Necessity of an Interval between the Rapture and the 2nd Coming

Hal A Peno said:

What a fabricated mess. I'm thouroughly impressed. I can see how the pre-trib big guns have misled you well. Why would the last trump be one from a Jewish feast of trumpets, a religion that denies Christ in the first place.

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You are correct.

The following reveals the original source of the doctrine that John Nelson Darby brought to America, about the time of the Civil War.

It was later incorporated into the notes of the Scofield Reference Bible, which helped the doctrine spread like a virus through the evangelical Church in America.

Saying that Jesus is not in heaven but on earth kind of blows away the trinity doctrine.

Quasar92 said:

The 24 elders of Revelation 4:1-5:14 are best understood as representative of the church. Dr. Charles Ryrie explains:

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That's a new one! The 24 elders are the 12 prophets, and the 12 Apostles.

Amazing Horse said:

It's on the last day of 6000 year of man on earth , then tribulation is rule of Satan on earth who proclaim himself as God , then 1000 year of Christ on earth .

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And based on your obvious study, can you tell us that last day of the 6000 years of man? This is the Jewish Year 5777 You do the math.

Revealing Times said:

YOUR POINT that Jesus is NOT IN HEAVEN BUT ON EARTH, is blown to smithereens by the fact that the verse also says he is NOT ON EARTH and NOT UNDER THE EARTH.

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I think maybe you're responding to the wrong person, because I didn't say that. Jesus is indeed in heaven right now.

Hal A Peno said:

What a fabricated mess. I'm thouroughly impressed. I can see how the pre-trib big guns have misled you well. Why would the last trump be one from a Jewish feast of trumpets, a religion that denies Christ in the first place.

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Really? A New Testament that was written exclusively by Jews (with the possible exception of Luke) talking about a Jewish Messiah who is of the tribe of Judah? A religion that totally denies that? No, you have it all wrong.

All of what I stated was developed back in the OT times long before Yeshua arrived. All of what I stated is based on that. Sure, Rabbinic Judaism took a split, but the real Jewish faith remained consistent with the Messiah Yeshua. Belief in Yeshua is the true faith of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. And the tradition of Rosh Hashanah / Feast of trumpets that "the last trump" is associated with goes way back. Shavuot/Penatcost is associated with the first trump. Rosh Hashanah/Feast of trumpets is associated with the last trump. And Yom Kippur/Day of Atonement is associated with the great trump. That was developed long before Yeshua, and Paul was intimately familiar with this pattern since he was a high level Pharisee that had been trained in one of the most venerated Jewish schools of theology, the school of Gamliel.

And since the trumpets of Revelation hadn't even been revealed yet, and were not even known by Yeshua yet, there is no way that Paul could have known about them and referred to them. Yes, that is right, I said that Yeshua didn't even know about them when Paul wrote about the last trump. How do I know that? Right from Revelation 1:1.

Revelation 1:1 (NKJV) The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants—things which must shortly take place. And He sent and signified it by His angel to His servant John,

The Revelation was given to Yeshua by the Father and Yeshua gave it to John to give to us. Paul wasn't even in the loop, since Paul had been executed 3-4 decades earlier. So that means the only "last trump" that Paul could be referring to was Rosh Hashanah/Feast of Trumpets. Simple, eh?

What you exhibit is what much to the church has done, divest itself of it's Hebrew roots. Remember, the root feeds us, Romans 11:18. But similar mindsets as yours want to "go your own way" in contradiction to what scripture tells us.

And one thing also stands out.... "The greatest barrier to truth is the presumption that one already has it." The fact that you are not even willing to investigate the matter before commenting on it shows you are in agreement with violating the scripture guidance as expressed in Proverbs 18:13 and Acts 17:11. It would seem you have deeper problems than the topic at hand. You deny plain scripture guidance on proper conduct. By default, that implies that you deny scripture. And if you deny the scripture, you deny the one who gave it. Dangerous ground, buddy.

It is one thing to disagree with a interpretation taken by someone else on such matters after having thoroughly researched it. It is quite another to engage your mouth before you have your brain in gear. Ready, shoot, aim.

BABerean2 said:

You are correct.

The following reveals the original source of the doctrine that John Nelson Darby brought to America, about the time of the Civil War.

It was later incorporated into the notes of the Scofield Reference Bible, which helped the doctrine spread like a virus through the evangelical Church in America.

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Let's see... virtually every english translation before the KJV translated Apostasia in 2 Thessalonians 2:3 as "the departure". Only after the KJV came along was the transliterated word Apostasy or Falling Away used to translate the word. Even the Latin Vulgate, written in the 4th Century uses "Discessio", meaning departure. And the Latin Vulgate also has Rapture in it for the Greek Harpazo, which literally means a forceful snatching up. So based on translators that were closer to the original writings, the departure must happen before the man of sin can be revealed.

And Darby was the grand poobah of pre-trib theology? Hardly. The profound scientist and mathematician, and devout Christian, Sir Isaac Newton was in the same camp. He wrote as much commentary on scripture as science. And he held this pre-trib idea 100 years before Darby came on the scene. Also, Ephraim the Syrian (3nd or 4th century) which we have sermons from today expressly taught a pre-trib removal of the righteous. And there are many other early church writers that held that position. No, Darby just capitalized on the idea that was also developing with a "back to the bible" move that was going on.

You watch too many shows.

Monk Brendan said:

That's a new one! The 24 elders are the 12 prophets, and the 12 Apostles.

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That is the way I have viewed it over the years. The representation of Israel and the church, the first covenant and the second covenant.

Whether it is this, or that they represent the 24 courses of the priesthood. It is speculation on either side's part. There is nothing in scripture that confirms definitively who the 24 elders actually are.

One thing of certain though, they have crowns. That means the Bema Seat judgment has already occurred where rewards are given to the righteous. Since that doesn't occur until the righteous are gathered, it implies that the righteous dead have been resurrected and the righteous living have already been gathered. This is actually a picture of the pre-trib gathering of the righteous.

Thanks for bringing it up and causing me to look at it again!

Monk Brendan said:

And based on your obvious study, can you tell us that last day of the 6000 years of man? This is the Jewish Year 5777 You do the math.

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Well, even in Jewish circles there has been a lot of dispute over the Jewish calendar as to whether this actually is the year 5777. There has been some argument that the times of the kings were miscalculated and actually the calendar should be closer to the year 6000. One thing that seems to stare out about this year.... 5 is typically been the number associated with grace. 777 has typically been associated with completion or fulfillment. One could say, using the year 5777, that the age of grace has come to completion.

Not saying I hold to that idea, but it is fun to play around with numbers and show such things. It isn't a doctrine or anything. Just a observation.

Copperhead said:

Let's see... virtually every english translation before the KJV translated Apostasia in 2 Thessalonians 2:3 as "the departure". Only after the KJV came along was the transliterated word Apostasy or Falling Away used to translate the word. Even the Latin Vulgate, written in the 4th Century uses "Discessio", meaning departure. And the Latin Vulgate also has Rapture in it for the Greek Harpazo, which literally means a forceful snatching up. So based on translators that were closer to the original writings, the departure must happen before the man of sin can be revealed.

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Debunked.

jgr said:

Debunked.

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Nope. Just refuted with a several assertions. We disagree. But here are a couple....

3 Let no man deceive you by any means, for that day shall not come, except there come a departing first, and that the man of sin be disclosed, even the son of perdition,

that is from the Geneva Bible found on this link.....

http://www.genevabible.org/files/Geneva_Bible/New_Testament/2_Thessalonians.pdf

And.....

(Let) No man deceive you in any manner. For but dissension, (or departing away), come first, and the man of sin be showed, the son of perdition,

2 Thessalonians 2 Wycliffe's Bible

Copperhead said:

Nope. Just refuted with a several assertions. We disagree. But here are a couple....

3 Let no man deceive you by any means, for that day shall not come, except there come a departing first, and that the man of sin be disclosed, even the son of perdition,

that is from the Geneva Bible found on this link.....

http://www.genevabible.org/files/Geneva_Bible/New_Testament/2_Thessalonians.pdf

And.....

(Let) No man deceive you in any manner. For but dissension, (or departing away), come first, and the man of sin be showed, the son of perdition,

2 Thessalonians 2 Wycliffe's Bible

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The departing referred to was that of a departing from the faith and truth. Wycliffe and Calvin were both Protestant Reformers who declared that the papacy which they were exposing and opposing was antichrist, under which the true Church had already been suffering for centuries. They knew nothing of a rapture, and if they had, they were more than acutely aware that no rapture had occurred.

Their departure was a falling away, not a flying away.

LastSeven said:

I think maybe you're responding to the wrong person, because I didn't say that. Jesus is indeed in heaven right now.

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Right person, wrong subject....Sorry about that.

jgr said:

The departing referred to was that of a departing from the faith and truth. Wycliffe and Calvin were both Protestant Reformers who declared that the papacy which they were exposing and opposing was antichrist, under which the true Church had already been suffering for centuries. They knew nothing of a rapture, and if they had, they were more than acutely aware that no rapture had occurred.

Their departure was a falling away, not a flying away.

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And you can point to this "FAITH" that's being departed from in the 2 Thess. 2 passages I assume. BE MY GUEST, try to point to where its speaks about Faith anywhere in that passage I dare you to find it.

Now I will HIGHLIGHT the places where the Departure is speaking of the Church being Raptured/Gathered unto the Lord. And when the Anti-Christ is allowed to come forth. I see no place in the passage where FAITH is spoken of.

2 Thessalonians 2King James Version (KJV)
2 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come (Wrath of God), except there come a falling (DEPARTURE OF THE CHURCH) away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? 6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth (KATECHO Binds/holds down fast) will let (HOLD DOWN), until he be taken out of the way (Holy Spirit ALLOWS him to Come forth when Jesus breaks the First Seal). 8 And then shall that Wicked(Anti-Christ) be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

Revealing Times said:

And you can point to this "FAITH" that's being departed from in the 2 Thess. 2 passages I assume. BE MY GUEST, try to point to where its speaks about Faith anywhere in that passage I dare you to find it.

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Go back and find a commentary written prior to 50 years ago which claimed the word "apostasy" in this passage is speaking of the pretrib removal of the Church.

"BE MY GUEST"

"I dare you to find it."

You will not find it, because it has recently been invented by Dispensationalists in an attempt to prop up their Two Peoples of God doctrine.

Amazing Horse said:

Mark 13:35
This is more clear said so you can't hind behind courtain of passing away earth

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Not my intention to try and show the exact moment Christ will return. I am just showing you’re so called proof text and method of exegesis of pre-trib rapture is not that at all. This idea that the day and hour passage you quoted proves a pre-trib rapture is nonsense.

Jesus said He would gather the elect immediately after the tribulation, Paul said we would not be gathered until after the falling away “apostasy” and the man of sin is revealed. Deal with that and stop using “if “ this says this and “if “ this says that then it proves a pre-trib rapture. “If” you are right about all of your “ifs” you might could make a case here, but you are not.

Revealing Times said:

I have had to prove this wrong 1000's of time, it always amazes me at the length people will go trying to prove the old traditions of OTHER MEN they carry water for just to back up preconceived notions. The very scriptures you cite prove this notion is faulty.

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Na, 1000’s of times???? Really?? Looks to me like you are trying to defend a few “traditions” here yourself.

Revealing Times said:

Rev. 5:2 And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof? 3 And no man in heaven, NOR IN EARTH, neither UNDER THE EARTH ( So where is Jesus? NOWHERE !! ), was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.

4 And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon. 5 And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.

Jesus was in Heaven as the Lamb in Johns vision, sitting in the THRONE ROOM. By your (other peoples traditions for YEARS) interpretation, since Jesus is not in Heaven, then he can't be ON EARTH or UNDER THE EARTH either, so Jesus is Nowhere by your own interpretation. You want to say he ASCENDED, but the very same verse says hes not on EARTH, so you are being inconsistent, to make a point, but the overall point is really this.

Of course this scripture has nothing to do with Jesus still being on Earth, its something someone contrived in their mind years ago, even though the facts prove it illogical. The logic is that Jesus ascended to the Father as the LAMB, thus the Elder pointed to the Lamb as Worthy, and he was in Heaven all the time, John just didn't see him. To suggest he wasn't in the throne room, would be to suggest he was NOWHERE.

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If Jesus was seated at the right hand of the Father you must be right, John didn’t see Him. The angel didn’t see Him either because the angel was asking who is worthy to open the book. I guess Jesus was hidden to both John and the angel since He was there all the time. Your argument “So where is Jesus? NOWHERE !!” proves nothing. You have ignored the main point of the post to try and divert this issue.

The point of the post was who are the elders . You need to answer a few basic questions on that topic since you challenged my post.

1. Since your goal is to try to prove the church is in heaven when it is not, how can the four beasts as well as the 24 elders be redeemed by His blood as the KJV clearly states and the ASV as well as others clearly refute.

2. It is my contention both elders and 4 beasts are redeemed by His blood out of every kindred and tongue and are made kings and priests or both are not. Choose which one you want to defend because it is one or the other.

Both groups have harps, golden vials, and both sing the new song.

3. If you ignore the contradictions the KJV seems to support your view, the ASV has no contradictions and does not support your view.

Let’s have an honest discussion of these facts.

Truth is you have no proof the 24 elders are the church, or part of the church old testament saints, apostles or anything else you can come up with.

Quasar92 said:

Show me the Scriptures supporting your theory. The Scritures verify who the 24 eldeers are around the throne of God in Rev.4.

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Where are the scriptures that prove yours? Is the number 24 the heart of you case?

Quasar92 said:

Who are the twenty four Elders around the throne of God in Rev.4:4 ?

The twenty four Elders around the throne of God, represent the twenty four courses of the Levitical priesthood, with one priest for each course seated on each of the twenty four thrones.

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Nothing in the text even hints at this.

Quasar92 said:

As recorded in 1 Chr.24:7-18. In Jer.33:17-18: "For this is what the Lord says: 'David will never fail to have a man to sit on the throne of Israel, NOR WILL THE PRIESTS, who are Levites ever fail to have before me continually to offer burnt offerings, to burn grain offerings and to present sacrifices.'" See also 2 Sam.7 for God's promise to David.

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Are burnt offering and sacrifices still offered in heaven???

Quasar92 said:

There are many who attempt to identify them as the twelve apostles and twelve of the old testament saints, but there is nothing in the Bible to support this theory or any of the others, except the one above.

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The elders are almost always mentioned in the presence of the four beasts in Revelation 5:11 they are seen with angels and the four beasts.

BABerean2 said:

Go back and find a commentary written prior to 50 years ago which claimed the word "apostasy" in this passage is speaking of the pretrib removal of the Church.

"BE MY GUEST"

"I dare you to find it."

You will not find it, because it has recently been invented by Dispensationalists in an attempt to prop up their Two Peoples of God doctrine.

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then, pray tell, how is it that the Latin Vulgate used discessio (departure) also? Considering that it was written in the 4th century, it is going to be tough to lay that one on recent dispensationalists without resorting to some conspiracy theory nonsense.