Necessity of an Interval between the Rapture and the 2nd Coming

[Postvieww]

Many people totally miss what this passage means, eve when they kind of get it.

1 Thessalonians 5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.

2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

Sounds like we are still here to me. We just are not in darkness and will not be caught unaware.

5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.

6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.

We are told to watch, in your theory you think you will be watching from heaven I think we will be watching from here on earth. We would not need to be told this if we are in heaven.

7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.

8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.

I believe it is on earth we will need to watch, be sober and put on the breastplate of faith and love; we will need no such admonition if we are in heaven.

9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

Amen, we will not endure His wrath.

The day of the Lord is wrath and rejoicing depending on where one stands with Christ.

 

[Postvieww]

Revelation 12:5 (NKJV) She bore a male Child who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron. And her Child was caught up to God and His throne.

The same male child who is to rule all nations is the same child caught up. You tell me who that is.

 

[Copperhead]

The same male child who is to rule all nations is the same child caught up. You tell me who that is.

Ok.....

Revelation 2:26-27 (NKJV) And he who overcomes, and keeps My works until the end, to him I will give power over the nations—
27 “He shall rule them with a rod of iron;
They shall be dashed to pieces like the potter's vessels’—as I also have received from My Father;

Now, you tell us who those are that overcome?

Romans 12:5 (NKJV) so we, being many, are one body in Christ, and individually members of one another.

1 Corinthians 12:27 (NKJV) Now you are the body of Christ, and members individually.

Ephesians 4:12 (NKJV) for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ,

Ephesians 5:23 (NKJV) For the husband is head of the wife, as also Christ is head of the church; and He is the Savior of the body.

 

[BABerean2]

But does the church save anyone? Once a person is saved, they become part of the church, now, but there is no need for "the church" for a person to be saved. The "church" didn't exist prior to the Pentacost after Messiah's resurrection, yet I am pretty confident that many folks prior to that were saved. David, Moses, et al. There is indeed a need for the Messiah for one to be saved, as there is no other way of salvation than thru Him. Moses, David, the Prophets, etc all spoke of the coming Messiah and recognized that. I haven't seen the verse that says there is no other way of salvation than thru the church. The church is simply the ecclesia or "called out" ones.

Since the New Covenant Church is made up of those who have placed their faith in Christ, anyone who places their faith in Christ now, or in the future, is a member of the New Covenant Church.


All time in the Bible is measured before the Cross and after the Cross.

Based on Hebrews 8:13, the New Covenant has made the Old Covenant "obsolete".
Based on Hebrews 13:20, the New Covenant is "everlasting".
Therefore, nobody will come to salvation during a future time outside of the Church.

Anyone who places their faith in Christ, after the Day of Pentecost, is a member of the Church.

There is no Plan B found in the New Testament.

This is confirmed by those under the Blood of the Lamb in Revelation 12:11.
By definition they would be members of the New Covenant Church.


.

 

[Copperhead]

Since the New Covenant Church is made up of those who have placed their faith in Christ, anyone who places their faith in Christ now, or in the future, is a member of the New Covenant Church.


All time in the Bible is measured before the Cross and after the Cross.

Based on Hebrews 8:13, the New Covenant has made the Old Covenant "obsolete".
Based on Hebrews 13:20, the New Covenant is "everlasting".
Therefore, nobody will come to salvation during a future time outside of the Church.

Anyone who places their faith in Christ, after the Day of Pentecost, is a member of the Church.

There is no Plan B found in the New Testament.

This is confirmed by those under the Blood of the Lamb in Revelation 12:11.
By definition they would be members of the New Covenant Church.


.

Then we have a conundrum.

It is apparent that the Bema seat judgement for rewards has already occurred in Revelation 4.... the elders have crowns. Rewards have been handed out.

And while thru the Messiah is indeed the only plan, no plan B. The groups can be different. The names of the lineage from Adam to Noah lays out the entire gospel, so those folks had to know the only path to take. Likewise, the Mazzoroth in the stars lays out the entire plan of God. While those before the church are not in the body as those who come to faith now, what of those that come to faith during the millennial reign of Messiah? Again, the bema seat judgement for the righteous has already occurred and the church, as the body of Christ, has joined with Messiah as His bride and is ruling over the nations. What of those of the MR nations that come to faith during that reign? We know there will be children that will be born and grow up during that time, as well as some who die. But there no longer is the church on earth during the millennial reign as we know it now.

I contend that those who come to faith after the church has been joined with the Messiah as one, they are in the same camp as those that came to faith before the church was conceived at Pentacost.

Regarding Rev 12:11, verse 10 adds some complexity. It states the Satan has been accusing the brethren before God. And verse 11 completes that thought. But in verse 12, Satan has been cast down to the earth. So any killed after that event by default are not the ones mentioned in verse 11.

 

[Revealing Times]

Then it should be an easy thing for you to post scriptures that support the day of the Lord is not a day but 7 years or 3.5 or whatever.

It is very easy. All you have to do brother is take the Scriptures spoken of about the "Day of the Lord" and superimpose them to the book of Revelation. Where do they fit? When does the Lord Return? We put all the information into the "computer" then we can diagnose the length of the "Day of the Lord". Lets analyze this via the Scriptures instead of just having suppositions.(Which I have already done.) I will match the scriptures up and then we can create a TIMELINE.

Joel 2:1 Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of the Lord cometh, for it is nigh at hand; 2 A day of darkness and of gloominess, a day of clouds and of thick darkness.......3 A fire devoureth before them; and behind them a flame burneth: the land is as the garden of Eden before them, and behind them a desolate wilderness; yea, and nothing shall escape them. 4 The appearance of them is as the appearance of horses; and as horsemen, so shall they run.

10 The earth shall quake before them; the heavens shall tremble: the sun and the moon shall be dark, and the stars shall withdraw their shining: 11 And the Lord shall utter his voice before his army: for his camp is very great: for he is strong that executeth his word: for the day of the Lord is great and very terrible; and who can abide it?

So in verses 1 we have the Day of the Lord, in verse 3 we see that God is going to use Fire on all but the Holy Land. in verse 4 I think this references the 200 Million Horsemen, which is an Angelic Army of God bringing plagues on mankind.

Now to the MAJOR INDICATOR HERE: Verse 10 tells us that IN THE DAY OF THE LORD, the Heavens shall quake/tremble, the Sun & Moon shall become DARK as well as the Stars. So where is this at in the book of Revelation? Lets match up the two events with Scriptures.

Rev. 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; 13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

17 For the great DAY of HIS WRATH IS COME; and who shall be able to stand?

Rev. 8:7 The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up.

Rev. 8:12 And the fourth angel sounded, and the third part of the SUN was smitten, and the third part of the MOON, and the third part of the STARS; so as the third part of them was DARKENED, and the day shone not for a third part of it, and the night likewise.

Then we have the Second Woe or the 200 Million Horsemen of Rev. 9, which there is no need to post we all know about it. I personally think that;s the Horsemen that's spoken of in Joel 2:4, then we have the Fire references that match Rev. chapter 7 and the Sun/Moon/Stars being darkened that match the Sixth Seal and the Fourth Trumpet.

So w see the Day of the Lord as spoken of in Joel CAN NOT BE ONE DAY as you seem to insist because its covering MANY EVENTS and all before Jesus Returns to defeat the BEAST/Anti-Christ at Armageddon in Vial numbers 6 and 7.

So the DAY OF THE LORD is proven right here to be a LONG EVENT, not just a Day. The DAY Inference refers to a STARTING POINT of the Wrath of God. Jesus is God, the Sixth Seal is described as the Lambs Wrath. Jesus doesn't return until the Seventh Seal. This is not that hard to understand, when we study it in dept instead of just taking a day to be a day instead of A DAY when the Wrath BEGINS !!

MORE TO COME BELOW: Follow along some more.

Joel 2:20 But I will remove far off from you the northern army (King of the North defeated at Armageddon), and will drive him into a land barren and desolate, with his face toward the east sea, and his hinder part toward the utmost sea, and his stink shall come up, and his ill savour shall come up, because he hath done great things.

30 And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke. 31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the Lord come.

30 And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke. 31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the Lord come.

Joel 3:13 Put ye in the sickle, for the harvest is ripe: come, get you down; for the press is full, the fats overflow; for their wickedness is great. 14 Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the day of the Lord is near in the valley of decision.15 The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining. (Matches Rev. 14.)

Zephaniah 1:14 The great day of the Lord is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even the voice of the day of the Lord: the mighty man shall cry there bitterly. 15 That day is a day of wrath (Seal 6 IS WRATH), a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness, 16 A day of the trumpet and alarm against the fenced cities, and against the high towers. 17 And I will bring distress upon men, that they shall walk like blind men, because they have sinned against the Lord: and their blood shall be poured out as dust, and their flesh as the dung. 18 Neither their silver nor their gold shall be able to deliver them in the day of the Lord's wrath; but the whole land shall be devoured by the fire of his jealousy: for he shall make even a speedy riddance of all them that dwell in the land.

The DAY OF THE LORD as described is MANY THINGS, not ONE DAY !! Its the World be ravaged by FIRE, by DEATHS, its the Sun/Moon/Stars being DARKENED, and that happens three times, once in the Seals once in the Trumpets and once in the Vials. It describes the Wine-press of the Wicked being Harvested (KILLED). It describes the Trumpets of Gods Wrath bring blown/Alarm-warning given to mankind. It describes the Northern Army being destroyed.It describes WONDERS in the Heavens and Earth and Pillars of Smoke/Fire. Its not a ONE DAY EVENT, just like the 10 Kings do not serve ONE HOUR with the BEAST its METAPHORIC IN NATURE !!!

Rev. 17:12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.

Rev. 18:8 Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her. 9 And the kings of the earth, who have committed fornication and lived deliciously with her, shall bewail her, and lament for her, when they shall see the smoke of her burning,

The Kings do not RULE ONE HOUR they rule with the BEAST 3.5 Years and probably longer, but hes only the BEAST for 3.5 years. They probably rule 7-10 years with the Anti-Christ/Little Horn. Its NOT ONE HOUR !! We have to understand the Metaphoric nature of Prophecy.

Also, Babylon IS NOT DESTROYED IN ONE DAY !! It is the Whole World (Babylon) being hit with ALL of Gods Plagues. The Seals (Wrath of the Lamb) Trumpets (Wrath of the Holy Spirit) Vials (Wrath of the Father/God) and ALL are the Wrath of God because Jesus/Holy Spirit and the Father are ALL GOD of Course.

So the Wrath of God = the Day of the Lord which = a 3.5 YEAR PERIOD of Gods Wrath. When you tie it all together, it very obvious.

MORE TO COME: Follow along.

Zephaniah 2:2 Gather yourselves together, yea, gather together, O nation not desired; 2 Before the decree bring forth, before the day pass as the chaff, before the fierce anger of the Lord come upon you, before the day of the Lord's anger come upon you. 3 Seek ye the Lord, all ye meek of the earth, which have wrought his judgment; seek righteousness, seek meekness: it may be ye shall be hid in the day of the Lord's anger (Speaks of the RAPTURE right here, and Israel being protected in the Wilderness for 1260 Days !!.)

The next 12 verses speaks about how all the Surrounding Nations that come against Israel will be DESTROYED !! Be they Gaza, Ashkelon, Ashdod, Ekron, Moab, Ammon, Philistines, Ethiopians, Assyria;(Whoever dwells there Probably Turkey and Syria).

God sends Elijah to turn Israel back to God BEFORE the Great and Terrible day of the Lord !! They Return BEFORE the Abomination of Desolation on purpose, because that is what Kicks of Gods Wrath/Day of the Lord (SEE Seal Six, this the the Lambs Wrath thus we understand the Day of the Lords Wrath has to be a MULTI-YEAR EVENT. A 3.5 Year Event that starts with the very First Seal.)

Malachi 4:5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord: 6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.

Zechariah 12:10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications (NOT NOW of Course FUTURE EVENT): and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn (Israel Repents/ACCEPTS Jesus as their Messiah/Elijah turns their Hearts back unto God) for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

Zechariah 13:1 In that day(When Israel Repents) there shall be a fountain opened to the house of David and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem for sin and for uncleanness. (The BLOOD of Jesus of Course is that Fountain) 2 And it shall come to pass in that day, saith the Lord of hosts, that I will cut off the names of the idols out of the land, and they shall no more be remembered: and also I will cause the [false]prophets and the unclean spirit to pass out of the land.

BELOW IS ONE OF THE BIGGEST KEYS AS TO WHEN THE Day of the Lord is.

Zechariah 14:1 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee. 2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city. (So the Day of the Lord sees Jerusalem CONQUERED, and the Beast rules Jerusalem or TRODS HER UNDER FOOT for 42 Months which is 3.5 Years of Course.)

3 Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle. (After the Day of the Lord Begins)

4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives (Great Earthquake Described below), which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains (God protects Israel); for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the Lord my God shall come, and all the saints with thee. 6 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:

So Israel/Jerusalem is Conquered on the Day of the Lord and Israel is protected on the Day of the Lord and Israel is Redeemed and brought forth to eventually Dwell with God on the Day of the Lord. Lastly lets look at 2 Peter 3:10

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. (We see here the FIRE JUDGMENT where all the Grasses and Trees are burned to a crisp along with the Elements.)

So the TIMELINE of the Day of the Lord runs from the very First Seal being Broken until the Seventh Vial is poured out. These are all Plagues brought forth by Gods Wrath against a Wicked World which God sees as Babylon. The very First Seal i the Ant-Christ coming forth to Conquer. We know that he Conquers/Rules/Trods under foot Jerusalem for 3.5 Years thus the TIMELINE for Gods Wrath is 3.5 Years.

 

[Revealing Times]

1 Corinthians 1:8 Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Does this sound more like when Jesus gathers us or a 3.5 year period of time.

Philippians 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

Does this really sound like a 3.5 year period?

Philippians 1:10 That ye may approve things that are excellent; that ye may be sincere and without offence till the day of Christ.

Does this sound like a reference to a 3.5 year period?

Philippians 2:16 Holding forth the word of life; that I may rejoice in the day of Christ, that I have not run in vain, neither laboured in vain.

Do you think there will be rejoicing when Christ gathers us?

This is because you are not looking at the FULL PICTURE...Of course the Day of Christ/Day of the Lord ends with the Saints being given the Kingdom and the Saints being Rewarded.

Joel 2:31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the Lord come.

32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the Lord hath said, and in the remnant whom the Lord shall call.

In Joel 1 it speaks about the Cankerworm Locust and Caterpillar Devouring the fields of corn etc. etc. but in Joel 2 it says God will replenish this....Joel 2:25 And I will restore to you the years that the locust hath eaten, the cankerworm, and the caterpiller, and the palmerworm, my great army which I sent among you. 26 And ye shall eat in plenty, and be satisfied, and praise the name of the Lord your God, that hath dealt wondrously with you: and my people shall never be ashamed.

So of course the Day of Christ will EVENTUALLY BRING BLESSINGS to those that are IN CHRIST. You see ONE PART of the Day of the Lord and refuse to see he full 3.5 Year Event. That's like me talking about a Marathon and only describing the first 5 Miles of he event, SURE there will eventually be a winner, and people who finish with dignity. But many have to stop, many fail, some are injured etc. etc. If I only describe the first 5 Miles you will only get the people who had to stop. If I only describe the last mile you will only get those that finished. I have to describe the ENTIRE EVENT. N one is saying that the Day of Christ doesn't bring blessings, Israel will DWELL WITH GOD, after He defeats the Anti-Christ/BEAST and their Armies, the Judgment seat is set up to REWARD those BEHEADED in Rev. 20:4.

SEE BELOW:

Joel 3:For, behold, in those days, and in that time, when I shall bring again the captivity of Judah and Jerusalem, 2 I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, and will plead with them there for my people and for my heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and parted my land.

15 The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining.

17 So shall ye know that I am the Lord your God dwelling in Zion, my holy mountain: then shall Jerusalem be holy, and there shall no strangers pass through her any more. 18 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the mountains shall drop down new wine, and the hills shall flow with milk, and all the rivers of Judah shall flow with waters, and a fountain shall come forth out of the house of the Lord, and shall water the valley of [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]tim.

So AS WE SEE, a Part of that DAY is also Blessings brother. You have to look at the FULL Day of the Lord or 3.5 Year Period of time. And during the Day of the Lord the Raptured will be in Heaven WITH CHRIST Marrying the Lamb then we the Blessed Come back with Jesus Christ. All of these things must be factored in. The Church will be Marrying the Lamb during the Day of the Lord !!

Do you think there will be rejoicing when Christ gathers us?

2 Thessalonians 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

The context here is our gathering not a 3.5 year period.

Yes, the Day of the Lord involves wrath on the wicked, but the same day is rejoicing for the righteous.

2 Thess. 2 happens before the Tribulation/Jacobs Troubles begin and before the Day of the Lord Begins S we are in Heaven Marrying the Lamb just after the Rapture, just like Rev. 19 says.

This is supported in the passage below.

2 Thessalonians 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

I am afraid you have misconstrued the meaning of this passage brother. Let me expand it a wee bit to demonstrate. This is about Paul comforting the Thessalonians that the Day of Judgment would come upon the Wicked eventually and they would eventually be blessed.

2 Thess. 1:5 Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer: 6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you; 7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels (RAPTURE We rest with Christ and the Vengeance of God will soon come upon the World ),

8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

This verse above, verse 10 is not speaking about Christ coming but about Jesus coming to be GLORIFIED in His Saints (Praised/Rejoiced/Admired/Glorified) who believed in him.

So this is basically Paul telling the that the Wicked will receive their Just Due eventually as well as those who Believe in Christ Jesus.

 

[BABerean2]

8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

He returns in "flaming fire" in the verse above.

This connects the event to 2 Peter 3:10-13, on "the day of the Lord" when He "comes as a thief", which is also the timing of the event at the end of 1 Thessalonians chapter 4, which is revealed in 1 Thessalonians 5:1-2.
The words "we" and "sleep" in 1 Thessalonians 5:10 shows that chapter 4 and chapter 5 are speaking of the same event.

When does the fire come in Revelation chapter 20?

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[Revealing Times]

1 Thessalonians 5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.

2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

Sounds like we are still here to me. We just are not in darkness and will not be caught unaware.

That is of course true, the Rapture has not happened so the Day of the Lord can not yet be upon us.

5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.

6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.

We are told to watch, in your theory you think you will be watching from heaven I think we will be watching from here on earth. We would not need to be told this if we are in heaven.

I don't think you grasp what WATCH means brother? It does us NO GOOD to watch for the Lords Coming for us, when we know not the Day nor the Hour he is coming in, UNLESS....To watch means we are to STAY IN THE DAY (Light of Christ Jesus), we thus can not be trifled with by the THIEF who comes ONLY IN THE NIGHT !! We are to Stay in Christ Jesus always. We are to WATCH OUR ACTIONS or to keep our Flesh in check.

Paul says we can not be overtaken by THAT DAY because we are Children of the Light, so let us WATCH AND BE SOBER....To stay away from sin. Let us NOT SLEEP means let us not fall under Satan's spell like the World has, we are AWARE of his Willy ways, meanwhile the world thinks we are crazy, there is NO GOD !! They are ASLEEP BROTHER., we are not, WE WOKE !!!

Lets look at this in the Holman version (HCSB)

The Day of the Lord

1 Thess. 5:1 About the times and the seasons: Brothers, you do not need anything to be written to you. 2 For you yourselves know very well that the Day of the Lord will come just like a thief in the night. 3 When they say, “Peace and security,” then sudden destruction comes on them, like labor pains come on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape. 4 But you, brothers, are not in the dark, for this day to overtake you like a thief. 5 For you are all sons of light and sons of the day. We do not belong to the night or the darkness.

6 So then, we must not sleep, like the rest, but we must stay awake and be serious. 7 For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk are drunk at night. 8 But since we belong to the day, we must be serious and put the armor of faith and love on our chests, and put on a helmet of the hope of salvation. 9 For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, 10 who died for us, so that whether we are awake or asleep, we will live together with Him. 11 Therefore encourage one another and build each other up as you are already doing.

 

[BABerean2]

Then we have a conundrum.

It is apparent that the Bema seat judgement for rewards has already occurred in Revelation 4.... the elders have crowns. Rewards have been handed out.

The "conundrum" is created by attempting to force the Book of Revelation into a chronological order.
It does not work.

This is proven by the fact that Christ returns "as a thief" at Armageddon in Revelation 16:15-16 and He also returns in chapter 19.

The book is a series of overlapping visions given to the Apostle John.

The "time of the judgment of the dead" in Revelation 11:18 must be ignored by many today, because it does not fit their timeline.

When the question is asked about how did a certain group get to heaven in the Book of Revelation many avoid the simplest and most logical answer.
These people have already died.
All of the Old Testament prophets and the Apostles of Christ are there now with thousands upon thousands of our dead Brothers and Sisters in Christ.

The Second Coming of Christ is found with those hiding from the wrath of the Lamb at the end of Revelation 6.

Also, in the 7th trumpet and judgment of the dead in Revelation 11:15-18.

Also, in the "harvest" of Revelation 14.

And in Revelation 16:15-16.

And in Revelation 19.

And at the end of Revelation 20 when the fire comes, since He comes in "flaming fire", based on 2 Thessalonians chapter 1.

Attempting to force the book into a perfect chronology has produced the tremendous confusion often seen on this forum.

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[Revealing Times]

Debunked.

Here is the elaboration on 2 Thes. 2:3 in the Wycliffe translation:

3 [That] No man deceive you in any manner. For but dissension come first [For no but departing away, or dissension, shall come first], and the man of sin be showed, the son of perdition

Note that dissension (consistent with apostasy, separation, schism) is the elaboration. Rapture is unseen.

Departing/departure means departure from the truth i.e. apostasy, not rapture; falling away, not flying away.

Wycliffe himself identified antichrist as the papacy, at whose hands the true church was suffering. He unquestionably therefore did not believe in a pretrib rapture.


And from Calvin's Geneva Study Bible:

Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Calvin also identified antichrist as the papacy, and thus did not believe in a pretrib rapture.
Same with Tyndale. He was martyred by the papacy.
Same with Cranmer. He too was martyred by the papacy.
Coverdale was an associate of Tyndale's, and of like persuasion.
Beza was also of like persuasion.

There is no Reformer who defined the word as anything other than apostasy.

A definition of "discessio," the word used in the Vulgate, is found at this site.

Included near the end is a specific ecclesiological subdefinition:
"In the church, a separation, schism (eccl. Lat.), Vulg. Act. 21, 21; id. 2 Thes. 2, 3."

Occurrences are cited as being Acts 21:21 and 2 Thes. 2:3.

Letting Scripture interpret Scripture, the use of the word in Acts 21:21 is translated "forsake," which is fully consistent with the subdefinition above, and has nothing to do with rapture.

Apostacia: What Modern Greeks say about "Apostacia" in 2 Thess 2:3.

Excerpt: "I could find no debate among Greek speaking Christians on how to interpret this verse. They all interpret "apostacia" in 2 Thess 2:3 to mean "apostacy"."

Does Apostasia in 2 Thessalonians 2:3 Refer to a ‘Physical Departure’ (i.e. the Rapture)?

2 Thess 2:3 in the Early Church Writings; How early Greek, Latin and Aramaic speaking Christians interpreted "Apostacia"/"Apostacy

The Latin Influence on 2 Thess 2:3


The early church believed that the imperial Roman empire, under which the church was then living, was the restrainer which would eventually be "taken out of the way", but which was forestalling the emergence of the papal Roman empire, which Paul describes as the lawless one; and its ensuing apostasy. Notice in the related verses in 2 Thess. 2 that Paul does not reveal the identity of the restrainer. If Paul had believed that the Holy Spirit was the restrainer, there would have been no reason for him not to explicitly name the Holy Spirit. But Paul did have a reason. John Chrysostom, an apologist of the later early post-apostolic era, reveals it:

"Because if he meant to say the Spirit, he would not have spoken obscurely, but plainly, that even now the grace of the Spirit, that is the gifts, withhold him. And otherwise he ought now to have come, if he was about to come when the gifts ceased; for they have long since ceased. But because he said this of the Roman empire, he naturally glanced at it, and speaks covertly and darkly. For he did not wish to bring upon himself superfluous enmities, and useless dangers. For if he had said that after a little while the Roman empire would be dissolved, they would immediately have even overwhelmed him, as a pestilent person, and all the faithful, as living and warring to this end."

Paul did not wish to jeopardize the Church by attracting the attention of the Roman authorities.

History subsequently confirmed the accuracy of Paul's inspired understanding and predictions.


"Futurism fantasizes; history realizes."

Now you have been blocked just like your buddy...

 

[jgr]

Now you have been blocked just like your buddy...

Let's see.

Debunked.

Here is the elaboration on 2 Thes. 2:3 in the Wycliffe translation:

3 [That] No man deceive you in any manner. For but dissension come first [For no but departing away, or dissension, shall come first], and the man of sin be showed, the son of perdition

Note that dissension (consistent with apostasy, separation, schism) is the elaboration. Rapture is unseen.

Departing/departure means departure from the truth i.e. apostasy, not rapture; falling away, not flying away.

Wycliffe himself identified antichrist as the papacy, at whose hands the true church was suffering. He unquestionably therefore did not believe in a pretrib rapture.


And from Calvin's Geneva Study Bible:

Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Calvin also identified antichrist as the papacy, and thus did not believe in a pretrib rapture.
Same with Tyndale. He was martyred by the papacy.
Same with Cranmer. He too was martyred by the papacy.
Coverdale was an associate of Tyndale's, and of like persuasion.
Beza was also of like persuasion.

There is no Reformer who defined the word as anything other than apostasy.

A definition of "discessio," the word used in the Vulgate, is found at this site.

Included near the end is a specific ecclesiological subdefinition:
"In the church, a separation, schism (eccl. Lat.), Vulg. Act. 21, 21; id. 2 Thes. 2, 3."

Occurrences are cited as being Acts 21:21 and 2 Thes. 2:3.

Letting Scripture interpret Scripture, the use of the word in Acts 21:21 is translated "forsake," which is fully consistent with the subdefinition above, and has nothing to do with rapture.

Apostacia: What Modern Greeks say about "Apostacia" in 2 Thess 2:3.

Excerpt: "I could find no debate among Greek speaking Christians on how to interpret this verse. They all interpret "apostacia" in 2 Thess 2:3 to mean "apostacy"."

Does Apostasia in 2 Thessalonians 2:3 Refer to a ‘Physical Departure’ (i.e. the Rapture)?

2 Thess 2:3 in the Early Church Writings; How early Greek, Latin and Aramaic speaking Christians interpreted "Apostacia"/"Apostacy

The Latin Influence on 2 Thess 2:3


The early church believed that the imperial Roman empire, under which the church was then living, was the restrainer which would eventually be "taken out of the way", but which was forestalling the emergence of the papal Roman empire, which Paul describes as the lawless one; and its ensuing apostasy. Notice in the related verses in 2 Thess. 2 that Paul does not reveal the identity of the restrainer. If Paul had believed that the Holy Spirit was the restrainer, there would have been no reason for him not to explicitly name the Holy Spirit. But Paul did have a reason. John Chrysostom, an apologist of the later early post-apostolic era, reveals it:

"Because if he meant to say the Spirit, he would not have spoken obscurely, but plainly, that even now the grace of the Spirit, that is the gifts, withhold him. And otherwise he ought now to have come, if he was about to come when the gifts ceased; for they have long since ceased. But because he said this of the Roman empire, he naturally glanced at it, and speaks covertly and darkly. For he did not wish to bring upon himself superfluous enmities, and useless dangers. For if he had said that after a little while the Roman empire would be dissolved, they would immediately have even overwhelmed him, as a pestilent person, and all the faithful, as living and warring to this end."

Paul did not wish to jeopardize the Church by attracting the attention of the Roman authorities.

History subsequently confirmed the accuracy of Paul's inspired understanding and predictions.


"Futurism fantasizes; history realizes."