Necessity of an Interval between the Rapture and the 2nd Coming

Quasar92

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Building upon the article "The Rapture & The Second Coming: An Important Distinction" in our previous issue of Pre-Trib Perspectives, we now will see that a gap of time is needed between the rapture and the second coming in order to facilitate certain events spoken of in the Bible. Such a needed time interval provides strong support for pretribulationism.

A PRE-TRIB INTERVAL

Numerous items in the New Testament can easily be harmonized by a pre-trib time gap of at least seven years, while other views, especially postribulationists, are forced to postulate scenarios that would not realistically allow for normal passage of time. The following events are best temporally harmonized with an interval of time as put forth by pretribulationism.1

THE BEMA JUDGMENT

2 Corinthians 5:10 teaches that all believers of this age must appear before the judgment seat of Christ in heaven. This event, often known as the "bema judgment" (see also Rom. 14:10; 1 Cor. 3:10-15; 4:2-5) from the Greek word bema, is an event never mentioned in the detailed accounts connected with the second coming of Christ to the earth. Instead, the second coming brings with it God's judgment of unbelievers, usually expressed by some form of the Greek word krinô. Thus, it can be established from the biblical text that the bema-judgment applies only to church age believers, while the krinô-judgment is for unbelievers.

The Bible indicates that each individual within the Body of Christ will appear before the bema in association with Christ's return for the church (i.e., at the pretrib rapture). Dr. Robert Gromacki notes:

the judgment will occur immediately after the coming of Christ for believers. . . . Earlier, Paul wrote: "Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come . . . (I Cor. 4:5). Thus, this is not an ongoing judgment that each Christian experiences on earth or right after death. It is a once-for-all event that occurs right after the appearing of Christ (I Thess. 4:13-18).2

Since the normal transaction of such an evaluation would require some passage of time, the pre-trib gap of seven years nicely accounts for such a requirement.

CHRIST'S BRIDE IN HEAVEN

In conjunction with the bema judgment, Revelation 19:7-10 pictures the church as a bride who has been made ready for marriage (with "fine linen," which represents "the righteous acts of the saints") to her groom (Christ). The bride has already been clothed in preparation for her return at the second coming with Christ to the earth (Rev. 19:11-18). It follows that the church would already have to be complete and in heaven (because of the pre-trib rapture) in order to have been prepared in the way that Revelation 19 describes. This requires an interval of time which pretribulationism handles well.

Apparently the bride's preparation and the bema judgment are different illustrations of the same event. The bema focuses on the process of judgment, while the bride pictures the results. Dr. Ed Hindson explains:

Whatever view one holds in regard to our Lord's return, one thing is clear in prophetic Scripture, the marriage occurs in heaven (Rev. 19:7-9) before the triumphal return of Christ with His redeemed church at His side (Rev. 19:11-16).

Non-pretribulationists are at a virtual loss to explain how the church got to heaven prior to returning with Christ at the battle of Armageddon. At best, some suggest they are "caught up" after the Tribulation only to return immediately with the Lord. This arrangement, however, leaves little or no time for the wedding!3

THE 24 ELDERS IN HEAVEN

The 24 elders of Revelation 4:1-5:14 are best understood as representative of the church. Dr. Charles Ryrie explains:

In the New Testament, elders as the highest officials in the church do represent the whole church (cf. Acts 15:6; 20:28), and in the Old Testament, twenty-four elders were appointed by King David to represent the entire Levitical priesthood (I Chron. 24). When those twenty-four elders met together in the temple precincts in Jerusalem, the entire priestly house was represented. Thus it seems more likely that the elders represent redeemed human beings, . . . the church is included and is thus in heaven before the tribulation begins.4

If these elders refer to the church, then it would mean at least two things: 1) It would necessitate the rapture and reward of the church before the tribulation and would require a chronological gap for them to perform their heavenly duties during the seven-year tribulation. 2) It would also show that the completed church was already in heaven before events of the tribulation begin.

THE JUDGMENT OF GENTILES

It would be impossible for the judgment of the Gentiles to take place after the second coming if the rapture and second coming are not separated by a gap of time. How would both saved and unsaved, still in their natural bodies, be separated in judgment if all living believers are translated at the second coming? This would be impossible if the translation takes place at the second coming, but it is solved through a pretribulational gap.

Dr. John F. Walvoord points out that if "the translation took place in connection with the second coming to the earth, there would be no need of separating the sheep from the goats at a subsequent judgment, but the separation would have taken place in the very act of the translation of the believers before Christ actually sets up His throne on earth (Matt. 25:31)."5 Once again, such a "problem" is solved by taking a pretrib position with its gap of at least seven years.

POPULATING THE MILLENNIUM

At the second coming, non-martyred Believers who come to faith in Christ during the tribulation are not translated, but carry on ordinary occupations such as farming, building houses, and the bearing of children (Isa. 65:20-25) during the subsequent millennium. This would be impossible if all saints were translated at the second coming to the earth, as posttribulationists teach. Because pretribulationists have at least a seven-year interval between the removal of the church at the rapture and the return of Christ to the earth, this is not a problem because millions of people will be saved during the interval and thus be available to populate the millennium in their natural bodies in order to fulfill Scripture.

Dr. Steven McAvoy concludes:

The fact that the judgment of the nations occurs before the millennium and thus provides for the population of the millennial earth, constitutes a strong argument for pretribulationism. For a posttribulational rapture would leave no sheep for this judgment. If pretribulationalists are correct in placing this judgment before the millennium then posttribulationalism suffers a serious blow.6

ISRAEL'S FUTURE

A time interval is needed so that God's program for the church, a time when Jew and Gentile are united in one body (cf. Eph. 2-3), will not become commingled in any way with His unfinished and future plan for Israel during the tribulation. Dr. Renald Showers notes:

All other views of the Rapture have the church going through at least part of the 70th week, meaning that all other views mix God's 70-weeks program for Israel and Jerusalem together with His program for the church.7

A gap of time is needed after God completes His program with the church, so that He may conclude His plans for Israel. Only with an interval of seven years, as postulated by pretribulationists, can God's program be harmonized in a non-conflicting manner.

CONCLUSION

The pretribulational rapture of the church not only fulfills a biblical need to see a distinction between the translation of church-age saints at the rapture, before the second coming, but it also handles without difficulty the necessity of a time-gap, which harmonizes a number of future biblical events. This requirement of a seven-year gap of time adds support to the likelihood that pretribulationism best reflects the biblical point of view.

By Thomas Ice, PhD


Quasar92
 

BABerean2

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Yea post trib have problem , because how can elders sit on throne without thier bodies , and if they got bodies then rapture would need to happend for them to get thier resurrected bodies back .

If you can show how the pretrib doctrine fits into the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is found fulfilled by Christ in Hebrews 8:6-13, and is specifically applied to the Church in Hebrews 12:22-24, and 2 Corinthians 3:6-8, then maybe you can convince some of us that it is not a manmade doctrine.


The New Covenant: Bob George


.
 
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Amazing Horse

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If you can show how the pretrib doctrine fits into the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is found fulfilled by Christ in Hebrews 8:6-13, and is specifically applied to the Church in Hebrews 12:22-24, and 2 Corinthians 3:6-8, then maybe you can convince some of us that it is not a manmade doctrine.


The New Covenant: Bob George


.

Millenial Kingdom :)
 
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LastSeven

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2 Corinthians 5:10 teaches that all believers of this age must appear before the judgment seat of Christ in heaven.
Doesn't say this is for the righteous only. In fact it talks about both "the good and the bad".
This event, often known as the "bema judgment" (see also Rom. 14:10; 1 Cor. 3:10-15; 4:2-5)
Romans 14:10
10 You, then, why do you judge your brother or sister[a]? Or why do you treat them with contempt? For we will all stand before God’s judgment seat.

Doesn't say this is only for the righteous. In fact it says we will all stand before God.

1 Corinthians 3:10-15

10 By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as a wise builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should build with care. 11 For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13 their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work. 14 If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. 15 If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames.

??? How is this supposed to prove a "bema" judgement?

1 Corinthians 4:2-5
2 Now it is required that those who have been given a trust must prove faithful. 3 I care very little if I am judged by you or by any human court; indeed, I do not even judge myself. 4 My conscience is clear, but that does not make me innocent. It is the Lord who judges me. 5 Therefore judge nothing before the appointed time; wait until the Lord comes. He will bring to light what is hidden in darkness and will expose the motives of the heart. At that time each will receive their praise from God.

Doesn't say this judgment is for the righteous only.

from the Greek word bema, is an event never mentioned in the detailed accounts connected with the second coming of Christ to the earth. Instead, the second coming brings with it God's judgment of unbelievers, usually expressed by some form of the Greek word krinô. Thus, it can be established from the biblical text that the bema-judgment applies only to church age believers, while the krinô-judgment is for unbelievers.

Seriously? This is your proof of a bema judgement? There is literally zero evidence here of a supposed "bema" judgment.
 
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LastSeven

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Yea post trib have problem , because how can elders sit on throne without thier bodies , and if they got bodies then rapture would need to happend for them to get thier resurrected bodies back .
Post trib has a problem? How about pre-trib trying to explain how our resurrection "on the last day" is not actually on the last day? You don't think that's a problem?
 
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Amazing Horse

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Post trib has a problem? How about pre-trib trying to explain how our resurrection "on the last day" is not actually on the last day? You don't think that's a problem?

It's on the last day of 6000 year of man on earth , then tribulation is rule of Satan on earth who proclaim himself as God , then 1000 year of Christ on earth .
 
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Amazing Horse

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Doesn't say this is for the righteous only. In fact it talks about both "the good and the bad".

Romans 14:10
10 You, then, why do you judge your brother or sister[a]? Or why do you treat them with contempt? For we will all stand before God’s judgment seat.

Doesn't say this is only for the righteous. In fact it says we will all stand before God.

1 Corinthians 3:10-15

10 By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as a wise builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should build with care. 11 For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13 their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work. 14 If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. 15 If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames.

??? How is this supposed to prove a "bema" judgement?

1 Corinthians 4:2-5
2 Now it is required that those who have been given a trust must prove faithful. 3 I care very little if I am judged by you or by any human court; indeed, I do not even judge myself. 4 My conscience is clear, but that does not make me innocent. It is the Lord who judges me. 5 Therefore judge nothing before the appointed time; wait until the Lord comes. He will bring to light what is hidden in darkness and will expose the motives of the heart. At that time each will receive their praise from God.

Doesn't say this judgment is for the righteous only.



Seriously? This is your proof of a bema judgement? There is literally zero evidence here of a supposed "bema" judgment.


2 Corinthians 5:10 Is talking to believers about rewards , non believers don't get rewards so why would they stay here .

1 Corinthians 3:15 - if this judgement is the same for bad people and good , they by this scripture you would assume that lost people are not going to burn in hell

But we know that Mark 9:48 so bible would contradict itself if there was only one judgement :satisfied:
 
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THE 24 ELDERS IN HEAVEN

The 24 elders of Revelation 4:1-5:14 are best understood as representative of the church. Dr. Charles Ryrie explains:

In the New Testament, elders as the highest officials in the church do represent the whole church (cf. Acts 15:6; 20:28), and in the Old Testament, twenty-four elders were appointed by King David to represent the entire Levitical priesthood (I Chron. 24). When those twenty-four elders met together in the temple precincts in Jerusalem, the entire priestly house was represented. Thus it seems more likely that the elders represent redeemed human beings, . . . the church is included and is thus in heaven before the tribulation begins.4

If these elders refer to the church, then it would mean at least two things: 1) It would necessitate the rapture and reward of the church before the tribulation and would require a chronological gap for them to perform their heavenly duties during the seven-year tribulation. 2) It would also show that the completed church was already in heaven before events of the tribulation begin.


The timing of the events of Revelation chapters 4&5 do not allow for a raptured church to be in heaven.

1. The scene described in heaven in chapter 4 shows God the Father on His throne verses 2 &3.

2. Around that throne were 24 seats on which sat 24 elders. Verse 4

3. Before the throne also were 7 lamps of fire (verse 5 )which are the 7 Spirits of God, Isaiah 11:2

4. In the midst of the throne and round about the throne were 4 beasts, verses 6-9.

5. What is missing is any mention of Jesus seated at the right hand of the Father as would be the case after His resurrection and ascension. Romans 8:34, Ephesians 1:20, Colossians 3:1, Hebrews 1:3, 8:1, 10:12,12:, 1 Peter 3:22.

6. Revelation 5:1-4 shows us God the Father on the throne with no man present who is worthy to open the book. Jesus had not yet ascended.

7. One of the elders announces Jesus has prevailed and is worthy to open the book. Verse 5

8. Jesus is now in heaven after His ascension, verses 6 & 7.

9. It is not possible the 24 elders are a raptured church in heaven before Christ arrives there Himself just after His resurrection and ascention.


Revelation 5:8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

The 4 beasts and the 24 elders fell before the Lamb. All 28 of them had harps and golden vials.

9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

All 28 sang the new song. The four beasts cannot be redeemed by the blood of Jesus.

ASV 9 And they sing a new song, saying, Worthy art thou to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou was slain, and didst purchase unto God with thy blood men of every tribe, and tongue, and people, and nation,

This translation offers no contradictions. All 28 beasts and elders could truthfully sing this song in worship as the scripture says they did.

10 KJVAnd hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

ASV 10 and madest them to be unto our God a kingdom and priests; and they reign upon earth.

In the ASV neither the beasts or the elders claim to be the redeemed. “Us” and “we” are translated “them” and “they” in the ASV.

11 And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands;

No resurrected immortal humans identified in this verse, all are heavenly beings. Beasts, elders and many angels. Based on the fact that the above scene (vs 1-4) is just before and the moment of the Lamb’s arrival in heaven the 24 could not include the 12 apostles or any other resurrected saints, they were still alive on the earth, there had been no rapture of the saints, the seals were not yet open. John did not see himself among the group. To simply declare the 24 elders are resurrected humans because of the word elders, with no evidence shows no discernment, regard for the text or common sense.

12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.

All of those mentioned in verse 11 were praising the Lamb.

13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

14 And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever.

Once again the 4 beasts are included with the 24 elders all worshiping “him that liveth for ever and ever”.


The timing of the events of Revelation chapters 4&5 do not allow for a raptured church to be in heaven.

1. The scene described in heaven in chapter 4 shows God the Father on His throne verses 2 &3.

2. Around that throne were 24 seats on which sat 24 elders. Verse 4

3. Before the throne also were 7 lamps of fire (verse 5 )which are the 7 Spirits of God, Isaiah 11:2

4. In the midst of the throne and round about the throne were 4 beasts, verses 6-9.

5. What is missing is any mention of Jesus seated at the right hand of the Father as would be the case after His resurrection and ascension. Romans 8:34, Ephesians 1:20, Colossians 3:1, Hebrews 1:3, 8:1, 10:12,12:, 1 Peter 3:22.

6. Revelation 5:1-4 shows us God the Father on the throne with no man present who is worthy to open the book. Jesus had not yet ascended.

7. One of the elders announces Jesus has prevailed and is worthy to open the book. Verse 5

8. Jesus is now in heaven after His ascension, verses 6 & 7.

9. It is not possible the 24 elders are a raptured church in heaven before Christ arrives there Himself just after His resurrection and ascention.


Revelation 5:8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

The 4 beasts and the 24 elders fell before the Lamb. All 28 of them had harps and golden vials.

9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

All 28 sang the new song. The four beasts cannot be redeemed by the blood of Jesus.

ASV 9 And they sing a new song, saying, Worthy art thou to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou was slain, and didst purchase unto God with thy blood men of every tribe, and tongue, and people, and nation,

This translation offers no contradictions. All 28 beasts and elders could truthfully sing this song in worship as the scripture says they did.

10 KJVAnd hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

ASV 10 and madest them to be unto our God a kingdom and priests; and they reign upon earth.

In the ASV neither the beasts or the elders claim to be the redeemed. “Us” and “we” are translated “them” and “they” in the ASV.

11 And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands;

No resurrected immortal humans identified in this verse, all are heavenly beings. Beasts, elders and many angels. Based on the fact that the above scene (vs 1-4) is just before and the moment of the Lamb’s arrival in heaven the 24 could not include the 12 apostles or any other resurrected saints, they were still alive on the earth, there had been no rapture of the saints, the seals were not yet open. John did not see himself among the group. To simply declare the 24 elders are resurrected humans because of the word elders, with no evidence shows no discernment, regard for the text or common sense.

12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.

All of those mentioned in verse 11 were praising the Lamb.

13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

14 And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever.

Once again the 4 beasts are included with the 24 elders all worshiping “him that liveth for ever and ever”.

The 24 elders are most likely created beings, part of the heavenly hosts just like the four beasts. The elders cannot refer to the church because the church had just begun when this took place in heaven.
 
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Amazing Horse

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The timing of the events of Revelation chapters 4&5 do not allow for a raptured church to be in heaven.

1. The scene described in heaven in chapter 4 shows God the Father on His throne verses 2 &3.

2. Around that throne were 24 seats on which sat 24 elders. Verse 4

3. Before the throne also were 7 lamps of fire (verse 5 )which are the 7 Spirits of God, Isaiah 11:2

4. In the midst of the throne and round about the throne were 4 beasts, verses 6-9.

5. What is missing is any mention of Jesus seated at the right hand of the Father as would be the case after His resurrection and ascension. Romans 8:34, Ephesians 1:20, Colossians 3:1, Hebrews 1:3, 8:1, 10:12,12:, 1 Peter 3:22.

6. Revelation 5:1-4 shows us God the Father on the throne with no man present who is worthy to open the book. Jesus had not yet ascended.

7. One of the elders announces Jesus has prevailed and is worthy to open the book. Verse 5

8. Jesus is now in heaven after His ascension, verses 6 & 7.

9. It is not possible the 24 elders are a raptured church in heaven before Christ arrives there Himself just after His resurrection and ascention.


Revelation 5:8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

The 4 beasts and the 24 elders fell before the Lamb. All 28 of them had harps and golden vials.

9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

All 28 sang the new song. The four beasts cannot be redeemed by the blood of Jesus.

ASV 9 And they sing a new song, saying, Worthy art thou to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou was slain, and didst purchase unto God with thy blood men of every tribe, and tongue, and people, and nation,

This translation offers no contradictions. All 28 beasts and elders could truthfully sing this song in worship as the scripture says they did.

10 KJVAnd hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

ASV 10 and madest them to be unto our God a kingdom and priests; and they reign upon earth.

In the ASV neither the beasts or the elders claim to be the redeemed. “Us” and “we” are translated “them” and “they” in the ASV.

11 And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands;

No resurrected immortal humans identified in this verse, all are heavenly beings. Beasts, elders and many angels. Based on the fact that the above scene (vs 1-4) is just before and the moment of the Lamb’s arrival in heaven the 24 could not include the 12 apostles or any other resurrected saints, they were still alive on the earth, there had been no rapture of the saints, the seals were not yet open. John did not see himself among the group. To simply declare the 24 elders are resurrected humans because of the word elders, with no evidence shows no discernment, regard for the text or common sense.

12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.

All of those mentioned in verse 11 were praising the Lamb.

13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

14 And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever.

Once again the 4 beasts are included with the 24 elders all worshiping “him that liveth for ever and ever”.


The timing of the events of Revelation chapters 4&5 do not allow for a raptured church to be in heaven.

1. The scene described in heaven in chapter 4 shows God the Father on His throne verses 2 &3.

2. Around that throne were 24 seats on which sat 24 elders. Verse 4

3. Before the throne also were 7 lamps of fire (verse 5 )which are the 7 Spirits of God, Isaiah 11:2

4. In the midst of the throne and round about the throne were 4 beasts, verses 6-9.

5. What is missing is any mention of Jesus seated at the right hand of the Father as would be the case after His resurrection and ascension. Romans 8:34, Ephesians 1:20, Colossians 3:1, Hebrews 1:3, 8:1, 10:12,12:, 1 Peter 3:22.

6. Revelation 5:1-4 shows us God the Father on the throne with no man present who is worthy to open the book. Jesus had not yet ascended.

7. One of the elders announces Jesus has prevailed and is worthy to open the book. Verse 5

8. Jesus is now in heaven after His ascension, verses 6 & 7.

9. It is not possible the 24 elders are a raptured church in heaven before Christ arrives there Himself just after His resurrection and ascention.


Revelation 5:8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

The 4 beasts and the 24 elders fell before the Lamb. All 28 of them had harps and golden vials.

9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

All 28 sang the new song. The four beasts cannot be redeemed by the blood of Jesus.

ASV 9 And they sing a new song, saying, Worthy art thou to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou was slain, and didst purchase unto God with thy blood men of every tribe, and tongue, and people, and nation,

This translation offers no contradictions. All 28 beasts and elders could truthfully sing this song in worship as the scripture says they did.

10 KJVAnd hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

ASV 10 and madest them to be unto our God a kingdom and priests; and they reign upon earth.

In the ASV neither the beasts or the elders claim to be the redeemed. “Us” and “we” are translated “them” and “they” in the ASV.

11 And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands;

No resurrected immortal humans identified in this verse, all are heavenly beings. Beasts, elders and many angels. Based on the fact that the above scene (vs 1-4) is just before and the moment of the Lamb’s arrival in heaven the 24 could not include the 12 apostles or any other resurrected saints, they were still alive on the earth, there had been no rapture of the saints, the seals were not yet open. John did not see himself among the group. To simply declare the 24 elders are resurrected humans because of the word elders, with no evidence shows no discernment, regard for the text or common sense.

12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.

All of those mentioned in verse 11 were praising the Lamb.

13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

14 And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever.

Once again the 4 beasts are included with the 24 elders all worshiping “him that liveth for ever and ever”.

The 24 elders are most likely created beings, part of the heavenly hosts just like the four beasts. The elders cannot refer to the church because the church had just begun when this took place in heaven.

If there is wedding in heaven Revelation 19:9 , and the Lamb is Jesus Christ John 1:29 and then bride is church 1 Corinthians 12:27 which is subject to husband Ephesians 5:24 and is one body with many members . Then why would wife be not invited for her own wedding in heaven in Revelation 19:9 ?
 
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Yea post trib have problem , because how can elders sit on throne without thier bodies , and if they got bodies then rapture would need to happend for them to get thier resurrected bodies back .

Can you make a case from scripture for a resurrected church in heaven without using the word “if”?
 
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If there is wedding in heaven Revelation 19:9 , and the Lamb is Jesus Christ John 1:29 and then bride is church 1 Corinthians 12:27 which is subject to husband Ephesians 5:24 and is one body with many members . Then why would wife be not invited for her own wedding in heaven in Revelation 19:9 ?

“If” the raptured church is in heaven in Revelation 4 and 5 how did they get there before Christ arrived there Himself?

Maybe read my post and try to answer some of the difficulties for your postion, like how are the 4 beasts redeemed by His blood?
 
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“If” the raptured church is in heaven in Revelation 4 and 5 how did they get there before Christ arrived there Himself?

Maybe read my post and try to answer some of the difficulties for your postion, like how are the 4 beasts redeemed by His blood?
Romans 5:10
 
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“If” the raptured church is in heaven in Revelation 4 and 5 how did they get there before Christ arrived there Himself?
Christ arrived in heaven as firstfruit , why would we arrive here at the same time ? He is now sitting on right hand of God while im on earth . Acts 2:33
 
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Sure
Matthew 12:50 then isaiah 26:19-21

Matthew 12:50 only mentions the Father as being in heaven. Strike one.

Isaiah 26:20 Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.

“if” you can show us any passage to support anyone hiding behind closed doors in a chamber in heaven, we will consider your point. Strike 2 you have one more strike.
 
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Matthew 12:50 only mentions the Father as being in heaven. Strike one.

Isaiah 26:20 Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.

“if” you can show us any passage to support anyone hiding behind closed doors in a chamber in heaven, we will consider your point. Strike 2 you have one more strike.
Maybe tell me your point on rapture and ill disprove it in one argument so we can end this pointless conversation. Is it mid post trib or no at all ?
 
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Christ arrived in heaven as firstfruit , why would we arrive here at the same time ? He is now sitting on right hand of God while im on earth . Acts 2:33

He is now but not in Revelation 4 & 5:1-4
 
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