Necessity of an Interval between the Rapture and the 2nd Coming

[LastSeven]

Have fun earning you way to heaven
Ephesians 1:13-14
Ephesians 2:8-9

Seriously? You can't prove a single thing you claim and you respond with this? Try testing your own beliefs against scripture as you should. You clearly haven't done that. You just believe what you want to believe, whether it's actually in scripture or not.

 

[Amazing Horse]

???? I don't understand how your brain works. Please explain to me how this verse...

Genesis 6:3
3 And Jehovah said, My spirit shall not strive with man for ever, for that he also is flesh: yet shall his days be a hundred and twenty years.

... proves that when Jesus said he would resurrect us on the last day, he didn't actually mean what he said but that he actually meant the last day of the first 6,000 years.

This should be good.

Waste of my time , Read book of romans first on eternal security then Galatians before you start to study things like Genesis 6:3

Ephesians 2:8-9

 

[Amazing Horse]

Seriously? You can't prove a single thing you claim and you respond with this? Try testing your own beliefs against scripture as you should. You clearly haven't done that. You just believe what you want to believe, whether it's actually in scripture or not.

Which part of gift of God not by works do you not understand ? the not part ?

 

[LastSeven]

If post tribulation is true , then you simply could know day of Jesus appearing contradicting Matthew 24:36 by simply adding 7 years ( 2550 )from beginning of tribulation or 1290 days since Abomination of Desolation( Daniel 9:27) , you could know to the exact day when he come back because there is no delay .

This silly argument assumes that there is a "7 year tribulation" of which we can discern the exact start date. First prove that this is true before your argument can hold any water.

 

[LastSeven]

Waste of my time , Read book of romans first on eternal security then Galatians before you start to study things like Genesis 6:3

Ephesians 2:8-9

I can't tell if you are not understanding the points being made against you or if you just don't understand scripture. Either way you're adding nothing to this conversation, except confusion.

 

[BABerean2]

I'm not from America and i don't know who that guy was , i gave you 5-6 scriptures aswell trying to explain it , not saying of myself so don't judge me thanks

You may not know who John Nelson Darby was, but you are promoting modern Dispensational Theology, whether you know it or not.
Nobody in Poland taught the doctrine you are promoting, before 1830.

Here is the original source of your doctrine.
However, it will take more than a few seconds to see the truth.

 

[Amazing Horse]

This silly argument assumes that there is a "7 year tribulation" of which we can discern the exact start date. First prove that this is true before your argument can hold any water.

Did you remove Ephesians 2:8-9 from your bible ?
Revelation 11:2-3 (1260 days - 3,5 years )
Revelation 12:6 ( 1260 days - 3,5 years )
Then there is Abomination of Desolation ( Daniel 9:27)

 

[Amazing Horse]

You may not know who John Nelson Darby was, but you are promoting modern Dispensational Theology, whether you know it or not.
Nobody in Poland taught the doctrine you are promoting, before 1830.

Here is the original source of your doctrine.
However, it will take more than a few seconds to see the truth.

It's about Genesis not Matthew and Luke ?

 

[Hal A Peno]

sdgf

 

[Copperhead]

I will add to the party here.

I see Revelation as not just chronological, but also some chapters as parenthetical. Kind of like overlay on a overhead projector (sorry, showing my age).

I have come to see Revelation 12, where the child is caught up after being delivered by the woman (Israel) as the church, or body of the Messiah. The Greek word Harpazo, or forcibly snatching up, really cannot be applied to the Messiah in His first coming, as He was neither forcibly snatched up at His birth or His ascension. We are his body, and we are to rule with a rod of iron along side of Him.

1 Corinthians 12:27 (NKJV) Now you are the body of Christ, and members individually.

Revelation 2:26-27 (NKJV) And he who overcomes, and keeps My works until the end, to him I will give power over the nations—
27 “He shall rule them with a rod of iron;
They shall be dashed to pieces like the potter's vessels’—as I also have received from My Father;

And, I also see many references that this catching up of the Church likely occurring at a Rosh Hashanah, or feast of trumpets. And that it also coincides with beginning before the 70th week of Daniel commences. Rosh Hashanah is the only Moed, or appointed time, that falls on the first of a month. It is also called "the day that no man knows" because it cannot be determined when it begins until the new moon has been declared by at least two temple witnesses. It is a two day festival. The Last trump is associated with this festival. The resurrection is associated with this festival because it's other name is called Yom Teruah, or "the Awakening Blast". Also, the last trump is a enduring sound that is done at "the twinkling of an eye" or the last sliver of sun is still visible before setting at the end of the festival. I am convinced that Paul, a premier Pharisee trained in the venerated school of Gamliel, had this festival in view.

Matthew 24:36 (NKJV) “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, but My Father only.

1 Corinthians 15:51-52 (NKJV) Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

And that this occurs at the beginning of the tribulation period / Jacob's Trouble / 70th week of Daniel.

Isaiah 66:7-8 (NKJV) “Before she was in labor, she gave birth;
Before her pain came,
She delivered a male child.
8 Who has heard such a thing?
Who has seen such things?
Shall the earth be made to give birth in one day?
Or shall a nation be born at once?
For as soon as Zion was in labor,
She gave birth to her children.

Jeremiah 30:6-7 (NKJV) Ask now, and see,
Whether a man is ever in labor with child?
So why do I see every man with his hands on his loins
Like a woman in labor,
And all faces turned pale?
7 Alas! For that day is great,
So that none is like it;
And it is the time of Jacob's trouble,
But he shall be saved out of it.

We the church are a nation.....

1 Peter 2:9 (NKJV) But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;

Rosh Hashanah is a two day festival that commences on Tishri 1. The Day of Atonement or Yom Kippur is on Tishri 10. There are 7 days between these festivals that correspond to the 7 days of the 70th week of Daniel.

Since Yeshua fulfilled all the spring feasts, and God seems to be a stickler for using these feasts (Moedim or appointed times) which are Miqra or rehersals for future events as stated in Leviticus 23, it stands to reason that the fall festivals speak of the end times events.

Just a thought. I am sure there are some details that are in error. But given that the scriptures were mostly written by Jewish authors regarding the Lion of the tribe of Judah, Yeshua, it might be wise to consider a more Hebrew approach to looking at these passages instead of a western mindset with preconceived ideas.

But it might be wise to follow the prescription of Proverbs 18:13 and Acts 17:11 before firing shots at me regarding this.

 

[LastSeven]

Did you remove Ephesians 2:8-9 from your bible ?
Revelation 11:2-3 (1260 days - 3,5 years )
Revelation 12:6 ( 1260 days - 3,5 years )
Then there is Abomination of Desolation ( Daniel 9:27)

Ephesians has nothing to do with this. The rest of your examples are historical references, not future.

 

[Copperhead]

Last trumpet is not 7th , there are trumpets in millenium , also trumpets in tribulation are blown by angels not God .

You are correct.

The trumpets in the Revelation were not known to Paul when he wrote about the last trump. Revelation 1:1 makes it clear that God the Father revealed this information to Yeshua with the intent that it be given to us, which He immediately did thru John. The Revelation came long after Paul wrote about the last trump, so there is no way he could have been referring to the 7th trumpet. It had not been revealed to Yeshua yet, so Paul could not have known either.

My contention is that the last trump that Paul referred to was a future Rosh Hashanah / feast of trumpets which is a two day festival that no one can know the day or the hour that the last trump of the festival is blown, which also is at the twinkling of an eye, or the last sliver of the sun as it sets on the last day of the festival.

 

[Revealing Times]

Post trib has a problem? How about pre-trib trying to explain how our resurrection "on the last day" is not actually on the last day? You don't think that's a problem?

Jesus fulfilled the Passover, Unleavened Bread, and First-fruits.

Jesus ascended, offered the Sacrifice, RETURNED and the Apostle Thomas thrust his hand in his side, later Jesus gave them the Holy Spirit on the day of PENTECOST so the first three Feasts were fulfilled, we are now in the CHURCH AGE (Pentecost) and at the LAST DAY of Pentecost, Jesus will call the Church home, both dead and alive, with the LAST TRUMP, which just so happens to be the First of the three FALL FEASTS........Feast of Trumpets.

Feast of Atonement = Israel must Atone while the Church is in Heaven.

Feast of Tabernacles = Israel Dwells with God/Jesus when he returns. Tabernacle means to Dwell with God.

Its a nice pattern, God is perfect in all His ways, and symmetrical.

 

[Revealing Times]

6. Revelation 5:1-4 shows us God the Father on the throne with no man present who is worthy to open the book. Jesus had not yet ascended.

7. One of the elders announces Jesus has prevailed and is worthy to open the book. Verse 5

I have had to prove this wrong 1000's of time, it always amazes me at the length people will go trying to prove the old traditions of OTHER MEN they carry water for just to back up preconceived notions. The very scriptures you cite prove this notion is faulty.

Rev. 5:2 And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof? 3 And no man in heaven, NOR IN EARTH, neither UNDER THE EARTH ( So where is Jesus? NOWHERE !! ), was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.

4 And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon. 5 And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.

Jesus was in Heaven as the Lamb in Johns vision, sitting in the THRONE ROOM. By your (other peoples traditions for YEARS) interpretation, since Jesus is not in Heaven, then he can't be ON EARTH or UNDER THE EARTH either, so Jesus is Nowhere by your own interpretation. You want to say he ASCENDED, but the very same verse says hes not on EARTH, so you are being inconsistent, to make a point, but the overall point is really this.

Of course this scripture has nothing to do with Jesus still being on Earth, its something someone contrived in their mind years ago, even though the facts prove it illogical. The logic is that Jesus ascended to the Father as the LAMB, thus the Elder pointed to the Lamb as Worthy, and he was in Heaven all the time, John just didn't see him. To suggest he wasn't in the throne room, would be to suggest he was NOWHERE.

Rev. 3 Ends the Church age, Rev. 4 and 5 is the Church in Heaven, Rev. 6 is the Anti-Christ/Beast coming forth and the Day of the Lord starts. Rev. 7 is the Church in Heaven, the Saints came out of the Great Tribulation, a 2000 year period which is greater than the 7 years of Jacobs Troubles.

Rev. 19 is the full 7 year picture of the Church in heaven.

 

[Quasar92]

Doesn't say this is for the righteous only. In fact it talks about both "the good and the bad".

Romans 14:10
10 You, then, why do you judge your brother or sister[a]? Or why do you treat them with contempt? For we will all stand before God’s judgment seat.

Doesn't say this is only for the righteous. In fact it says we will all stand before God.

1 Corinthians 3:10-15
10 By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as a wise builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should build with care. 11 For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13 their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work. 14 If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. 15 If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames.

??? How is this supposed to prove a "bema" judgement?

1 Corinthians 4:2-5
2 Now it is required that those who have been given a trust must prove faithful. 3 I care very little if I am judged by you or by any human court; indeed, I do not even judge myself. 4 My conscience is clear, but that does not make me innocent. It is the Lord who judges me. 5 Therefore judge nothing before the appointed time; wait until the Lord comes. He will bring to light what is hidden in darkness and will expose the motives of the heart. At that time each will receive their praise from God.

Doesn't say this judgment is for the righteous only.



Seriously? This is your proof of a bema judgement? There is literally zero evidence here of a supposed "bema" judgment.

One of the prominent doctrines of the New Testament is the Doctrine of Rewards and the Judgment Seat of Christ. It is a doctrine often ignored or, when taught, it is misrepresented because of the term “judgment” that is used in translating the Greek text. Commenting on this Samuel Hoyt writes:

Within the church today there exists considerable confusion and debate regarding the exact nature of the examination at the judgment seat of Christ. The expression “the judgment seat of Christ” in the English Bible has tended to cause some to draw the wrong conclusion about the nature and purpose of this evaluation. A common misconception which arises from this English translation is that God will mete out a just retribution for sins in the believer’s life, and some measure of retributive punishment for sins will result.1

As it will be shown below, though it is tremendously serious with eternal ramifications, the judgment seat of Christ is not a place and time when the Lord will mete out punishment for sins committed by the child of God. Rather, it is a place where rewards will be given or lost depending on how one has used his or her life for the Lord.

In 1 Thessalonians 2:19-20, the Apostle Paul drew courage and was motivated by the fact of rewards at the return of the Lord for the church which he mentions in every chapter in this epistle and becomes the primary subject of 2 Thessalonians. The Lord’s return and what this means not only to the world but to us individually is a very prominent subject of the New Testament.

It is significant that among the final words of Revelation, the last book of the Bible, we find these words of the Lord:

Rev. 22:12 Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done.

While salvation is a gift, there are rewards given for faithfulness in the Christian life and loss of rewards for unfaithfulness. Rewards become one of the great motives of the Christian’s life or should. But we need to understand the nature of these rewards to understand the nature of the motivation. Some people are troubled by the doctrine of rewards because this seems to suggest “merit” instead of “grace,” and because, it is pointed out, we should only serve the Lord out of love and for God’s glory.

Of course we should serve the Lord out of love and for God’s glory, and understanding the nature of rewards will help us do that. But the fact still remains that the Bible promises us rewards. God gives us salvation. It is a gift through faith, but He rewards us for good works. God graciously supplies the means by which we may serve Him. Indeed, He works in us both to will and to do as we volitionally appropriate His grace (Phil. 2:12-13), but the decision to serve, and the diligence employed in doing so, are our responsibility and our contribution and God sees this as rewardable. Compare the following passages:

1 Corinthians 15:10 But by the grace of God I am what I am, and His grace toward me did not prove vain; but I labored even more than all of them, yet not I, but the grace of God with me.


Colossians 1:29 And for this purpose also I labor, striving according to His power, which mightily works within me.


Key Verses on Rewards: Rom. 14:10-11; 1 Cor. 3:11-15; 2 Cor. 5:9-10; 1 John 2:28; Rev. 3:11-12.


The Meaning of the
Judgment (Bema) Seat
Both Romans 14:10 and 2 Corinthians 5:9 speak of the “judgment seat.” This is a translation of one Greek word, the word bema. While bema is used in the gospels and Acts of the raised platform where a Roman magistrate or ruler sat to make decisions and pass sentence (Matt. 27:19; John 19:13), its use in the epistles by Paul, because of his many allusions to the Greek athletic contests, is more in keeping with its original use among the Greeks.

This word was taken from Isthmian games where the contestants would compete for the prize under the careful scrutiny of judges who would make sure that every rule of the contest was obeyed (cf. 2 Tim. 2:5). The victor of a given event who participated according to the rules was led by the judge to the platform called the Bema. There the laurel wreath was placed on his head as a symbol of victory (cf. 1 Cor. 9:24-25).

In all of these passages, “Paul was picturing the believer as a competitor in a spiritual contest. As the victorious Grecian athlete appeared before the Bema to receive his perishable award, so the Christian will appear before Christ’s Bema to receive his imperishable award. The judge at the Bema bestowed rewards to the victors. He did not whip the losers.”2 We might add, neither did he sentence them to hard labor.

In other words, it is a reward seat and portrays a time of rewards or loss of rewards following examination, but it is not a time of punishment where believers are judged for their sins. Such would be inconsistent with the finished work of Christ on the Cross because He totally paid the penalty for our sins. Chafer and Walvoord have an excellent word on this view:

With reference to sin, Scripture teaches that the child of God under grace shall not come into judgment (John 3:18; 5:24; 6:37; Rom. 5:1; 8:1; 1 Cor. 11:32); in his standing before God, and on the ground that the penalty for all sin—past, present, and future (Col. 2:13)—has been borne by Christ as the perfect Substitute, the believer is not only placed beyond condemnation, but being in Christ is accepted in the perfection of Christ (1 Cor. 1:30; Eph. 1:6; Col. 2:10; Heb. 10:14) and loved of God as Christ is loved (John 17:23).3

Again, Chafer writes concerning the Bema, “It cannot be too strongly emphasized that the judgment is unrelated to the problem of sin, that it is more for the bestowing of rewards than the rejection of failure.”4

The Time of the Bema
This event will occur immediately following the rapture or resurrection of the church after it is caught up to be with the Lord in the air as described in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18.

For the rest of the article:

The Doctrine of Rewards: The Judgment Seat (Bema) of Christ



Quasar92

 

[Quasar92]

The timing of the events of Revelation chapters 4&5 do not allow for a raptured church to be in heaven.

1. The scene described in heaven in chapter 4 shows God the Father on His throne verses 2 &3.

2. Around that throne were 24 seats on which sat 24 elders. Verse 4

3. Before the throne also were 7 lamps of fire (verse 5 )which are the 7 Spirits of God, Isaiah 11:2

4. In the midst of the throne and round about the throne were 4 beasts, verses 6-9.

5. What is missing is any mention of Jesus seated at the right hand of the Father as would be the case after His resurrection and ascension. Romans 8:34, Ephesians 1:20, Colossians 3:1, Hebrews 1:3, 8:1, 10:12,12:, 1 Peter 3:22.

6. Revelation 5:1-4 shows us God the Father on the throne with no man present who is worthy to open the book. Jesus had not yet ascended.

7. One of the elders announces Jesus has prevailed and is worthy to open the book. Verse 5

8. Jesus is now in heaven after His ascension, verses 6 & 7.

9. It is not possible the 24 elders are a raptured church in heaven before Christ arrives there Himself just after His resurrection and ascention.


Revelation 5:8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

The 4 beasts and the 24 elders fell before the Lamb. All 28 of them had harps and golden vials.

9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

All 28 sang the new song. The four beasts cannot be redeemed by the blood of Jesus.

ASV 9 And they sing a new song, saying, Worthy art thou to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou was slain, and didst purchase unto God with thy blood men of every tribe, and tongue, and people, and nation,

This translation offers no contradictions. All 28 beasts and elders could truthfully sing this song in worship as the scripture says they did.

10 KJVAnd hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

ASV 10 and madest them to be unto our God a kingdom and priests; and they reign upon earth.

In the ASV neither the beasts or the elders claim to be the redeemed. “Us” and “we” are translated “them” and “they” in the ASV.

11 And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands;

No resurrected immortal humans identified in this verse, all are heavenly beings. Beasts, elders and many angels. Based on the fact that the above scene (vs 1-4) is just before and the moment of the Lamb’s arrival in heaven the 24 could not include the 12 apostles or any other resurrected saints, they were still alive on the earth, there had been no rapture of the saints, the seals were not yet open. John did not see himself among the group. To simply declare the 24 elders are resurrected humans because of the word elders, with no evidence shows no discernment, regard for the text or common sense.

12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.

All of those mentioned in verse 11 were praising the Lamb.

13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

14 And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever.

Once again the 4 beasts are included with the 24 elders all worshiping “him that liveth for ever and ever”.


The timing of the events of Revelation chapters 4&5 do not allow for a raptured church to be in heaven.

1. The scene described in heaven in chapter 4 shows God the Father on His throne verses 2 &3.

2. Around that throne were 24 seats on which sat 24 elders. Verse 4

3. Before the throne also were 7 lamps of fire (verse 5 )which are the 7 Spirits of God, Isaiah 11:2

4. In the midst of the throne and round about the throne were 4 beasts, verses 6-9.

5. What is missing is any mention of Jesus seated at the right hand of the Father as would be the case after His resurrection and ascension. Romans 8:34, Ephesians 1:20, Colossians 3:1, Hebrews 1:3, 8:1, 10:12,12:, 1 Peter 3:22.

6. Revelation 5:1-4 shows us God the Father on the throne with no man present who is worthy to open the book. Jesus had not yet ascended.

7. One of the elders announces Jesus has prevailed and is worthy to open the book. Verse 5

8. Jesus is now in heaven after His ascension, verses 6 & 7.

9. It is not possible the 24 elders are a raptured church in heaven before Christ arrives there Himself just after His resurrection and ascention.


Revelation 5:8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

The 4 beasts and the 24 elders fell before the Lamb. All 28 of them had harps and golden vials.

9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

All 28 sang the new song. The four beasts cannot be redeemed by the blood of Jesus.

ASV 9 And they sing a new song, saying, Worthy art thou to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou was slain, and didst purchase unto God with thy blood men of every tribe, and tongue, and people, and nation,

This translation offers no contradictions. All 28 beasts and elders could truthfully sing this song in worship as the scripture says they did.

10 KJVAnd hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

ASV 10 and madest them to be unto our God a kingdom and priests; and they reign upon earth.

In the ASV neither the beasts or the elders claim to be the redeemed. “Us” and “we” are translated “them” and “they” in the ASV.

11 And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands;

No resurrected immortal humans identified in this verse, all are heavenly beings. Beasts, elders and many angels. Based on the fact that the above scene (vs 1-4) is just before and the moment of the Lamb’s arrival in heaven the 24 could not include the 12 apostles or any other resurrected saints, they were still alive on the earth, there had been no rapture of the saints, the seals were not yet open. John did not see himself among the group. To simply declare the 24 elders are resurrected humans because of the word elders, with no evidence shows no discernment, regard for the text or common sense.

12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.

All of those mentioned in verse 11 were praising the Lamb.

13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

14 And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever.

Once again the 4 beasts are included with the 24 elders all worshiping “him that liveth for ever and ever”.

The 24 elders are most likely created beings, part of the heavenly hosts just like the four beasts. The elders cannot refer to the church because the church had just begun when this took place in heaven.

The timing of the events of Revelation chapters 4&5 do not allow for a raptured church to be in heaven.

1. The scene described in heaven in chapter 4 shows God the Father on His throne verses 2 &3.

2. Around that throne were 24 seats on which sat 24 elders. Verse 4

3. Before the throne also were 7 lamps of fire (verse 5 )which are the 7 Spirits of God, Isaiah 11:2

4. In the midst of the throne and round about the throne were 4 beasts, verses 6-9.

5. What is missing is any mention of Jesus seated at the right hand of the Father as would be the case after His resurrection and ascension. Romans 8:34, Ephesians 1:20, Colossians 3:1, Hebrews 1:3, 8:1, 10:12,12:, 1 Peter 3:22.

6. Revelation 5:1-4 shows us God the Father on the throne with no man present who is worthy to open the book. Jesus had not yet ascended.

7. One of the elders announces Jesus has prevailed and is worthy to open the book. Verse 5

8. Jesus is now in heaven after His ascension, verses 6 & 7.

9. It is not possible the 24 elders are a raptured church in heaven before Christ arrives there Himself just after His resurrection and ascention.


Revelation 5:8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

The 4 beasts and the 24 elders fell before the Lamb. All 28 of them had harps and golden vials.

9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

All 28 sang the new song. The four beasts cannot be redeemed by the blood of Jesus.

ASV 9 And they sing a new song, saying, Worthy art thou to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou was slain, and didst purchase unto God with thy blood men of every tribe, and tongue, and people, and nation,

This translation offers no contradictions. All 28 beasts and elders could truthfully sing this song in worship as the scripture says they did.

10 KJVAnd hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

ASV 10 and madest them to be unto our God a kingdom and priests; and they reign upon earth.

In the ASV neither the beasts or the elders claim to be the redeemed. “Us” and “we” are translated “them” and “they” in the ASV.

11 And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands;

No resurrected immortal humans identified in this verse, all are heavenly beings. Beasts, elders and many angels. Based on the fact that the above scene (vs 1-4) is just before and the moment of the Lamb’s arrival in heaven the 24 could not include the 12 apostles or any other resurrected saints, they were still alive on the earth, there had been no rapture of the saints, the seals were not yet open. John did not see himself among the group. To simply declare the 24 elders are resurrected humans because of the word elders, with no evidence shows no discernment, regard for the text or common sense.

12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.

All of those mentioned in verse 11 were praising the Lamb.

13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

14 And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever.

Once again the 4 beasts are included with the 24 elders all worshiping “him that liveth for ever and ever”.


The timing of the events of Revelation chapters 4&5 do not allow for a raptured church to be in heaven.

1. The scene described in heaven in chapter 4 shows God the Father on His throne verses 2 &3.

2. Around that throne were 24 seats on which sat 24 elders. Verse 4

3. Before the throne also were 7 lamps of fire (verse 5 )which are the 7 Spirits of God, Isaiah 11:2

4. In the midst of the throne and round about the throne were 4 beasts, verses 6-9.

5. What is missing is any mention of Jesus seated at the right hand of the Father as would be the case after His resurrection and ascension. Romans 8:34, Ephesians 1:20, Colossians 3:1, Hebrews 1:3, 8:1, 10:12,12:, 1 Peter 3:22.

6. Revelation 5:1-4 shows us God the Father on the throne with no man present who is worthy to open the book. Jesus had not yet ascended.

7. One of the elders announces Jesus has prevailed and is worthy to open the book. Verse 5

8. Jesus is now in heaven after His ascension, verses 6 & 7.

9. It is not possible the 24 elders are a raptured church in heaven before Christ arrives there Himself just after His resurrection and ascention.


Revelation 5:8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

The 4 beasts and the 24 elders fell before the Lamb. All 28 of them had harps and golden vials.

9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

All 28 sang the new song. The four beasts cannot be redeemed by the blood of Jesus.

ASV 9 And they sing a new song, saying, Worthy art thou to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou was slain, and didst purchase unto God with thy blood men of every tribe, and tongue, and people, and nation,

This translation offers no contradictions. All 28 beasts and elders could truthfully sing this song in worship as the scripture says they did.

10 KJVAnd hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

ASV 10 and madest them to be unto our God a kingdom and priests; and they reign upon earth.

In the ASV neither the beasts or the elders claim to be the redeemed. “Us” and “we” are translated “them” and “they” in the ASV.

11 And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands;

No resurrected immortal humans identified in this verse, all are heavenly beings. Beasts, elders and many angels. Based on the fact that the above scene (vs 1-4) is just before and the moment of the Lamb’s arrival in heaven the 24 could not include the 12 apostles or any other resurrected saints, they were still alive on the earth, there had been no rapture of the saints, the seals were not yet open. John did not see himself among the group. To simply declare the 24 elders are resurrected humans because of the word elders, with no evidence shows no discernment, regard for the text or common sense.

12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.

All of those mentioned in verse 11 were praising the Lamb.

13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

14 And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever.

Once again the 4 beasts are included with the 24 elders all worshiping “him that liveth for ever and ever”.

The 24 elders are most likely created beings, part of the heavenly hosts just like the four beasts. The elders cannot refer to the church because the church had just begun when this took place in heaven.

Scriptural verification of the Church being in heaven BEFORE the tribulation begins:

2 Thess.2:1-8: The precise timing of the rapture of the Church:

"Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to Him, we ask you, brothers, not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the Day of the Lord [The 70th and final Week/seven year tribulation of Dan.9:27] has already come." 2 Thes.2:1-2. Which is a direct reference to 1 Thes.4:17 and the theme of Paul's entire pre-trib rapture message in 2 Thes.2:1-8. When we will be CAUGHT UP TOGETHER WITH THEM IN THE CLOUDS TO MEET THE LORD IN THE AIR. [Parenthetics mine].

The "Day of the Lord" Paul refers to in vs 2, alludes to Dan.9:27, when God will intervene into the affairs of man for the last time, culminating in the second coming of Jesus to the earth. In that passage of Scripture, the Day of the Lord is triggered by the "he" who "confirms a covenant [An agreement] for one Week" [The Day of the Lord/ 70th and final Week/seven year tribulation], who is the antichrist. The second, and same "he," who stops Israel from the offerings and sacrificing in the temple of God, and the third, and same "he," who breaks his covenant in the middle of the Week [After 3.5 of the 7 year total], and sets up the abomination of desolation Jesus referred to in Mt.24:15, in His Olivet Discourse, about the sign of His second coming, and of the end of the age.

In vs 3: "Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that Day [The Day of the Lord, the 70th and final Week, the seven year tribulation] will not come, until the "apostasia" [Greek term in which the original translation was "to depart," or "departure," meaning, the rapture of the Church] occurs and the man of lawlessness [The antichrist, and all three of the "he's" in Dan.9:27] is revealed [Who triggers the Day of the Lord/ the 70th and final Week/ the seven year tribulation], the man doomed to destruction." Which reveals the "apostasia" [Departure] will take place before the antichrist is revealed, who triggers the 70th Week/seven year tribulation. Confirmed in verses 7 and 8 below.

Translation History of apostasia and discessio: By Thomas Ice, PhD.

The first seven English translations of apostasia all rendered the noun as either " departure" or " departing," not "falling away" or "apostasy," it was changed to 13 centuries later. They are as follows: Wycliffe Bible (1384); Tyndale Bible (1526); Coverdale Bible (1535); Cranmer Bible (1539); Breeches Bible (1576); Beza Bible (1583); Geneva Bible (1608) . This supports the notion that the word truly means " departure." In fact, Jerome' s Latin translation known as the Vulgate from around the time of 325 A.D. renders apostasia with the " word discessio, meaning ' departure.' Why was the King James Version the first to depart from the established translation of "departure" in 1611 A.D.? [It is more than likely due to overzealous RCC scribes who altered the original wording of vs 3. to accommodate their teachings of Amillenialism, which rejects both the pre-trib rapture of the Church as well as Jesus Millennial reign her on earth].

Theodore Beza, the Swiss reformer was the first to transliterate apostasia and create a new word, rather than translate it as others had done. The translators of the King James Version were the first to introduce the new rendering of apostasia as " falling away." Most English translators have followed the KJV and Beza in departing from translating apostasia as " departure." No reason was ever given.

"He [The antichrist] will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God." Vs 4. [The abomination of desolation, confirming Dan.9:27 and Mt.24:15]. See also 2 Thes.2:4.

The rapture of the Church and verse 3 confirmed:
In vs 7: "For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so until he [The saints - Church] is taken out of the way."

The "he" who will be taken out of the way, is the one body of Christ, who bear the Holy Spirit within each of us [Eph.1:13-14], the Church of Jesus Christ. The very same as those who will participate in the "apostasia," the "departure," [the rapture] of the Church, in vs 3. Immediately following that:

In vs 8: "And then the lawless one [The antichrist] will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of His mouth and destroy by the splendor of His coming." Vs 8. [See Rev.19:17-21].

The antichrist is found in all three of the "he's" in Dan. 9:27, confirmed by Jesus in Mt.24:15; Mk.13:14 and by Paul, in 2 Thes.2:3, 4 and 8.


Quasar92

 

[LastSeven]

Jesus fulfilled the Passover, Unleavened Bread, and First-fruits.

Jesus ascended, offered the Sacrifice, RETURNED and the Apostle Thomas thrust his hand in his side, later Jesus gave them the Holy Spirit on the day of PENTECOST so the first three Feasts were fulfilled, we are now in the CHURCH AGE (Pentecost) and at the LAST DAY of Pentecost, Jesus will call the Church home, both dead and alive, with the LAST TRUMP, which just so happens to be the First of the three FALL FEASTS........Feast of Trumpets.

Feast of Atonement = Israel must Atone while the Church is in Heaven.

Feast of Tabernacles = Israel Dwells with God/Jesus when he returns. Tabernacle means to Dwell with God.

Its a nice pattern, God is perfect in all His ways, and symmetrical.

Thanks but I'm not sure how any of that pertains to my comment.

 

[jgr]

Scriptural verification of the Church being in heaven BEFORE the tribulation begins:

2 Thess.2:1-8: The precise timing of the rapture of the Church:

"Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to Him, we ask you, brothers, not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the Day of the Lord [The 70th and final Week/seven year tribulation of Dan.9:27] has already come." 2 Thes.2:1-2. Which is a direct reference to 1 Thes.4:17 and the theme of Paul's entire pre-trib rapture message in 2 Thes.2:1-8. When we will be CAUGHT UP TOGETHER WITH THEM IN THE CLOUDS TO MEET THE LORD IN THE AIR. [Parenthetics mine].

The "Day of the Lord" Paul refers to in vs 2, alludes to Dan.9:27, when God will intervene into the affairs of man for the last time, culminating in the second coming of Jesus to the earth. In that passage of Scripture, the Day of the Lord is triggered by the "he" who "confirms a covenant [An agreement] for one Week" [The Day of the Lord/ 70th and final Week/seven year tribulation], who is the antichrist. The second, and same "he," who stops Israel from the offerings and sacrificing in the temple of God, and the third, and same "he," who breaks his covenant in the middle of the Week [After 3.5 of the 7 year total], and sets up the abomination of desolation Jesus referred to in Mt.24:15, in His Olivet Discourse, about the sign of His second coming, and of the end of the age.

In vs 3: "Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that Day [The Day of the Lord, the 70th and final Week, the seven year tribulation] will not come, until the "apostasia" [Greek term in which the original translation was "to depart," or "departure," meaning, the rapture of the Church] occurs and the man of lawlessness [The antichrist, and all three of the "he's" in Dan.9:27] is revealed [Who triggers the Day of the Lord/ the 70th and final Week/ the seven year tribulation], the man doomed to destruction." Which reveals the "apostasia" [Departure] will take place before the antichrist is revealed, who triggers the 70th Week/seven year tribulation. Confirmed in verses 7 and 8 below.

Translation History of apostasia and discessio: By Thomas Ice, PhD.

The first seven English translations of apostasia all rendered the noun as either " departure" or " departing," not "falling away" or "apostasy," it was changed to 13 centuries later. They are as follows: Wycliffe Bible (1384); Tyndale Bible (1526); Coverdale Bible (1535); Cranmer Bible (1539); Breeches Bible (1576); Beza Bible (1583); Geneva Bible (1608) . This supports the notion that the word truly means " departure." In fact, Jerome' s Latin translation known as the Vulgate from around the time of 325 A.D. renders apostasia with the " word discessio, meaning ' departure.' Why was the King James Version the first to depart from the established translation of "departure" in 1611 A.D.? [It is more than likely due to overzealous RCC scribes who altered the original wording of vs 3. to accommodate their teachings of Amillenialism, which rejects both the pre-trib rapture of the Church as well as Jesus Millennial reign her on earth].

Theodore Beza, the Swiss reformer was the first to transliterate apostasia and create a new word, rather than translate it as others had done. The translators of the King James Version were the first to introduce the new rendering of apostasia as " falling away." Most English translators have followed the KJV and Beza in departing from translating apostasia as " departure." No reason was ever given.

"He [The antichrist] will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God." Vs 4. [The abomination of desolation, confirming Dan.9:27 and Mt.24:15]. See also 2 Thes.2:4.

The rapture of the Church and verse 3 confirmed:
In vs 7: "For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so until he [The saints - Church] is taken out of the way."

The "he" who will be taken out of the way, is the one body of Christ, who bear the Holy Spirit within each of us [Eph.1:13-14], the Church of Jesus Christ. The very same as those who will participate in the "apostasia," the "departure," [the rapture] of the Church, in vs 3. Immediately following that:

In vs 8: "And then the lawless one [The antichrist] will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of His mouth and destroy by the splendor of His coming." Vs 8. [See Rev.19:17-21].

The antichrist is found in all three of the "he's" in Dan. 9:27, confirmed by Jesus in Mt.24:15; Mk.13:14 and by Paul, in 2 Thes.2:3, 4 and 8.


Quasar92

Debunked.

Here is the elaboration on 2 Thes. 2:3 in the Wycliffe translation:

3 [That] No man deceive you in any manner. For but dissension come first [For no but departing away, or dissension, shall come first], and the man of sin be showed, the son of perdition

Note that dissension (consistent with apostasy, separation, schism) is the elaboration. Rapture is unseen.

Departing/departure means departure from the truth i.e. apostasy, not rapture; falling away, not flying away.

Wycliffe himself identified antichrist as the papacy, at whose hands the true church was suffering. He unquestionably therefore did not believe in a pretrib rapture.


And from Calvin's Geneva Study Bible:

Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Calvin also identified antichrist as the papacy, and thus did not believe in a pretrib rapture.
Same with Tyndale. He was martyred by the papacy.
Same with Cranmer. He too was martyred by the papacy.
Coverdale was an associate of Tyndale's, and of like persuasion.
Beza was also of like persuasion.

There is no Reformer who defined the word as anything other than apostasy.

A definition of "discessio," the word used in the Vulgate, is found at this site.

Included near the end is a specific ecclesiological subdefinition:
"In the church, a separation, schism (eccl. Lat.), Vulg. Act. 21, 21; id. 2 Thes. 2, 3."

Occurrences are cited as being Acts 21:21 and 2 Thes. 2:3.

Letting Scripture interpret Scripture, the use of the word in Acts 21:21 is translated "forsake," which is fully consistent with the subdefinition above, and has nothing to do with rapture.

Apostacia: What Modern Greeks say about "Apostacia" in 2 Thess 2:3.

Excerpt: "I could find no debate among Greek speaking Christians on how to interpret this verse. They all interpret "apostacia" in 2 Thess 2:3 to mean "apostacy"."

Does Apostasia in 2 Thessalonians 2:3 Refer to a ‘Physical Departure’ (i.e. the Rapture)?

2 Thess 2:3 in the Early Church Writings; How early Greek, Latin and Aramaic speaking Christians interpreted "Apostacia"/"Apostacy

The Latin Influence on 2 Thess 2:3


The early church believed that the imperial Roman empire, under which the church was then living, was the restrainer which would eventually be "taken out of the way", but which was forestalling the emergence of the papal Roman empire, which Paul describes as the lawless one; and its ensuing apostasy. Notice in the related verses in 2 Thess. 2 that Paul does not reveal the identity of the restrainer. If Paul had believed that the Holy Spirit was the restrainer, there would have been no reason for him not to explicitly name the Holy Spirit. But Paul did have a reason. John Chrysostom, an apologist of the later early post-apostolic era, reveals it:

"Because if he meant to say the Spirit, he would not have spoken obscurely, but plainly, that even now the grace of the Spirit, that is the gifts, withhold him. And otherwise he ought now to have come, if he was about to come when the gifts ceased; for they have long since ceased. But because he said this of the Roman empire, he naturally glanced at it, and speaks covertly and darkly. For he did not wish to bring upon himself superfluous enmities, and useless dangers. For if he had said that after a little while the Roman empire would be dissolved, they would immediately have even overwhelmed him, as a pestilent person, and all the faithful, as living and warring to this end."

Paul did not wish to jeopardize the Church by attracting the attention of the Roman authorities.

History subsequently confirmed the accuracy of Paul's inspired understanding and predictions.


"Futurism fantasizes; history realizes."

 

[Hal A Peno]

asde

 

[Revealing Times]

Thanks but I'm not sure how any of that pertains to my comment.

You mean you can't rebut so you're feigning you can't see my point, that anyone can see.

YOUR POINT that Jesus is NOT IN HEAVEN BUT ON EARTH, is blown to smithereens by the fact that the verse also says he is NOT ON EARTH and NOT UNDER THE EARTH.

So where is Jesus at? Is he NOWHERE? You can't get that simple question/inference?

The fact is the verses have nothing to do where Jesus is at. Because he is in Heaven.

Rev. 5:2 And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof? 3 And no man in heaven, NOR IN EARTH, neither UNDER THE EARTH ( So where is Jesus? NOWHERE !! ), was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.

4 And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon. 5 And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.

Please don't pretend you can't understand the above point READ IT two or three times until it sinks in. IF you take it literally then Jesus is NOT IN HEAVEN....NOT ON EARTH....AND NOT UNDER THE EARTH.

So you can''t be right that he is ON EARTH, then ascends to Heaven. The fact is you guys just over-analyze the bible.