal-directed behaviour. As I mentioned previously, these are different levels of description, and it doesn't make sense to mix them. In the last post, I was trying to query the point at which the levels change and we consider certain patterns of behaviour to qualify as goal-directed, e.g the amoeba - does it's food seeking qualify as goal-directed? if not, what criteria must be met - some level of abstraction?

I suspect we often draw the line by criteria that are only indirectly relevant, e.g. cognitive sophistication: self-awareness, consciousness - which really just kicks the can down the road until we try to find at what level behaviour is considered to demonstrate self-awareness or consciousness... The problem with concepts in emergent schemas is that they tend to be relational and generally opaque to reduction; the concepts and semantics of one level are meaningless at lower levels - as temperature and pressure are meaningless at the level of atoms & molecules.

Of course, the other approach is to say that the amoeba's behavior is inherently goal directed, and the chemical reactions only show one side of the story. But then we end of with natural teleology even at the inorganic level.
So how do we distinguish 'inherently goal-directed' behaviours from non-inherently goal-directed behaviours, what are the distinguishing criteria?

Maybe semantic utility comes into the equation - how useful is a teleological description or interpretation of the behaviour? Is it useful to say the amoeba seeks out food because it's hungry and stops because it's sated, even though it may simply be the result of a couple of interlocking chemical feedback loops? and if it is, why is the same not true of chemical feedback loops in vitro? I suggest that, overriding utility, the key is attribution of agency; we can view the amoeba is an independent, self-contained entity that acts as a result of changes to its internal state - an agent. Teleology implies agency - without agency, such phenomena are teleological by observer-based interpretation, i.e. the Dennettian 'intentional stance'.

We could say that two chemicals 'want' to react together in order to generate a product because one has electrons to share and the conditions are right, but when the 'reason' or 'motivation' obviously reduces to thermodynamics, it's hard to attribute agency... we generally reserve that kind of description for children, who seem to find it easier to understand the world in terms of agency and teleology.

You have still not provided a plausible causal history for pain and pleasure. Your model involves a vicious circle where the behavior is simultaneously caused by and causing the positive and negative reinforcement.
The evolutionary explanation seems quite reasonable - creatures that tend to avoid dangerous or damaging stimuli have a selective advantage; multicellular creatures evolved nervous systems to coordinate their responses to environmental stimuli. Signals indicating physical damage would evoke strong aversive responses. When the signal processing became complex enough to support learning, the preceding stimuli and actions would be associated with those signals, conditioning the aversive response. With the development of simple awareness and interpretation of those signals as feelings/sensations, the strong feeling/sensations that were associated with physical damage and strongly conditioned an aversive response were, and are, what we call pain. A similar explanation can be given for the development of rewarding or pleasurable sensations.

I can't give you chapter and verse on the development of the awareness of feelings, that remains obscure, but they seem to be mediated via the brain stem, suggesting a relatively early evolutionary origin (Antonio Damasio describes some of the neurological research in 'Self Comes to Mind - Constructing the Conscious Brain').

Pleasure is associated with behavior that has a selective advantage. Fine and good, but if pleasure is also a positive reinforcement that encourages advantageous behavior, then which comes first?
They co-evolve; a creature that tends to perform that kind of behaviour is more likely to be successful; and if associated with a sensation of pleasure or reward, that kind of behaviour will be reinforced.

How does pleasure become associated with advantageous behavior in the first place when sensation is not real. Good, bad, pleasure, and pain are all abstractions on a materialist ontology--they do not exist, so how can they serve as reinforcements? What role do they play within evolutionary processes? None, apparently. What is pleasure? What is pain? If everything that is good felt bad, and everything that is bad felt good, it would make no difference on a materialistic ontology. Ecstasy could be agony and vice versa, and the result would be the same.
I don't think anyone has satisfactory explanations for consciousness, qualia, etc. That's the 'hard problem'. I currently see it as, in Nagel's terms, that there is just 'something it is like' to be a creature doing this kind of information processing. It seems to me that there is a fundamental discontinuity between the subjective viewpoint and objective descriptions of it that can't be reconciled; qualia are irreducible abstractions - asking if my sensation/perception of red is the same as yours is meaningless; we can only compare indirectly, through common referents, metaphors, and similes.

If everything that is good felt bad and vice-versa, the organism would be at a serious selective disadvantage, and would not, in general, contribute significantly to the gene pool. Such organisms would not evolve.

This is the problem with abstractions. They are unnecessary. They are superfluous. The amoeba need not feel hungry at all if its behavior is reducible to chemistry. Chalmers' question of metaphysical zombies comes into play: could all of this be going on without phenomenal experience? If so, we are into dualism, and if not, then phenomenal experience is an ontologically fundamental aspect of reality... but then we're straight into panpsychism, if not ditching naturalism entirely. If you want to call it an abstraction, then fine, but you still need to account for it. Why does physical reality include phenomenal abstractions?
They are part of our descriptions of reality, how we make sense of the world. Fundamentally, it's all particles or quantum fields oscillating, but their activities produce patterns at various scales of abstraction. As creatures that have evolved at a macro scale, we don't have the perceptual resolution to detect that scale of activity; we deal with the patterns of activity several levels of emergence higher - only the patterns at that level are relevant to the behaviours that ensure our persistence as species (persistent patterns of bulk agglomerations of particles ;)).

My concerns are not at the level of human abstractions. They never have been. They are absolutely at the amoeba level. I do not buy just so evolutionary stories whereby phenomenal experience can be reduced to chemical reactions, because they actually don't account for anything.
OK ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

My problem with focusing so strongly on the formal and structural side of it is that structure is not causal. Mathematics as inert abstract objects cannot ground reality. The idea that 1+1=2 doesn't make two cats pop into existence.
Tegmark seems to suggest that spacetime is a 'static' 4D Parminidean block, i.e. all past and future states are part of the structure, and that the subjective flow of time is an artefact of the temporal extension of our worldlines - so, at any point on your worldline, there is a memory of past events and anticipation of future events; and every segment of your worldline represents you living a temporal life at that point - which implies that your apparently progressing 'now' is one of a vast (temporally quantised?) extent of equally real 'nows' along your worldline...

My problem with the 4D 'block' universe is why, if it all just is in a lump, should it show a spatial progression in the temporal dimension; i.e. why is each temporal 'slice' related to the previous and subsequent slices such that entropy appears to increase from slice to slice?
 
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